Beerus claims that base Goku in BoG couldn't beat Freeza?

[freezamite]

Except the manga makes mention of Saiyan's hitting their "limit" several times in the manga, especially in the Namek arc, and the Saiyan's always seem to break their limits. We even have King Kai saying that it seems like Goku doesn't have a limit before he even transforms into a SSJ.

But that time there was no way of breaking those limits besides turning into a SSJ. When I say "I've surpassed my limits" it doesn't mean that I do something that would be impossible for me to do, it means that I've reached a point I couldn't reach before.
When I say "50 km/h is a speed I'll never be able to achieve due to my limits" then that's an entirely different thing. It means that for me to reach 50 km/h of speed is impossible no matter what I try to do.

When Vegeta explains his SSJ transformation it's pointed pretty clearly that he couldn't get stronger no matter how hard he trained or what he tried to do. The CONTEXT of the situation points us that he wasn't talking of some temporary limits that could be surpassed but the kind of limits that are simply there. Vegeta trained and trained realizing he wasn't getting stronger until he turned into a SSJ.
Not only that, but the description of a SSJ is “A Super Saiyan appears once every thousand years… a Saiyan who overcomes the wall which no warrior, no matter how gifted, can overcome…“.
If even all those evidences weren't enough, add to it the lack of evidence of Goku ever getting stronger in his base form. What, are you going to say that Vegeta defeating Pui Pui (a guy who thought a 10G gravity would be decisive in his favour) proves that he was above Freezer?
Isn't that still enough? Then what about the fact that the zenkay power, something inherent of any sayan, is lost after they reach the SSJ phase. Why would that change if there's no natural limit to the power a sayan can have?

I'm curious at how you'll try to spin all of this in order to fit your pre-conceived ideas of the series, at least it will be funny I hope.

Also the whole question of why would Goku be training in his base form after he gets his SSJ forms if he couldn't increase his base battle power?

Maybe because we've been told dozens and dozens of times that the SSJ transformation puts strain in the body and it complicates the control of ki? Maybe because Goku can also do warm ups and he doesn't need to start training at SSJ3 from the get go?

[Darkprince410]

Oh yeah, I'm not saying the equation I provided is 100% infallible--like you said: SSJ Goku may have very well have been suppressed. Those numerics just fit strangely well, is all...

Well, it certainly doesn't work though based on what we see between Goku and Yakon. Goku was able to dodge (albeit narrowly) Yakon's attacks, and was then able to land a sufficiently powerful blow to him. That suggests that Goku's strength was at least close to Yakon's 800. As for his transformation, given that he seemingly didn't "need" the light, and only wanted to transform just to show Yakon that he could generate light, suggests he was holding back a good deal, and that the 3,000 was just whatever his strength had settled on at the time.

Since base Goku never increases his strength beyond the Namek saga I think this was pretty much a given...

The situation during the Buu Saga strongly contradicts the notion that Goku and the others never grew stronger in their base forms. During the start of the Cell Saga, it was established that Vegeta's strength was likely above Goku's.

Piccolo: “…But…It seems that Vegeta really has obtained power surpassing Goku now that he’s become a Super Saiyan…He just might be able to take care of them like he says…”

Now, if Goku's base battle power never increased from the Freeza Saga, and that nothing is suggested that the multipliers for the Super Saiya-jin transformations varied for different individuals, that would mean that Vegeta's Ssj2 form should have been above Goku's. However, as we see, Vegeta readily admitted that Goku was more powerful than he was, which was why he accepted Babi-di's control

Vegeta: “…No, that’s not it…I think I did perform more special training than you, but you’re a greater genius than I am…No matter how much time passed, this gap wouldn’t change…I realized this, when you fought with that monster Babidi sent…It was a shock…That’s why I secretly resolved myself…[ ] At the tournament, the people who knew that pair who Babidi made into his underlings said that they had become far stronger than before…I remembered that, and I thought…That if I were taken over by him too, then the gap between you and me would vanish…And I was right…”

As such, for Goku to be stronger than Vegeta, when Vegeta was stronger than him before, would mean that Goku's base strength increased even further since that time.

[Hitiro]

Except the manga makes mention of Saiyan's hitting their "limit" several times in the manga, especially in the Namek arc, and the Saiyan's always seem to break their limits. We even have King Kai saying that it seems like Goku doesn't have a limit before he even transforms into a SSJ.

But that time there was no way of breaking those limits besides turning into a SSJ. When I say "I've surpassed my limits" it doesn't mean that I do something that would be impossible for me to do, it means that I've reached a point I couldn't reach before.

What do you mean at the time there was no way of breaking those limits? It has been mentioned several times in the manga that these Saiyan's have supposedly surpassed their limits.

Chapter: 270 (DBZ 76), P12.5
Narrator: “Even Goku hasn’t realized…That somewhere along the line he’s acquired enough power to surpass the level of Saiyan limits…”

First example is Goku getting off the ship on Namek.

Chapter: 289 (DBZ 95), P6.1-2
Context: after Jheese freaks out over Vegeta's new battle power
Vegeta: “That’s right…I’ve surpassed Saiyan limits, and my strength is still increasing more and more…The truth is that I’ve realized it too…That this extension of my power isn’t merely what you’d call giftedness…In other words…I’m steadily drawing near…to becoming a Super Saiyan!”

Second example is Vegeta's fight with Jheese.

