Beerus claims that base Goku in BoG couldn't beat Freeza?

[Regarder]

But power level increases every stat. The manga goes against the Daizenshuu in this case

It's probably worth mentioning (this argument might come up) that the critical exception is Ultra-SS, but this is notable because it was such an exception, and in that case getting too bulky made you slower. If there's a disparity based off the manga, then it should make Kibito slower than someone smaller with the same ki, not faster (so he could compensate).

If ki increases every stat roughly evenly, then Kibito being physically weaker than Base Gohan means it should be lesser in all physical ways (do we really want to say he could out-skill Gohan?). If ki can increase stats unevenly because of body conditions - and the manga shows it can - then the evidence of how this works means that due to his bulk Kibito would be even slower than you'd expect, not faster (which has been suggested to get around the implications of that scene).

So yeah, Kibito should be lesser even if you include evidence that contradicts your first sentence. Doesn't say anything about Kai, since Kibito may share a similar role and power relationship with him as Popo does to Kami.

Incidentally, this wouldn't be the first time I think the manga contradicts the Daizenshuu on an issue concerning Gohan (I won't say what it is, to avoid an off-topic [censored word]storm).

[Kaboom]

"All other traits increase along with battle power" is the norm, but there's been other exceptions in the past. Like how Goku was faster than Captain Ginyu despite being a good chunk weaker. I don't find it hard to believe that Saiyans would have an edge in physical strength and toughness compared to most other races.

[xmysticgohanx]

I suppose Goku could've done one of those invisible kaiokens he did vs Freeza

[ImmaDeker]

"All other traits increase along with battle power" is the norm, but there's been other exceptions in the past. Like how Goku was faster than Captain Ginyu despite being a good chunk weaker. I don't find it hard to believe that Saiyans would have an edge in physical strength and toughness compared to most other races.

It's almost as if breaking down battle efficiency into a single, unit-less number with no context is completely stupid.

[Kaboom]

It's almost as if breaking down battle efficiency into a single, unit-less number with no context is completely stupid.

More or less. The way I'd put it is a reminder that the "power level" number often referenced is nothing more than a measurement of one's amount of raw ki. It has no bearing on how talented or capable the person is in using that ki in any given way.

[hyperbeing1]

But power level increases every stat. The manga goes against the Daizenshuu in this case

It's probably worth mentioning (this argument might come up) that the critical exception is Ultra-SS, but this is notable because it was such an exception, and in that case getting too bulky made you slower. If there's a disparity based off the manga, then it should make Kibito slower than someone smaller with the same ki, not faster (so he could compensate).

If ki increases every stat roughly evenly, then Kibito being physically weaker than Base Gohan means it should be lesser in all physical ways (do we really want to say he could out-skill Gohan?). If ki can increase stats unevenly because of body conditions - and the manga shows it can - then the evidence of how this works means that due to his bulk Kibito would be even slower than you'd expect, not faster (which has been suggested to get around the implications of that scene).

So yeah, Kibito should be lesser even if you include evidence that contradicts your first sentence. Doesn't say anything about Kai, since Kibito may share a similar role and power relationship with him as Popo does to Kami.

Incidentally, this wouldn't be the first time I think the manga contradicts the Daizenshuu on an issue concerning Gohan (I won't say what it is, to avoid an off-topic [censored word]storm).

i agree with this and to also add burter, jeice, and raccome were all close in power but burter was described and extremely faster.
and when vegeta fought Freeza he believed he had the edge due to his much greater speed.(though he was wrong) this basically proves while the norm ki increase means all around it does not mean it happens all the time. even character durability seem crazy weird such as majin buu getting shot normally yet goku couldn't even get so much as a scratch in early db.

[khalildh]

Also you guys can't forget that even though a character has a similar amount of ki then another character, the rate of ki used can typically be different. For instance if you are using a technique to increase your speed, but it only uses a small fraction of your ki vs someone who has a lot more ki but is using a less efficient speed increase technique then you would be able to increase the rate of ki drain in order to catch up to the opponent or even get faster than them.

Techniques shouldn't be thought of as a flat number, but as a total plus or minus ki per second. For instance something like this 100% - 1%/second.

[hyperbeing1]

Also you guys can't forget that even though a character has a similar amount of ki then another character, the rate of ki used can typically be different. For instance if you are using a technique to increase your speed, but it only uses a small fraction of your ki vs someone who has a lot more ki but is using a less efficient speed increase technique then you would be able to increase the rate of ki drain in order to catch up to the opponent or even get faster than them.

Techniques shouldn't be thought of as a flat number, but as a total plus or minus ki per second. For instance something like this 100% - 1%/second.

is this kinda like why goku decided to utilize more of the normal ssj transformation and improve his tolerance towards the drain vs using vegetas and trunks transformations where they increase power, but have a cost of increase strain (and in one speed).

