Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by Rocketman » Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:17 pm

Regarder wrote:Piccolo had just recently fused before that training. He was basically a new being already. The easy out is that fusion factors in the potential for strength as well as current strength.
He didn't get nearly that much power from training after rejoining with Kami.

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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by RandomGuy96 » Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:20 pm

Rocketman wrote:
Regarder wrote:Piccolo had just recently fused before that training. He was basically a new being already. The easy out is that fusion factors in the potential for strength as well as current strength.
He didn't get nearly that much power from training after rejoining with Kami.
Because he went into the ROSAT, gained a shitload of power, and then hit his limit. Hence why he didn't go in for a second round, and didn't get much stronger between Cell and Buu.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by Regarder » Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:12 pm

Rocketman wrote: He didn't get nearly that much power from training after rejoining with Kami.
There's no numerical basis for a comparison by that point. All we know is that his training after Kami made him super strong but not as strong as Goku, Gohan, and Cell who were super super super super strong. We don't know what the gaps actually were.

With the Nail fusion he was at least "over one million" in order to fight Freeza, and then became anywhere between being as strong as a SS, or just comparable in some way that can be substantially less while still very comparable in lieu of any other intermediate power. The gaps involved could be comparable to the case of the second fusion, but we don't have the between a few million to 150 mill basis from before, because everyone has outstripped it to some degree that may or may not be enormous, going from strong SS to androids (Piccolo's initial Kami fusion power coming in here), to Cell's first form, to his second and 16, to "beyond SS", to a SS that is even beyond that, to a mastery of SS that even at 50% power is greater than that, and then higher than that is Gohan, and then Cell who was holding back...

In addition, at the risk of making stuff up to fit the hypothesis, maybe Kami's potential just sucked (still hanging around in the 200-400 zone, huh?) compared to Nail's and the vast power came from recreating the Nameless Namek. Guru (or was it Nail/both?) seemed to think that Freeza could be defeated by such a level of power without regard to the strength of Kami, which he/they were unaware of.

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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by Hitiro » Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:43 pm

Regarder wrote:There's no numerical basis for a comparison by that point. All we know is that his training after Kami made him super strong but not as strong as Goku, Gohan, and Cell who were super super super super strong. We don't know what the gaps actually were.

With the Nail fusion he was at least "over one million" in order to fight Freeza, and then became anywhere between being as strong as a SS, or just comparable in some way that can be substantially less while still very comparable in lieu of any other intermediate power. The gaps involved could be comparable to the case of the second fusion, but we don't have the between a few million to 150 mill basis from before, because everyone has outstripped it to some degree that may or may not be enormous, going from strong SS to androids (Piccolo's initial Kami fusion power coming in here), to Cell's first form, to his second and 16, to "beyond SS", to a SS that is even beyond that, to a mastery of SS that even at 50% power is greater than that, and then higher than that is Gohan, and then Cell who was holding back...

In addition, at the risk of making stuff up to fit the hypothesis, maybe Kami's potential just sucked (still hanging around in the 200-400 zone, huh?) compared to Nail's and the vast power came from recreating the Nameless Namek. Guru (or was it Nail/both?) seemed to think that Freeza could be defeated by such a level of power without regard to the strength of Kami, which he/they were unaware of.
Well, Piccolo is the only person seen standing during the Cell Jr. fight. And Cell seems to confirm this by saying Vegeta 'ya' Trunks. Which can mean that there are more than just the two listed by him.

