Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by Darkprince410 » Thu Oct 30, 2014 5:33 am

19 could make SS Vegeta bleed with a punch, so it's pretty much impossible for him to be weaker than Freeza, at least.
I will say, solely in the regards to this, that it looked pretty clear to me that Vegeta dropped his guard to let #19 take a punch at him, and that this #19 was already much stronger than normal as he had absorbed a large portion of Goku's ki (enough that he dropped out of Super Saiya-jin). He wanted to get a more exact feel for how strong #19 was, so he just took the punch without putting up any kind of defense, and even then it was only enough to make his lip bleed. I think it's safe to say that if he had taken the hit from #19, without #19 having absorbed so much ki before, it wouldn't have even been able to do that to Vegeta, thus supporting more that they were quite weak.

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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by hleV » Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:49 am

RandomGuy96 wrote:
Pre-fusion Piccolo was weaker than base Goku and Vegeta as far as I'm concerned.
That's completely impossible, since Gero pre-energy absorptions tanked base Goku, while post-energy Gero was curb-stomped by Piccolo.
Things aren't consistent, hence the confusion. Goku and Tenshinhan both dodge Gero's eye lasers. Goku could've blocked it had he known that the androids are actually weak. He then jumps and hits Gero so he would stop destroying the city. The actual fight hasn't started yet.
RandomGuy96 wrote: Not to mention illogical, as Piccolo just made multi-fold gains in his last two rounds of training.
Why didn't Goku's power increase nearly as much as Piccolo's?

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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by Regarder » Thu Oct 30, 2014 10:57 am

There's plenty of room here for Piccolo to be stronger than Android 19 and 20 and yet still weaker than a healthy original SS.

The range is basically 3,000,000 to 150,000,000. Has to be higher than the first, but should be lower than the second.

Here's some random numbers that would fit (among many other combinations):
Piccolo: 40
Android 19 powered up: 30
Android 20: 35
Goku if he didn't have the heart virus: 9
Weak base Goku: 3
Weak Goku SS at the start of the battle: 60 (not multiplied as much: "his power as a Super Saiyan should be more tremendous than this.")
Goku losing power rapidly from the virus and energy draining: <30

hleV wrote: Why didn't Goku's power increase nearly as much as Piccolo's?
Why did Piccolo make gains faster than Goku at that point? Potential. People with higher potential make bigger jumps in their training. Piccolo raised his potential by fusing with Nail. At that point, we can imagine that not only his power rose, but also his training potential. Piccolo multiplied his training multiplier as well as his power. Seems like a natural fit without too many things getting in the way. Goku eventually advanced his training by going to a level beyond SSJ which was already waiting, so he then overtook Piccolo in all ways.

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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Thu Oct 30, 2014 12:47 pm

Super Saiyan Goku's strong enough to beat #19 to the point where the latter's energy would run dry if it continued. Goku wasn't as strong as he was supposed to be, but he was still quite powerful before using his KameHameHa. Only then was his energy stated to have dropped significantly.

Piccolo easily beats the crap out of a more powerful #20 during their battle, which Goku had some trouble doing to a weaker #19 despite trying to finish the battle as quickly as possible. With that, Piccolo could be stronger than Goku was against #19, or in the same league as him at the very least. I doubt he's weaker.
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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by hleV » Thu Oct 30, 2014 12:59 pm

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:Super Saiyan Goku's strong enough to beat #19 to the point where the latter's energy would run dry if it continued. Goku wasn't as strong as he was supposed to be, but he was still quite powerful before using his KameHameHa. Only then was his energy stated to have dropped significantly.
What does "still quite powerful" even mean? Sick SS Goku was stronger than healthy base Goku and initial #19, sure. What we know for a fact is that sick Goku was weaker than healthy Goku, but not by how much.
Piccolo easily beats the crap out of a more powerful #20 during their battle, which Goku had some trouble doing to a weaker #19 despite trying to finish the battle as quickly as possible.
Why doesn't the following work?
  • initial #19 < initial #20 < energized #20 < Piccolo < healthy base Goku < sick SS Goku < energized #19 < SS Vegeta
Why do so many people agree with this for the most part, except for the placing of healthy base Goku?

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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by RandomGuy96 » Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:19 pm