Chapter: 306 (DBZ 112), P12.2
Context: after he fully heals
Goku: “I’ve gotten strong! My power just keeps gushing forth…! Unbelievable…! And here I thought I was already about at my limits…This is enough to scare even me…”

Chapter: 307 (DBZ 113), P8.2-3
Vegeta: “He’s not the same Kakarot as before…S-seems he’s finally overcome the wall of his limits…Is he a Super Saiyan…!?”

Here are another two examples of Goku supposedly being close to his limits and Vegeta says that he's finally overcome his limits.

Chapter: 309 (DBZ 115), P2.1
Context: after learning that Freeza killed Vegeta and is fighting Goku
Yamcha: “Da…damn it…That bastard’s too much for even Goku…”
Kaio: “They’re having a good match…[ ] The Saiyans are an odd group…No, maybe it’s just Goku…His strength has no limit…He’s like a completely different person than when he trained here…I don’t really understand him…”

We even have Kaio saying that Goku has no limit, he just keeps getting stronger.

Chapter: 295 (DBZ 101), P13.5-6, P14.1
Context: after Freeza and Vegeta grapple for awhile, after Vegeta said they could win
Freeza: “I see…Seems that wasn’t a complete lie…”
Gohan: “It-it’s true…! If we 3 fight together, we might really be able to manage something…H-he really is absolutely incredible, but we’ve gotten better too…!”
Kuririn: “I-I see…! Since coming here Vegeta’s acquired such strength that he seems to have even further surpassed his limits…B-but…F-Freeza is oddly calm…Why?...”

We have Kuririn saying that it seems that Vegeta has even further surpassed his limits.

When I say "50 km/h is a speed I'll never be able to achieve due to my limits" then that's an entirely different thing. It means that for me to reach 50 km/h of speed is impossible no matter what I try to do.

You say this but whenever a Saiyan has supposedly reached their limits they surpass them. As far as we are aware the Saiyan's have no limits because they keep breaking them. So even if you say Vegeta can't achieve 50 km/h because he has reached his limits that doesn't mean anything seeing as we have tons of examples of the Saiyan's exceeding their limits.

When Vegeta explains his SSJ transformation it's pointed pretty clearly that he couldn't get stronger no matter how hard he trained or what he tried to do. The CONTEXT of the situation points us that he wasn't talking of some temporary limits that could be surpassed but the kind of limits that are simply there. Vegeta trained and trained realizing he wasn't getting stronger until he turned into a SSJ.

When Vegeta talks about his SSJ transformation he only says he realized his limits. Not that he had actually reached them. And nowhere does it say that he couldn't get stronger no matter how hard he trained.

Chapter 343 (DBZ 149), P11.1-5
Kuririn: “Th-that’s impossible…! Wh-why can he become a Super Saiyan…?! Don’t you have to have a tranquil heart to become one…!?”
Vegeta: “I was tranquil…Tranquil and pure…Pure evil, that is…I wished to get strong just by training earnestly…And so I went through stupendous training over and over again…Eventually, I realized my limits…Through my anger towards myself, I suddenly awakened…into a Super Saiyan!”

Where in this dialogue does Vegeta say he reached his limit? Yes, he says he realized his limits. But that doesn't mean he had reached the limits of his power as a regular Saiyan.

Not only that, but the description of a SSJ is “A Super Saiyan appears once every thousand years… a Saiyan who overcomes the wall which no warrior, no matter how gifted, can overcome…“.
If even all those evidences weren't enough, add to it the lack of evidence of Goku ever getting stronger in his base form. What, are you going to say that Vegeta defeating Pui Pui (a guy who thought a 10G gravity would be decisive in his favour) proves that he was above Freezer?

Vegeta says this but he says Goku had already overcame this wall before the Ginyu fight. Yet after healing in the healing tank he came back even stronger again. Can you prove to me that Goku didn't get stronger in his base form? Goku was fighting against an enraged Oob at the EoZ yet Goku held his own in his base form. If his battle power hadn't increased since the Namek arc how would he be able to take blows from Oob who could rival SSJ3 Goku from Boo arc?

Isn't that still enough? Then what about the fact that the zenkay power, something inherent of any sayan, is lost after they reach the SSJ phase. Why would that change if there's no natural limit to the power a sayan can have?

Who says the Zenkai's are gone? Zenkai's could be so infinitesimal they may as well be gone but nothing in the manga directly states they are gone. And when do we even see any near death experiences past the Cell Games anyway? The only person you can say could have received a Zenkai is Gohan. But Gohan had achieved a power up drawing literally all of his potential out beyond his limits anyway.

I'm curious at how you'll try to spin all of this in order to fit your pre-conceived ideas of the series, at least it will be funny I hope.

Frankly you're the one trying to spin things in order to fit your pre-conceived ideas. I have been logical and neutral on all of my points. You're the only person here who can't admit he could be wrong and as I have said in several posts that I could be wrong so before you start making up rubbish like I'm lying or contradicting myself I would appreciate it if you keep you're insults to yourself.

Also the whole question of why would Goku be training in his base form after he gets his SSJ forms if he couldn't increase his base battle power?

Maybe because we've been told dozens and dozens of times that the SSJ transformation puts strain in the body and it complicates the control of ki? Maybe because Goku can also do warm ups and he doesn't need to start training at SSJ3 from the get go?