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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by hleV » Fri Oct 31, 2014 4:16 am

Thing is, Piccolo's power increasing so much was so unnecessary for the plot (because he fuses with Kami afterwards anyway) and unexplained that I simply don't agree that it actually did.
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote: After using the KameHameHa. Before that, was only able to put out close to his full-power.
Says who?
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:If he was very, very weak, why were the others (aside from Piccolo and Gohan) still amazed by his power?
Because Goku was still much stronger than them.
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:They sensed him 3 yrs ago, so his level shouldn't be drastically below what was shown back then. Goku only needs to be weaker than the full-power Piccolo and Gohan were aware of.
They were amazed by base Gotenks' power although he clearly couldn't defeat Fat Boo.
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:Because Goku was still stronger than #19, so it's understandable. Super Saiyan Goku has enough power to almost beat #19 dry when going all-out despite being weakened. What makes you think a healthy Base Goku would be able to inflict damage on that level?
What makes you think a healthy base Goku wouldn't?
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:Yeah, Vegeta is able to knock #19 away with a surprise attack. Something we've seen throughout the series countless times. Thing is, #19 gets back up, smiling and eager to take him on. Vegeta's not dumb enough to fight #19 without Super Saiyan.
How is Vegeta able to leave such a visible mark on energized #19's durable body? SS Goku couldn't do that to initial #19. Isn't according to you he's strong enough to do that?
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:He was obviously mad when he punched him, so he was trying to inflict damage.
He was obviously mad when he punched him, so he was trying to stop #20 from inflicting damage.
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:Piccolo's really strong for someone who "isn't a Super Saiyan", not a Saiyan. The emphasis is specifically on Super Saiyan power.
Piccolo was being compared to a SS because the androids were supposed to be SS-level (although weren't) and Piccolo was stronger than them.
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:Goku fought a weaker Android and nearly finished him--Piccolo fought a more powerful Android and destroyed him with less effort.
Weakened Goku fought weaker-than-initial-Gero #19 and nearly finished him -- Piccolo fought a less-powerful-than-energized-#19 Gero and destroyed him with less effort. Base Vegeta's surprise attack left visible damage on energized #19's face.
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:No matter how you look at it, Piccolo ends up better than weakened Super Saiyan Goku, who's obviously more powerful than his Base form.
Weakened SS Goku > initial #19
Energized #19 > even more weakened SS Goku
Piccolo > energized #20

How can you compare Piccolo to anyone else but energized #20 here?

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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by GogesusSSG » Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:04 am

Why do people assume #20 is stronger than #19 anyway? because without this Piccolo can be closer to the base saiyans than the super saiyans, hence giving much more reasonable training gains.

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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by dbgtFO » Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:58 am

GogesusSSG wrote:Why do people assume #20 is stronger than #19 anyway? because without this Piccolo can be closer to the base saiyans than the super saiyans, hence giving much more reasonable training gains.
Because Dr. Gero said SS Goku couldn't beat #19 and much less him, implying that Dr. Gero was the stronger one, which is also the usual formula; the strongest guy sends his minion to fight first.

In any case I just have Piccolo and #19 & #20 stronger than the base Saiyans, but weaker than the Super Saiyans. Piccolo and Kami both agree, that he is nowhere near as strong as Trunks, who probably couldn't have raised his power much, but is still said to be not that different from Goku and Vegeta.

I could even go so far as thinking Piccolo as a Super Namekian also gets a 50x boost in his power like the Super Saiyans like so:

Goku: 5
Piccolo: 8
Super Saiyan Goku: 250.
Super Piccolo: 400.

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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Fri Oct 31, 2014 1:51 pm

hleV wrote:Says who?
#20 says Goku's energy took a huge drop after using his KameHameHa. Piccolo tells Tien Goku put out close to full-power.
Because Goku was still much stronger than them.
The way Tien describes Super Saiyan makes it seem like it was far greater than he ever imagined. So, Goku while fighting #19 is showing more power than he did when he was standing around blocking Trunks's sword.
They were amazed by base Gotenks' power although he clearly couldn't defeat Fat Boo.
Yes.
What makes you think a healthy base Goku wouldn't?
Because a more powerful Super Saiyan Goku couldn't. Unless you're implying healthy Goku has a higher power than his weakened Super Saiyan form.
How is Vegeta able to leave such a visible mark on energized #19's durable body? SS Goku couldn't do that to initial #19. Isn't according to you he's strong enough to do that?
Because he was off-guard. Also, this is why it doesn't really matter: Goku was close to beating #19 dry, despite not leaving any visible marks--while Vegeta's kick did nothing but left a mark and stunned #19 for a bit. Obviously Goku did more lasting damage to #19 (before he absorbed his KameHameHa) than Vegeta did, even though it's not visually shown.