Why doesn't the following work?
Because Piccolo took down energized 20, who is stronger than normal 20, who is stronger than normal 19, in far less time and with far more ease than sick SS Goku beat up base 19. Also, Krillin NAND Tenshinhan both compare Piccolo to the Super Saiyans (Ten says both Piccolo and Virginia powered up extraordinarily, Krillin basically says that no one other than a Super Saiyan should be that strong).
Things aren't consistent, hence the confusion. Goku and Tenshinhan both dodge Gero's eye lasers. Goku could've blocked it had he known that the androids are actually weak. He then jumps and hits Gero so he would stop destroying the city. The actual fight hasn't started yet.
No, he couldn't have, because these androids are at least way stronger than base Saiyans. He punched Gero right in the face cleanly while Gero was making no attempt to defend himself. This isn't hurt him at all. Regardless of anything else, these androids being far stronger than the base Saiyans is ironclad and inarguable.
Why didn't Goku's power increase nearly as much as Piccolo's?
His zenkai is probably did a lot to draw out his dormant power, thus making future training gains slower. Piccolo, on the other hand, had yet to reach at particular limit until after the ROSAT (where he thought going back in would be a waste, and didn't get much stronger in the seven years between Cell and Buu). This, combined with the increase potential he got from fusing with Nail and the benefits of sparring with a Super Saiyan, allowed him to get many times stronger. Hence why Tenshinhan said his training gains were out of the ordinary, despite seeing his power rise many times over in seven days and, on another occasion, nearly nine times in less than a year. And Piccolo trained for 3-5 years this time.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:22 pm

hleV wrote:What does "still quite powerful" even mean? Sick SS Goku was stronger than healthy base Goku and initial #19, sure. What we know for a fact is that sick Goku was weaker than healthy Goku, but not by how much.
It means he wasn't noticeably weaker to anyone but Piccolo and Gohan, who actually knew his full-power. Everyone else thought his Super Saiyan power was incredible.
  • initial #19 < initial #20 < energized #20 < Piccolo < healthy base Goku < sick SS Goku < energized #19 < SS Vegeta
Why do so many people agree with this for the most part, except for the placing of healthy base Goku?
Goku punched #20 in the face and did nothing. This was well before he began exerting himself to the point where he showed signs of the heart virus. I see no reason why any Base Saiyan would be stronger than the Androids or Piccolo when they've shown nothing to indicate it. Also, I'm sure Piccolo training with Super Saiyan Goku would undoubtedly give him a much bigger boost in power than Goku would ever get in Base during those 3 yrs.
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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by RandomGuy96 » Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:35 pm

Also... sick base Goku could still budge energized 19, and survive for a while. He was much weaker, but 19 didn't just one-shot him. This same 19 was able to make full power SS Vegeta bleed. Energized 19 and SS Vegeta weren't very far apart, as 19 could actually damage him and hold out for a while unlike, say, Semi-Cell vs 16, or suppressed Cell vs Super Vegeta. Sick base Goku can't be that weak. At the very least, he should be above 100 million. Piccolo is clearly depicted as stronger than sick Goku.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by Rocketman » Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:27 pm

Y'know what everybody keeps forgetting? Androids don't have ki.

Their strength is not from their ki.
Their durability is not from their ki.
Their energy blasts are not from their ki.

They exist completely outside all the martial arts\scouters\POWUH ELVIS that the heros live in, their strength depends on the quality of the materials used in their construction and the charge of their batteries.

Android #19 is not stronger than Freeza. It's not even stronger than Kid Goku. It is an object. What is the power level of the Dragonball Radar?

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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by Kaboom » Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:43 pm

Well some of them DO have ki, or at least something artificially-grown that's similar to it, in the case of 17 and 18. But I think it goes without saying that when someone refers to an Android's "power level," it's just an equivalence thing.
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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:44 pm

So, the Androids have greater artificial power than Freeza. Okay. Same outcome in the end.
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~

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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by RandomGuy96 » Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:51 pm

Y'know what everybody keeps forgetting? Androids don't have ki.

Their strength is not from their ki.
Their durability is not from their ki.
Their energy blasts are not from their ki.
They have some artificial energy that serves the same purpose, so the difference doesn't matter. Their energy is close enough to ki that 19 and 20 can just absorb ki to power themselves.
They exist completely outside all the martial arts\scouters\POWUH ELVIS that the heros live in, their strength depends on the quality of the materials used in their construction and the charge of their batteries.
The materials don't appear to matter. They just use artificial energy, which is the exact same as ki other than that users of artificial energy get it from a difference source, can't train to get stronger, and can't be sensed.
Android #19 is not stronger than Freeza. It's not even stronger than Kid Goku. It is an object. What is the power level of the Dragonball Radar?
No, it is. It just doesn't use the exact same source of power. If you read it with a scouter, you wouldn't get a number. Doesn't change the fact that it's still strong enough to kill super-powered people.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by Rocketman » Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:53 pm

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:So, the Androids have greater artificial power than Freeza. Okay. Same outcome in the end.
Nope! Because mechanical power is not the same as ki power. Ki power beefs you up in all aspects evenly - mechanical power does not.

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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by RandomGuy96 » Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:55 pm

Rocketman wrote:
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:So, the Androids have greater artificial power than Freeza. Okay. Same outcome in the end.
Nope! Because mechanical power is not the same as ki power. Ki power beefs you up in all aspects evenly - mechanical power does not.
I'd like some evidence of that claim, considering mechanical power and ki power are shown to be more or less the same thing in this arc, to the point that 19 and 20 can add ki power to their own.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:57 pm

Whatever they have is better than Freeza's Chi power. There. Sound better? Also, since #19 and #20 can grow more powerful through absorbing Chi, I'd say their artificial power is more similar to Chi than not. The way they increase their powers are different, but the more they have, the more powerful they are.