[Galan007]

That's actually a good point but it is possible that Beerus could've known about Freeza's final form. Although Freeza didn't transform very often it's implied that he's used the form at least once before. I would assume that he's referring to Final Form Freeza because Goku's power EASILY outclasses Freeza's other forms even with a suppressed power level.

Beerus definitely knew about Frieza's final form. When Beerus first woke up, Whis informed him that a Saiyan had beaten Frieza. He[Whis] then proceeded to show Beerus a 'recording' of the Goku/Frieza battle, wherein Frieza was obviously in his final form.

I'd also like to add that there was absolutely no implication that Goku was suppressing his power when Beerus 'evaluated' him on King Kai's world. This was further solidified when neither King Kai nor Goku himself disagreed with Beerus' assertion that he was weaker than Frieza. On that note, I think the Frieza>base Goku thing makes a lot of sense. During the Namek saga, Goku's PL peaked at 3,000,000(sans kaio ken multipliers and whatnot.) For him to have become more powerful than Frieza by the time of BoG means he would've had to increase his base PL by a factor of about 40x--which is an astronomical leap in power(especially when the Zenkai boosts we saw during the Namek saga went away for the most part after that arc concluded.) That said, once Goku gained the ability to transform into a SSJ(and beyond), ALL of his efforts went into improving upon, and perfecting, those forms. He didn't try and boost his base PL alone, because he wanted to perfect the SSJ-level powers that were required to defeat ALL of the opponents he faced(ie. the Androids/Cell/Buu/etc.)

Heck, even if Goku increased his base PL by 20x between the Namek and Buu sagas(which is still a MASSIVE gain), it 'only' puts his base PL at 60,000,000--or about HALF that of final form Frieza.

[Angelus]

I think the Freeza>base Goku thing makes a lot of sense. During the Namek saga, Goku's PL peaked at 3,000,000(sans kaio ken multipliers and whatnot.) For him to have become more powerful than Freeza by the time of BoG means he would've had to increase his base PL by a factor of about 40x--which is an astronomical leap in power(especially when the Zenkai boosts we saw during the Namek saga went away for the most part after that arc concluded.) That said, once Goku gained the ability to transform into a SSJ(and beyond), ALL of his efforts went into improving upon, and perfecting, those forms. He didn't try and boost his base PL alone, because he wanted to perfect the SSJ-level powers that were required to defeat ALL of the opponents he faced(ie. the Androids/Cell/Buu/etc.)

Heck, even if Goku increased his base PL by 20x between the Namek and Buu sagas(which is still a MASSIVE gain), it 'only' puts his base PL at 60,000,000--or about HALF that of final form Freeza.

Like a Kaioken x20? Then I suppose this means that there's another flaw in the argument that many people are making... saying that the SSJ multiplier has decreased from x100/150 to lower during the later sagas.

[Galan007]

Like a Kaioken x20? Then I suppose this means that there's another flaw in the argument that many people are making... saying that the SSJ multiplier has decreased from x100/150 to lower during the later sagas.

I'm not talking about Goku using kaio ken amps to momentarily attain that level of power in his base form, though.

[Bussani]

"All other traits increase along with battle power" is the norm, but there's been other exceptions in the past. Like how Goku was faster than Captain Ginyu despite being a good chunk weaker. I don't find it hard to believe that Saiyans would have an edge in physical strength and toughness compared to most other races.

Well, isn't it like in an RPG? If your level increases, all of your stats increase, but that doesn't mean a level 10 dwarf has the same stats as a level 10 human. Even two level 10 humans won't have the same stats. Everyone has individual strengths and weaknesses, which could be based not only on their physical bodies, but also on how skilled they are at using their ki to enhance different stats. Maybe some people are just really good at using ki to enhance their speed?

Of course, just like in an RPG, high enough levels tend to trump subtle differences in stats. You have to really specialize in a stat to make up for a difference in levels, and no one in Dragon Ball seems inclined to specialize to that degree.

[khalildh]

"All other traits increase along with battle power" is the norm, but there's been other exceptions in the past. Like how Goku was faster than Captain Ginyu despite being a good chunk weaker. I don't find it hard to believe that Saiyans would have an edge in physical strength and toughness compared to most other races.

Well, isn't it like in an RPG? If your level increases, all of your stats increase, but that doesn't mean a level 10 dwarf has the same stats as a level 10 human. Even two level 10 humans won't have the same stats. Everyone has individual strengths and weaknesses, which could be based not only on their physical bodies, but also on how skilled they are at using their ki to enhance different stats. Maybe some people are just really good at using ki to enhance their speed?