If Vegeta didn't bother transforming, you think he would've really beat #19 right there?
He was obviously mad when he punched him, so he was trying to stop #20 from inflicting damage.
And...as shown, #20 can take his punch without any issues.
Piccolo was being compared to a SS because the androids were supposed to be SS-level (although weren't) and Piccolo was stronger than them.
Or because he's doing something only a Super Saiyan should be capable of. It can certainly be looked at that way.
Weakened Goku fought weaker-than-initial-Gero #19 and nearly finished him -- Piccolo fought a less-powerful-than-energized-#19 Gero and destroyed him with less effort. Base Vegeta's surprise attack left visible damage on energized #19's face.
I don't see why you're mentioning energized #19. Neither Goku or Piccolo fought him. Goku going all-out came close to beating the weakest version of #19, while Piccolo easily beat the tar out of the most powerful version of #20. So Piccolo did better against a more powerful #20 than Goku did against #19 with no energy absorbed. The conclusion: Piccolo decides to fight #19 instead of Super Saiyan Goku and destroys him with even less effort simply because he's weaker.
Weakened SS Goku > initial #19
Energized #19 > even more weakened SS Goku
Piccolo > energized #20

How can you compare Piccolo to anyone else but energized #20 here?
Piccolo can indirectly be compared to Goku based on the battles they've fought and how the Androids compare to one another. If Piccolo can easily beat a more powerful #20, we can assume he'd have a much easier time doing the same to #19. Goku going all-out still took a while to finish the battle, so Piccolo is capable of putting out a level of power to defeat an opponent Weakened Super Saiyan Goku had trouble doing with even less effort.
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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by hleV » Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:05 pm

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:#20 says Goku's energy took a huge drop after using his KameHameHa. Piccolo tells Tenshinhan Goku put out close to full-power.
Provide the actual quote, because the way I remember it, Piccolo isn't talking about healthy Goku's full power but the full power of Goku at that time. Because, you know, earlier he said that Goku was much weaker than he should be.
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:The way Tenshinhan describes Super Saiyan makes it seem like it was far greater than he ever imagined. So, Goku while fighting #19 is showing more power than he did when he was standing around blocking Trunks's sword.
Standing ki and fighting ki comes into play. Goku wasn't really fighting Trunks, so while his power was amazing, it was his standing ki. Goku actually fought #19 and that fighting ki instantly cought up with Tenshinhan and others.
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:
They were amazed by base Gotenks' power although he clearly couldn't defeat Fat Boo.
Yes.
Meaning they can be amazed by weakened SS Goku and Piccolo's power and that power may still not be comparable to SS level.
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:
What makes you think a healthy base Goku wouldn't?
Because a more powerful Super Saiyan Goku couldn't. Unless you're implying healthy Goku has a higher power than his weakened Super Saiyan form.
Now when I compare weakened SS Goku vs initial #19 and Piccolo vs energized #20... yes, I suppose SS Goku was really that weak.
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:
How is Vegeta able to leave such a visible mark on energized #19's durable body? SS Goku couldn't do that to initial #19. Isn't according to you he's strong enough to do that?
Because he was off-guard. Also, this is why it doesn't really matter: Goku was close to beating #19 dry, despite not leaving any visible marks--while Vegeta's kick did nothing but left a mark and stunned #19 for a bit. Obviously Goku did more lasting damage to #19 (before he absorbed his KameHameHa) than Vegeta did, even though it's not visually shown.