At this point the SSJ transformation puts a tiny amount of strain on the body. Goku and Gohan demonstrated months worth of maintaining the SSJ transformation in the RoSaT so that is a pretty poor excuse. They also demonstrated a further 10 days up to the Cell Games being just SSJ's. And considering this theory of yours, why would it matter if it puts a strain on the body? If Goku can't gain anything from training in base form then there is absolutely no reason for him to be doing it. Training as a SSJ heavily outweighs the negative effects of the transformations if Goku were to not gain anything in his base form. Warms ups are fine but given the fact that he could be a SSJ for extremely long periods of time it would be much better for him to warm up as a SSJ and then go to SSJ3 after his warm ups because at least he would gain some benefits from doing warm ups as a SSJ.

[miguelnuva1]

Personally I feel that Beerus is just trying to bluff Goku into transforming because he wants to see the SSJ levels.

[freezamite]

The situation during the Buu Saga strongly contradicts the notion that Goku and the others never grew stronger in their base forms. During the start of the Cell Saga, it was established that Vegeta's strength was likely above Goku's.

Piccolo: “…But…It seems that Vegeta really has obtained power surpassing Goku now that he’s become a Super Saiyan…He just might be able to take care of them like he says…”

Now, if Goku's base battle power never increased from the Freeza Saga, and that nothing is suggested that the multipliers for the Super Saiya-jin transformations varied for different individuals, that would mean that Vegeta's Ssj2 form should have been above Goku's. However, as we see, Vegeta readily admitted that Goku was more powerful than he was, which was why he accepted Babi-di's control.

Vegeta: “…No, that’s not it…I think I did perform more special training than you, but you’re a greater genius than I am…No matter how much time passed, this gap wouldn’t change…I realized this, when you fought with that monster Babidi sent…It was a shock…That’s why I secretly resolved myself…[ ] At the tournament, the people who knew that pair who Babidi made into his underlings said that they had become far stronger than before…I remembered that, and I thought…That if I were taken over by him too, then the gap between you and me would vanish…And I was right…”

As such, for Goku to be stronger than Vegeta, when Vegeta was stronger than him before, would mean that Goku's base strength increased even further since that time.

The SSJ multiplier varied depending on the control the sayans had over the transformation. Both Goku when fought Cell and Vegeta when fought #18 were SSJ but one was much stronger and not because their base states were so different but because the mastering of the SSJ forms was different.
During the Bu saga Goku had reached SSJ3, and even when he only used SSJ2 to kill Yakon it was a level of SSJ2 that vegeta hadn't still reached on his own.

Your premise is that: "and that nothing is suggested that the multipliers for the Super Saiya-jin transformations varied for different individuals" and while that's true (there hasn't been a difference stated between individuals once they reach a certain degree of mastering a given transformation), it's also true that the different characters reach those points of "SSJ mastery" at different points in the series.

Strength Checker wrote:
Chapter: 270 (DBZ 76), P12.5
Narrator: “Even Goku hasn’t realized…That somewhere along the line he’s acquired enough power to surpass the level of Saiyan limits…”
First example is Goku getting off the ship on Namek.

Strength Checker wrote:
Chapter: 289 (DBZ 95), P6.1-2
Context: after Jheese freaks out over Vegeta's new battle power
Vegeta: “That’s right…I’ve surpassed Saiyan limits, and my strength is still increasing more and more…The truth is that I’ve realized it too…That this extension of my power isn’t merely what you’d call giftedness…In other words…I’m steadily drawing near…to becoming a Super Saiyan!”
Second example is Vegeta's fight with Jheese.

But if Vegeta had surpassed the Saiyan limits back then why was he still a saiyan? Well, because he wasn't speaking of the "limits" in the potential of a saiyan but the limits most sayan couldn't surpass. Nappa was considered an elite between the saiyans with a power of 8.000. Goku reached Namek with a power of 90.000, it's obvious that he reached a point that was beyond the limit most sayans could reach. Vegeta had reached this point as well.

Those "limits" where surpassed by the sayans, and in most of the quotes it's Vegeta himself wondering if he was already a super-saiyan considering how strong he was compared to the rest of the saiyans.

But when one speaks of the limits in this way:
"I wished to get strong just by training earnestly…And so I went through stupendous training over and over again…Eventually, I realized my limits…Through my anger towards myself, I suddenly awakened…into a Super Saiyan!”
It's of course not the same. While the previous quotes spoke about limits that had been surpassed, NOW HE SPEAKS OF LIMITS HE WASN'T ABLE TO SURPASS NO MATTER HOW HARD HE TRAINED. Look, I've given you tons of examples of situations where the word limit had the meaning you want to give it and I've also given you examples of where this words means something else.
It's obvious that if you insist in your "mistake" is only with the aim to report me once I tell you something in the lines of "learn how to read" or whatever. I won't fall for it, sorry.

You say this but whenever a Saiyan has supposedly reached their limits they surpass them.

Not in that case without turning SSJ as it's stated in the manga.

When Vegeta talks about his SSJ transformation he only says he realized his limits. Not that he had actually reached them.

Wow that's even more of a spin that I could hope. So now it seems Vegeta realized his limits without reaching them, and he got angry why exactly? How could he even realize his limits without reaching them? He asked for Bulma to do some kind of cientific check on his body so he could know his maximum potential? It's obvious that you're trolling at this point. It's just a nonsensical excuse after the other...

[Kaboom]

It's obvious that you're trolling at this point. It's just a nonsensical excuse after the other...

This type of attitude and response from you ends now. Your peers are not deluding themselves or "trolling" just by disagreeing with you.

[Darkprince410]

The SSJ multiplier varied depending on the control the sayans had over the transformation. Both Goku when fought Cell and Vegeta when fought #18 were SSJ but one was much stronger and not because their base states were so different but because the mastering of the SSJ forms was different.