Of course, just like in an RPG, high enough levels tend to trump subtle differences in stats. You have to really specialize in a stat to make up for a difference in levels, and no one in Dragon Ball seems inclined to specialize to that degree.

Except for Burter, that guy was fastest in the Universe.

[Regarder]

Except for Burter, that guy was fastest in the Universe.

[hyperbeing1]

Except for Burter, that guy was fastest in the Universe.

not any more

[kuartus4]

This is post-Buu arc of course, because it's Battle of Gods. Beerus tells base Goku that Goku wouldn't have been able to beat Freeza. Goku then transforms to his SSJ forms. Does this BoG scene confirm this? Beerus did refer to 100% final form Freeza right?

I think the manga implications pretty much rule out the base saiyans being weaker than 100% final form frieza. I think its made clear they became stronger. That being said, now we know Frieza has another transformation:



I think Beerus was saying that base Goku was weaker than that Frieza.

[Darkron2151]

I think the manga implications pretty much rule out the base saiyans being weaker than 100% final form Freeza. I think its made clear they became stronger. That being said, now we know Freeza has another transformation:



I think Beerus was saying that base Goku was weaker than that Freeza.

Why would he be talking about a form of Freeza that didn't even exist at that point? He didn't even know about Super Saiyan until Whis told him about it, so now he can see into the future? I don't see that happening. Plus there are as many "implications" for Freeza > Base Saiyans as for Base Saiyans > Freeza, if not more. Granted, I wanted the Base Saiyans to surpass Freeza as much as the next guy, but the hard evidence just isn't there and the quote from Beerus still stands.

[Hitiro]

I think the manga implications pretty much rule out the base saiyans being weaker than 100% final form Freeza. I think its made clear they became stronger. That being said, now we know Freeza has another transformation:

I think Beerus was saying that base Goku was weaker than that Freeza.

I think this new movie portrays the transformation as a new discovery. If Beerus was saying that Base Goku is weaker than this new transformation of Freeza it wouldn't make much sense why Freeza never used the form on Namek. Also. If you put into comparison a Base Goku being stronger than 100% Freeza then it kind of fizzles out the Genki Dama's power from all the Earthlings being enough to take out Pure Boo. Because SSJ3 Goku, who is on par with Pure Boo, would vastly exceed the collective Ki of the human race.

What I am worried about is how they're going to play off Freeza's revival. Because I would have thought his soul would have been reincarnated by the time of this movie. I would have also thought that the Shenlong couldn't bring back the dead after such a lengthy time.

[Darkron2151]

I think this new movie portrays the transformation as a new discovery. If Beerus was saying that Base Goku is weaker than this new transformation of Freeza it wouldn't make much sense why Freeza never used the form on Namek. Also. If you put into comparison a Base Goku being stronger than 100% Freeza then it kind of fizzles out the Genki Dama's power from all the Earthlings being enough to take out Pure Boo. Because SSJ3 Goku, who is on par with Pure Boo, would vastly exceed the collective Ki of the human race.

To put it in math terms:

• Average Human Power Level: 5
  Population of Earth: ~6 billion (Which is 50x Freeza's max)
  
  5 x ~6 billion = ~30 billion

Now if Goku was, at least, Freeza level during the Buu Saga, and since Kid Buu ~ SSJ3 Goku, then:

• 120 million x 400 (Super Saiyan 3 boost) = 48 billion > 30 billion

The Genki Dama wouldn't be strong enough with Kid Buu, which contradicts Vegeta's statement that the Genki Dama from Earth should be enough, and he was only talking about the humans at that point (let alone Gohan, Piccolo, etc.) since he wanted them to "save themselves" sort of speak.

[kuartus4]

I think the manga implications pretty much rule out the base saiyans being weaker than 100% final form Freeza. I think its made clear they became stronger. That being said, now we know Freeza has another transformation:

I think Beerus was saying that base Goku was weaker than that Freeza.

I think this new movie portrays the transformation as a new discovery. If Beerus was saying that Base Goku is weaker than this new transformation of Freeza it wouldn't make much sense why Freeza never used the form on Namek. Also. If you put into comparison a Base Goku being stronger than 100% Freeza then it kind of fizzles out the Genki Dama's power from all the Earthlings being enough to take out Pure Boo. Because SSJ3 Goku, who is on par with Pure Boo, would vastly exceed the collective Ki of the human race.

What I am worried about is how they're going to play off Freeza's revival. Because I would have thought his soul would have been reincarnated by the time of this movie. I would have also thought that the Shenlong couldn't bring back the dead after such a lengthy time.

Maybe Frieza's other transformation requires a magic ritual that only Sorbet and Tagoma know how to perform, and since neither of these dudes were on Namek, Frieza couldn't access it.