Basically, what Random said.
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~

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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by hleV » Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:59 pm

Sick SS Goku was very, very weak. First attack - sends #19 flying - #19 stands up with some bruises. Base Vegeta's unexpected attack - - sends energized #19 flying - energized #19 stands up with a very visible foot mark on his face.
Not accepting #20 "tanking" Goku's punch as an argument. The punch was to stop #20's laser beam, not to defeat him. Plus Goku's power may very well have been affected by the virus by then.

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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by Rocketman » Thu Oct 30, 2014 3:27 pm

The way I see it, either:

1. the Androids are weird and don't conform to the standard powerlevels scaling.

2. Piccolo gained a megasuperhyperwombocombopowerup but Goku and Gohan did not, despite being his training partners and being...well, Goku and Gohan.

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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Thu Oct 30, 2014 3:44 pm

hleV wrote:Sick SS Goku was very, very weak.
After using the KameHameHa. Before that, was only able to put out close to his full-power. If he was very, very weak, why were the others (aside from Piccolo and Gohan) still amazed by his power? They sensed him 3 yrs ago, so his level shouldn't be drastically below what was shown back then. Goku only needs to be weaker than the full-power Piccolo and Gohan were aware of.
First attack - sends #19 flying - #19 stands up with some bruises. Base Vegeta's unexpected attack - - sends energized #19 flying - energized #19 stands up with a very visible foot mark on his face.
Because Goku was still stronger than #19, so it's understandable. Super Saiyan Goku has enough power to almost beat #19 dry when going all-out despite being weakened. What makes you think a healthy Base Goku would be able to inflict damage on that level?

Yeah, Vegeta is able to knock #19 away with a surprise attack. Something we've seen throughout the series countless times. Thing is, #19 gets back up, smiling and eager to take him on. Vegeta's not dumb enough to fight #19 without Super Saiyan.
Not accepting #20 "tanking" Goku's punch as an argument. The punch was to stop #20's laser beam, not to defeat him. Plus Goku's power may very well have been affected by the virus by then.
He was obviously mad when he punched him, so he was trying to inflict damage. That's all we have to go on besides Vegeta's surprise attack. Piccolo's really strong for someone who "isn't a Super Saiyan", not a Saiyan. The emphasis is specifically on Super Saiyan power. Anything less than Piccolo or a Super Saiyan is no match for the Androids at this point. Goku fought a weaker Android and nearly finished him--Piccolo fought a more powerful Android and destroyed him with less effort. No matter how you look at it, Piccolo ends up better than weakened Super Saiyan Goku, who's obviously more powerful than his Base form.
Last edited by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 on Thu Oct 30, 2014 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by Regarder » Thu Oct 30, 2014 3:45 pm

Rocketman wrote: 2. Piccolo gained a megasuperhyperwombocombopowerup but Goku and Gohan did not, despite being his training partners and being...well, Goku and Gohan.
Piccolo had just recently fused before that training. He was basically a new being already. The easy out is that fusion factors in the potential for strength as well as current strength.

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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by RandomGuy96 » Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:12 pm

Sick SS Goku was very, very weak. First attack - sends #19 flying - #19 stands up with some bruises. Base Vegeta's unexpected attack - - sends energized #19 flying - energized #19 stands up with a very visible foot mark on his face.
1. Incorrect. SS Sick Goku was implied to be stronger than Yardrat Goku, and at the very, very least we know he's stronger than one hundred million, since he wasn't one-shotted by someone that could damage SS Vegeta.

2. Off-guard hits don't mean anything. They have never meant anything. We clearly see energized 19 make Vegeta bleed with a straight punch to the face while he was fully aware of what was going on. Energized 19, at least, is very powerful. Energized 19 is just 19 + sick SS Goku's Kamehameha, and is not strong enough to one-shot sick SS Goku.
Not accepting #20 "tanking" Goku's punch as an argument. The punch was to stop #20's laser beam, not to defeat him. Plus Goku's power may very well have been affected by the virus by then.
1. It doesn't matter if you 'accept' it, that's what happened.

2. So Goku inexplicably decided to suppress himself when trying to stop these genocidal stronger-than-Super-Saiyan androids from nuking the place. That's perfectly logical.
The way I see it, either:

1. the Androids are weird and don't conform to the standard powerlevels scaling.

2. Piccolo gained a megasuperhyperwombocombopowerup but Goku and Gohan did not, despite being his training partners and being...well, Goku and Gohan.
There are many possible explanations for that. I just offered one perfectly logical one that is contradicted by nothing. We know for a fact that number two is true, since the androids can power up via absorbing ki, Krillin compared Piccolo to the Super Saiyans, and Tenshinhan said Piccolo's gains were out of the ordinary even though he just recently witnessed the guy get nearly nine times stronger in one year, and Piccolo has been training for 3-5 years.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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