It's stated though that the only difference between Goku's Ssj form when he fought Cell and Vegeta's Ssj form when he fought #18 was that Goku's form reduced the strain and drain of the form considerably.

“They’ve judged that state as the best! If they get used to that as a matter of habit, then even if they raise their battle power, the strain on their body is very small! [ ] They’ve thought this through…”

So whether they're suppressed or at their maximum output, the strain is negligible. Nothing is stated or even remotely suggested that the Super Saiya-jin transformations are dynamic in their multipliers, and trying to make the entirety of the Z franchise work by trying to suggest the multipliers are dynamic is far more difficult than making it work under the premise that the multipliers are static, and that their base forms just jumped higher than the Freeza Saga numbers you believed they were at for the remainder of the story.

[freezamite]

It's stated though that the only difference between Goku's Ssj form when he fought Cell and Vegeta's Ssj form when he fought #18 was that Goku's form reduced the strain and drain of the form considerably.

Yes, that's what the mastering of the SSJ consists in, in reducing the strain the SSJ form puts to someone's body which in turn means that higher power levels are achieved (look at Nappa for an example of that).

So whether they're suppressed or at their maximum output, the strain is negligible. Nothing is stated or even remotely suggested that the Super Saiya-jin transformations are dynamic in their multipliers

If the base state can't be further increased, and the SSJ forms can be trained to perfect them, it's obvious to me that what's affecting the multiplier is the perfected SSJ form and not the base state.

and trying to make the entirety of the Z franchise work by trying to suggest the multipliers are dynamic is far more difficult than making it work under the premise that the multipliers are static, and that their base forms just jumped higher than the Freeza Saga numbers you believed they were at for the remainder of the story.

This is where we disagree. I encourage you to put your take on the series as a whole in terms of the power Freezer had and you'll see that the "fixed SSJ multipliers" are nearly impossible to justify, while the dynamic SSJ multipliers are really easy. I mean, can you say that post ROSAT Vegeta increased his base state instead of mastering the SSJ further than he did previously? Why is it that if what it's constantly changing is the base state power we're constantly seeing variations on the SSJ transformations instead of the same transformation with increased base powers to back it? Why is it that Goku trains the SSJ instead of his base state if there's no gain in strength by training the SSJ?

The whole concept of the SSJ implies the base state has a limit unless of course we go with your theories about Bulma doing a scientific experiment on Vegeta in order for him to realize what his limits are without him never reaching them... but then I want some manga facts to back this theory or whatever other explanation you have to justify your stance.

[Darkprince410]

This is where we disagree. I encourage you to put your take on the series as a whole in terms of the power Freezer had and you'll see that the "fixed SSJ multipliers" are nearly impossible to justify, while the dynamic SSJ multipliers are really easy. I mean, can you say that post ROSAT Vegeta increased his base state instead of mastering the SSJ further than he did previously? Why is it that if what it's constantly changing is the base state power we're constantly seeing variations on the SSJ transformations instead of the same transformation with increased base powers to back it?

The thing is though is I have worked along the entire course of Z from the Freeza Saga onward and had no issues with static multipliers and base battle powers going up above the 3,000,000 of Goku's base in the Freeza Saga, while still sitting below Freeza's 120,000,000.

Why is it that Goku trains the SSJ instead of his base state if there's no gain in strength by training the SSJ?

For starters, training Super Saiya-jin is still going to result in an increase in the base form. Second, there are only three times we're shown Goku training after his Ssj transformation: once at some point when training with Piccolo and Gohan for the jinzou-ningen, when he was mastering the Ssj form with Gohan to reduce strain, and then his afterlife training. Only in that first situation is he a Super Saiya-jin for a non-specific reason, but even then it is likely that it was to help bolster the strength gain of Piccolo and Gohan, while still providing him with training.

Furthermore, if Goku's base couldn't increase further, then why is Goku shown training in his base form during his afterlife training in the Buu Saga? It was his base form that he was initially training in, and only transformed when North Kaiou began showboating to South Kaiou about his abilities. If his base battle power couldn't increase at all, such training would be absolutely irrelevant.

You commented earlier that there being multiple Ssj forms suggests them to be dynamic, when to me that suggests them to be static more than anything. What's the use of Ssj2 if your Ssj form's strength could be risen to equal it while your base form remained the same? Them being static would indicate a clear advantage over the previous form in terms of power, that no matter how strong your Super Saiya-jin form was, you would still grow stronger by transforming into a Super Saiya-jin 2.

[Hitiro]

But if Vegeta had surpassed the Saiyan limits back then why was he still a saiyan? Well, because he wasn't speaking of the "limits" in the potential of a saiyan but the limits most sayan couldn't surpass. Nappa was considered an elite between the saiyans with a power of 8.000. Goku reached Namek with a power of 90.000, it's obvious that he reached a point that was beyond the limit most sayans could reach. Vegeta had reached this point as well.

How do you know they are two different things? What in the story tells you Vegeta is talking about different limits? The limits have always been the same before. Now what Vegeta means by limits has suddenly changed to verify your opinion? Like I said, Vegeta never says he couldn't get stronger. So why are you making the assumption that Vegeta is talking about different limits? It seems pretty much like guess-work to me. Does Vegeta tell us he can't surpass these newly imposed limits? Can you give me evidence that this limit he is talking about is the very limit he will never be able to pass without referencing his quote about becoming a SSJ? Because his quote about becoming as SSJ is very vague. He tells us he has realized his limits but I don't see him saying he can't get stronger. Neither do I see him saying he can't surpass these limits like he has several times before.

Those "limits" where surpassed by the sayans, and in most of the quotes it's Vegeta himself wondering if he was already a super-saiyan considering how strong he was compared to the rest of the saiyans.

Except we have a quote from the Narrator saying that Goku surpassed the Saiyan limits. Yet he still gets stronger?

You say this but whenever a Saiyan has supposedly reached their limits they surpass them.

Not in that case without turning SSJ as it's stated in the manga.

Can you prove it? Base Goku seems to fend off an enraged Oob who could potentially fight at SSJ3 Goku(Boo arc) level. So I guess an enraged Oob is weak then? I also guess that Piccolo and Trunks were wrong about Base Gotenks being stronger than before as well? Base Gotenks clearly didn't get any stronger because as you seem to state once a Saiyan has obtained the SSJ transformation they are at their limits in their base form. Correct? I also guess that Goten could never beat Trunks unless he used SSJ. Right? Even though nothing like this was ever said before they had to fight each other. Also the opening chapter of the tournament we see Goten, Trunks, Gohan and Vegeta all training in their base forms. Clearly they are just warming up, right? Also ignoring the fact that Goku had also, in one of the previous chapters, was also training in his base form with 10 tons. Just over half the weight of what Vegeta weighed when he was training at 300x Earth's gravity before he became a SSJ. Because people always bench-press at weights probably half their maximum for a warm-up. Right?

Wow that's even more of a spin that I could hope. So now it seems Vegeta realized his limits without reaching them, and he got angry why exactly? How could he even realize his limits without reaching them? He asked for Bulma to do some kind of cientific check on his body so he could know his maximum potential? It's obvious that you're trolling at this point. It's just a nonsensical excuse after the other...

Chapter: 306 (DBZ 112), P12.2
Context: after he fully heals
Goku: “I’ve gotten strong! My power just keeps gushing forth…! Unbelievable…! And here I thought I was already about at my limits…This is enough to scare even me…”

How does Goku think he is about at his limits? Kuririn says something like this too.

Chapter: 265 (DBZ 71), P4.6, P5.1-4, P6.1-2
Context: Great Elder draws out Kuririn’s hidden power.
Great Elder: “By the way, despite being an Earthling, you have outstanding power…But it’s a shame that you have power still dormant…”
Kuririn: “Th-that can’t be…! I don’t have that sort of power or nothin’…! I’ve trained pretty harshly…I think even now I’ve already about surpassed my limits…[*the Great Elder draws his power out*] Aw…awawa…! Po…power…power…! Ehyaah! I’m bursting with power! Amazing! Unbelievable, I feel as if I’ve come back to life!”

So how do they seem to realize their limits without reaching them? Did they also ask Bulma to do some kind of scientific check on their bodies to come to the same result?

[freezamite]

The thing is though is I have worked along the entire course of Z from the Freeza Saga onward and had no issues with static multipliers and base battle powers going up above the 3,000,000 of Goku's base in the Freeza Saga, while still sitting below Freeza's 120,000,000.

Wow, more like 300.000 for Goku and 12.000.000 for Freezer don't you think? 120.000.000 for Freezer... how many units of power does Goku SSJ has in your opinion?

For starters, training Super Saiya-jin is still going to result in an increase in the base form. Second, there are only three times we're shown Goku training after his Ssj transformation: once at some point when training with Piccolo and Gohan for the jinzou-ningen, when he was mastering the Ssj form with Gohan to reduce strain, and then his afterlife training. Only in that first situation is he a Super Saiya-jin for a non-specific reason, but even then it is likely that it was to help bolster the strength gain of Piccolo and Gohan, while still providing him with training.

The question is, why do they train the SSJ (the whole ROSAT sub-saga) if the SSJ can't improve at all unless you go SSJ2 which is obviously something no one achieved prior to the Cell games. I mean, why would Goku focus his training to "master the SSJ" if the SSJ is something static that can't be improved. Do you think Goku's power up after he went out of the ROSAT had nothing to do with him training the SSJ form and only because he increases something the manga states it can't be increased?

Furthermore, if Goku's base couldn't increase further, then why is Goku shown training in his base form during his afterlife training in the Buu Saga? It was his base form that he was initially training in, and only transformed when North Kaiou began showboating to South Kaiou about his abilities. If his base battle power couldn't increase at all, such training would be absolutely irrelevant.

Was this all the training Goku did? The base form has qualities the SSJ forms lack, so it's logical for Goku to train in his base form if he wants to either warm up or concentrate on those aspects of the training.

You commented earlier that there being multiple Ssj forms suggests them to be dynamic, when to me that suggests them to be static more than anything. What's the use of Ssj2 if your Ssj form's strength could be risen to equal it while your base form remained the same? Them being static would indicate a clear advantage over the previous form in terms of power, that no matter how strong your Super Saiya-jin form was, you would still grow stronger by transforming into a Super Saiya-jin 2.

So according to you the base state should also be static, why would they transform if the base state can also become stronger? The SSJ was dynamic as well as the SSJ2 and SSJ3 and any other SSJ form, it's just that SSJ2 reaches a point that SSJ can't never reach and the same for SSJ2 and SSJ3. In fact, Vegeta's SSJ dai-whatever (the SSJ form Vegeta shows post-ROSAT) is nothing less than SSJ2 wanna-be. In terms of how the body transforms, that transformation should be tied with the SSJ2 instead of the SSJ like most people currently does based on the power it had.

How do you know they are two different things?

Because the manga is telling me this. I mean, if the manga says "they have surpassed the limits" it means that those limits were something that could be surpassed.
If Vegeta says that he couldn't surpass his limits, and that this fact triggered in him the same kind of rage that turns to be a power-up, it means that he ended totally frustrated trying to become stronger while being unable to.
Why would Vegeta enrage if he was becoming stronger and stronger according to you? And how would he realize his limits? Did he ask Bulma to check him?

Except we have a quote from the Narrator saying that Goku surpassed the Saiyan limits. Yet he still gets stronger?

Yes, and also Vegeta. But those limits had already been surpassed right? So they could be surpassed, right? And not only by Goku, by Vegeta and Gohan as well, so they weren't the kind of limits that can't be surpassed, like the ones Vegeta describes when he explain his SSJ transformation.

[Hitiro]

How do you know they are two different things?

Because the manga is telling me this. I mean, if the manga says "they have surpassed the limits" it means that those limits were something that could be surpassed.
If Vegeta says that he couldn't surpass his limits, and that this fact triggered in him the same kind of rage that turns to be a power-up, it means that he ended totally frustrated trying to become stronger while being unable to.

Again, where does Vegeta say he couldn't surpass his limits? What page? What chapter? It isn't a hard question.

Why would Vegeta enrage if he was becoming stronger and stronger according to you? And how would he realize his limits? Did he ask Bulma to check him?

To me, in my personal opinion, he is getting angry because no matter how hard he trained he still didn't achieve Super Saiyan. That was his goal. As for the rest I have already told you. You just aren't reading or are just choosing to ignore what I say. Goku and Kuririn also say they are close to their limits. So did they ask Bulma to check for them?

Except we have a quote from the Narrator saying that Goku surpassed the Saiyan limits. Yet he still gets stronger?

Yes, and also Vegeta. But those limits had already been surpassed right? So they could be surpassed, right? And not only by Goku, by Vegeta and Gohan as well, so they weren't the kind of limits that can't be surpassed, like the ones Vegeta describes when he explain his SSJ transformation.

Except the only basis for the kinds of limits that can't be surpassed is your own opinion. Does Vegeta actually say anywhere in the manga that he can't get stronger in his base form?

Also you seem to have ignored a whole section of my post. Let me label it out easier for you. Because either you are getting extremely forgetful or you just don't want to answer the obvious. That Saiyan's can still increase their base strength after SSJ is obtained.

You say this but whenever a Saiyan has supposedly reached their limits they surpass them.

Not in that case without turning SSJ as it's stated in the manga.

Can you prove it?

1) Base Goku seems to fend off an enraged Oob who could potentially fight at SSJ3 Goku(Boo arc) level. So I guess an enraged Oob is weak then?

2) I also guess that Piccolo and Trunks were wrong about Base Gotenks being stronger than before as well? Base Gotenks clearly didn't get any stronger because as you seem to state once a Saiyan has obtained the SSJ transformation they are at their limits in their base form. Correct?

3) I also guess that Goten could never beat Trunks unless he used SSJ. Right? Even though nothing like this was ever said before they had to fight each other.

4) Also the opening chapter of the tournament we see Goten, Trunks, Gohan and Vegeta all training in their base forms. Clearly they are just warming up, right? Because Toriyama likes drawing his characters warming up I guess?

5) Also ignoring the fact that Goku, in one of the previous chapters, was also training in his base form with 10 tons. Just over half the weight of what Vegeta weighed when he was training at 300x Earth's gravity before he became a SSJ. Because people always bench-press at weights probably half their maximum for a warm-up. Right?

[kuartus4]

Since base Goku never increases his strength beyond the Namek saga I think this was pretty much a given...

This is highly unlikely I think. For one, it is my opinion that by the mecha Freeza saga AT had retconned the 50x ssj multiplier to something like 4x for the rest of the series. I guess he though he overdid it or something. And with that retcon he inflated the base powers of the saiyans and Piccolo as well. The first clue for this is how Goku thinks it is conceivable that either Vegeta or Piccolo could kill Mecha Freeza, who was probably at 50-70 % and a King Cold who was probably somewhere around that level or possibly a bit more. Even with a Vegeta at 3 million and a Piccolo at 2 million+ after 1 and a half years of training, they would be at ant Level for Freeza and his dad, and it would be inconceivable for Goku to even suggest that they beat them.

The second clue for this is how Dr. Gero reveals that absorbing the weakest base saiyan(gohan), a suppressed Piccolo who was probably at base saiyan level, and two humans(Krillin and Tien) who most likely were below base saiyans, would put him above SSJ Vegeta, when Gero was so far below Vegeta that even Piccolo>>>Dr. Gero(+ Suppressed Piccolo). It seems clear to me that base was now MUCH closer to SSJ. Its the only way to make the numbers work. So there doesn't seem to be any way for Base level to have stayed the same since Namek.

Not only were the base powers inflated post Namek, but I thinks its made clear by the power scaling in the android and Cell arc that base powers would have to surpass Frieza with only a 4x ssj multiplier. They most likely surpassed Android 18 as well. After all Teen Gohan though he had a shot of winning the tournament in base, even after he invited Android 18 to participate.

[Darkprince410]

Wow, more like 300.000 for Goku and 12.000.000 for Freezer don't you think? 120.000.000 for Freezer... how many units of power does Goku SSJ has in your opinion?

No, because in a situation of him not utilizing the Kaiou-ken in any form, he was still able to go toe to toe against the same Freeza who had surpassed Vegeta, who had surpassed Freeza's 3rd form, who had in turn surpassed Piccolo, who likewise had surpassed Freeza's second form, which was stated, by him, to be over a million if a device existed to read his battle power.

I have Goku in the low hundred million range, at about the 150 million mark that the Daizenshuu established.

The question is, why do they train the SSJ (the whole ROSAT sub-saga) if the SSJ can't improve at all unless you go SSJ2 which is obviously something no one achieved prior to the Cell games. I mean, why would Goku focus his training to "master the SSJ" if the SSJ is something static that can't be improved. Do you think Goku's power up after he went out of the ROSAT had nothing to do with him training the SSJ form and only because he increases something the manga states it can't be increased?

The manga never stated that the base form cannot be increased. The whole point of his training with Gohan in the Room of Spirit and Time was to reduce the stress and strain of the form, so that, unlike the earlier times he used it against Freeza and #19, it wouldn't wear him out near as much, and thus he'd be able to fight for longer without wearing out. The multiplier for the form is not changing, but because the Ssj form is growing stronger, the base form is growing stronger in proportion to him.

Was this all the training Goku did? The base form has qualities the SSJ forms lack, so it's logical for Goku to train in his base form if he wants to either warm up or concentrate on those aspects of the training.

He was utilizing weights on his arms and legs to train, which is a natural progression of the turtle shells and weighted clothing he utilized in Dragon Ball and early Z to increase his strength and speed. Given that nothing is stated or suggested otherwise, the training he was undergoing was to make his base form stronger.

So according to you the base state should also be static, why would they transform if the base state can also become stronger? The SSJ was dynamic as well as the SSJ2 and SSJ3 and any other SSJ form, it's just that SSJ2 reaches a point that SSJ can't never reach and the same for SSJ2 and SSJ3. In fact, Vegeta's SSJ dai-whatever (the SSJ form Vegeta shows post-ROSAT) is nothing less than SSJ2 wanna-be. In terms of how the body transforms, that transformation should be tied with the SSJ2 instead of the SSJ like most people currently does based on the power it had.

I never said that it should also be static. The only thing that is static is the multiplier to the form. Any increase to the base form is going to automatically make the Ssj, Ssj2, and Ssj3 forms stronger, and no matter how strong you made your Ssj form, your Ssj2 form would still be superior to it in terms of power. The Ssj 2nd Grade form that Vegeta demonstrated wasn't tied with Ssj2, and at best sits in a transitional section between Ssj and Ssj2 in terms of their multipliers. If any of those sub "forms" were going to be equal in strength to Ssj2, it'd be Ssj 3rd Grade, the form Trunks used, with the main difference between the two being that it effectively killed the form's speed and was too draining.

[Hitiro]

This is highly unlikely I think. For one, it is my opinion that by the mecha Freeza saga AT had retconned the 50x ssj multiplier to something like 4x for the rest of the series. I guess he though he overdid it or something.

I very much doubt the multiplier would be retconned so harshly. Because that would make Kaioken x10 and x20 viable again. Why would he do this? Also the fact that Saiyan's are still weaker than Freeza's 100% according to the BoG movie. So a 4x increase from the SSJ multiplier would put Cell and the Androids at marginally stronger than Freeza at best.

So according to you the base state should also be static, why would they transform if the base state can also become stronger? The SSJ was dynamic as well as the SSJ2 and SSJ3 and any other SSJ form, it's just that SSJ2 reaches a point that SSJ can't never reach and the same for SSJ2 and SSJ3. In fact, Vegeta's SSJ dai-whatever (the SSJ form Vegeta shows post-ROSAT) is nothing less than SSJ2 wanna-be. In terms of how the body transforms, that transformation should be tied with the SSJ2 instead of the SSJ like most people currently does based on the power it had.

Toriyama said in an interview this year that Goku would probably stop using SSJ2 and SSJ3 and stick to using SSJ.

Goku endlessly keeps getting stronger, with Super Saiyan 3 in the manga and Super Saiyan 4 in the anime; does Super Saiyan keep getting limitlessly stronger too? Might we eventually see things such as a Super Saiyan 5…?!

Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered-up variations of Super Saiyan. After the fight with Beerus, Goku realized that mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength, so I think he probably won’t become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more.

He also says Goku would continue to master is normal(base) state. So Goku clearly can increase his strength in his normal state.

[Low Tone G]

This is highly unlikely I think. For one, it is my opinion that by the mecha Freeza saga AT had retconned the 50x ssj multiplier to something like 4x for the rest of the series. I guess he though he overdid it or something.

I very much doubt the multiplier would be retconned so harshly. Because that would make Kaioken x10 and x20 viable again. Why would he do this? Also the fact that Saiyan's are still weaker than Freeza's 100% according to the BoG movie. So a 4x increase from the SSJ multiplier would put Cell and the Androids at marginally stronger than Freeza at best.

So according to you the base state should also be static, why would they transform if the base state can also become stronger? The SSJ was dynamic as well as the SSJ2 and SSJ3 and any other SSJ form, it's just that SSJ2 reaches a point that SSJ can't never reach and the same for SSJ2 and SSJ3. In fact, Vegeta's SSJ dai-whatever (the SSJ form Vegeta shows post-ROSAT) is nothing less than SSJ2 wanna-be. In terms of how the body transforms, that transformation should be tied with the SSJ2 instead of the SSJ like most people currently does based on the power it had.

Toriyama said in an interview this year that Goku would probably stop using SSJ2 and SSJ3 and stick to using SSJ.

Goku endlessly keeps getting stronger, with Super Saiyan 3 in the manga and Super Saiyan 4 in the anime; does Super Saiyan keep getting limitlessly stronger too? Might we eventually see things such as a Super Saiyan 5…?!

Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered-up variations of Super Saiyan. After the fight with Beerus, Goku realized that mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength, so I think he probably won’t become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more.

He also says Goku would continue to master is normal(base) state. So Goku clearly can increase his strength in his normal state.

Maybe Goku can increase his Base strength, but only in that condition if he has God Ki absorbed. Toriyama didn't speak about other Saiyans, maybe Goku is special, because he has God energy.

[Hitiro]

Maybe Goku can increase his Base strength, but only in that condition if he has God Ki absorbed. Toriyama didn't speak about other Saiyans, maybe Goku is special, because he has God energy.

Under the assumption Goku kept God Ki. He could have absorbed it into his regular Ki supply for all we know. Nothing is clear. The fact remains that he can still increase his base's power. Whether it be through God Ki or regular Ki. Considering how the Saiyan's were training in their base forms for the tournament in the Boo arc I still think that the Saiyan's can still keep increasing their base power. Otherwise there would be no benefit in them training in their base forms.

[kuartus4]

I very much doubt the multiplier would be retconned so harshly. Because that would make Kaioken x10 and x20 viable again. Why would he do this? Also the fact that Saiyan's are still weaker than Freeza's 100% according to the BoG movie. So a 4x increase from the SSJ multiplier would put Cell and the Androids at marginally stronger than Freeza at best.

Like I said in the comment you quoted, AT probably though he had overdone it with a 50x ssj multiplier. He is quoted in the Daiz after the manga was finished that he thought x50 is excessive, and I believe that probably reflects how he felt after the Namek saga as well, judging from the implications in the following arcs that he had changed the ssj multiplier to be much lower. I think 4x for the ssj multiplier fits well post Namek. As for kaioken, I think AT never thought about it again. Evidenced by how he never gave Cell the technique when logically he would have had it and used it, or why Goku never used it in combination with Ssj when it would have been quite logical to at least try to after having completely mastered ssj. You can come up with your own head canon as to why it was never used again, but I think its more likely that AT just wasn't thinking about it anymore.

And I don't take the BoG quote as conclusive. Until the theory I presented in this thread is disproved by the new movie, I will consider it a possibility. Plus there is plenty of evidence in the manga that the base saiyans surpassed Freeza, like teen Gohan wanting to fight in the tournament in base with Both Android 18 and Piccolo competing, and thinking he could win with only one months training.

[Hitiro]

Like I said in the comment you quoted, AT probably though he had overdone it with a 50x ssj multiplier. He is quoted in the Daiz after the manga was finished that he thought x50 is excessive, and I believe that probably reflects how he felt after the Namek saga as well, judging from the implications in the following arcs that he had changed the ssj multiplier to be much lower. I think 4x for the ssj multiplier fits well post Namek. As for kaioken, I think AT never thought about it again. Evidenced by how he never gave Cell the technique when logically he would have had it and used it, or why Goku never used it in combination with Ssj when it would have been quite logical to at least try to after having completely mastered ssj. You can come up with your own head canon as to why it was never used again, but I think its more likely that AT just wasn't thinking about it anymore.

And I don't take the BoG quote as conclusive. Until the theory I presented in this thread is disproved by the new movie, I will consider it a possibility. Plus there is plenty of evidence in the manga that the base saiyans surpassed Freeza, like teen Gohan wanting to fight in the tournament in base with Both Android 18 and Piccolo competing, and thinking he could win with only one months training.

But you realise there is nearly a 20 year gap between when he comments this and when he actually drew the manga. right? He drew that in 1991 and it was in the Super Exciting Guide in 2009 that he said that he thought x50 was excessive. But Akira Toriyama said when he drew it he had it in his head that Goku was 10x the strength he had shown up till that point. What Goku showed at that point in strength though was Kaioken x10 and Kaioken x20. So it is either 100x(10x10) or 200x(20x10). At least that is how I see it and I think a few people also agree with me. The 50x base power seems fine to me if you consider it like that. He could have mistaken the 50x increase as including Goku's strength with the Kaioken technique. In which sense it is excessive if you think about it 500x(10x50) and 1,000x(20x50). And if it was only 10x base power. It would have been more effective he Goku just kept using Kaioken x20. Right? Why make a transformation that isn't superior to his technique at least?

As for Gohan not using the SSJ form. He cared more about keeping his identity then actually winning the thing. The only reason he agreed to enter was because Videl blackmailed him. And Vegeta also didn't care about winning either. He just wanted to face Goku. If he had to fight against #18 to get to Goku he would have probably just turned SSJ anyway despite his agreeing to not use the SSJ form. He could always fight him after the tournament if he lost too.

[Kaboom]

I don't think Toriyama's 10x comment necessarily has to mean anything more than, "Super Saiyan's established as a 50x power increase, but that's a really big number that's hard to process in one's head, so it always felt more like 10x to me as I worked."

He doesn't seem to be discrediting the figure from all the books he endorsed, or telling you that it should be something else, or that he regrets it working out that way, and he's especially not saying, "hear ye, my number-crunching children — This is the one true Super Saiyan multiplier, bestowed upon you by The Creator."

He's just telling us how things felt to him as he was creating the story.