If Vegeta didn't bother transforming, you think he would've really beat #19 right there?
I'm not saying base Vegeta is stronger than energized #19, I'm saying that him being able to leave such a visible mark on #19's face is indeed an implication that the androids aren't as strong as you portray them.
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:
He was obviously mad when he punched him, so he was trying to stop #20 from inflicting damage.
And...as shown, #20 can take his punch without any issues.
#20 can take a punch from a weakened base Goku who's trying to stop Gero's eye laser, yes.
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:
Piccolo was being compared to a SS because the androids were supposed to be SS-level (although weren't) and Piccolo was stronger than them.
Or because he's doing something only a Super Saiyan should be capable of. It can certainly be looked at that way.
According to them, Piccolo was doing something only a SS should be capable of. Because, again, they thought the androids were SS level.

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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by Darkprince410 » Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:27 pm

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:
hleV wrote:Says who?
#20 says Goku's energy took a huge drop after using his KameHameHa. Piccolo tells Tenshinhan Goku put out close to full-power.
Piccolo: “Have you noticed too, Gohan?...”
Gohan: “Y-yes…”
Piccolo: “Son Goku is rushing the match for some reason…He’s already putting out close to his full power…But even so, what’s with that miserable condition of his?...”
Tenshinhan: “Th-that miserable condition…!? What are you talking about? Goku’s overwhelmingly pushing him back…!”
Piccolo: “It’s not that. As a Super Saiyan, Goku’s power should be more stupendous than this…”
The way Piccolo words his statements suggests that it's his full power while in his weakened state. He can tell that Goku's going all out with what power he's able to muster up, but he knows that Goku should be far more powerful than he actually was (hence why he could tell that something was amiss).

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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by Doctor. » Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:04 pm

I never considered the two artificial humans stronger than Freeza. Kuririn says something to Goku like "Do you think you can beat someone stronger than Freeza?" when he wakes up, which kinda implies 19 and 20 weren't. Following that logic, Piccolo shouldn't be at SSJ level yet, no.

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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by Nikkolas » Sat Nov 01, 2014 1:03 pm

I have a question. Don't we see Piccolo training with SSJ Goku in preparation for the Androids? If so, what chapter is it in?

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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by Kaboom » Sat Nov 01, 2014 2:30 pm

Nikkolas wrote:I have a question. Don't we see Piccolo training with SSJ Goku in preparation for the Androids? If so, what chapter is it in?
It's on the title page for Chapter 336 (DBZ 142), a little collage showing all the heroes training. We never see them train within a chapter itself.
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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by Nikkolas » Sat Nov 01, 2014 2:35 pm

Fair enough, thanks for the info!

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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by Dbzk1999 » Sat Nov 01, 2014 3:28 pm

http://s1175.photobucket.com/albums/r62 ... pg~320x480
Here's the VIZ translation on piccolo's confidence, he states he doesn't doubt his OWN power
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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by Rocketman » Sat Nov 01, 2014 8:12 pm

Regarder wrote:There's no numerical basis for a comparison by that point. All we know is that his training after Kami made him super strong but not as strong as Goku, Gohan, and Cell who were super super super super strong. We don't know what the gaps actually were.
Is Super Vegeta fifty times stronger than SS Vegeta vs the Androids?

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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by Regarder » Sat Nov 01, 2014 8:59 pm

If Piccolo gets significantly stronger than Goku's base form after a certain point into the training, then going SS is still beneficial for Goku. If Piccolo gets to the point of being 10 times stronger than Base Goku, then going SS means that the gap narrows to a 5 times difference, so punches have to be pulled less. Gohan was also involved too.
Rocketman wrote:
Regarder wrote:There's no numerical basis for a comparison by that point. All we know is that his training after Kami made him super strong but not as strong as Goku, Gohan, and Cell who were super super super super strong. We don't know what the gaps actually were.
Is Super Vegeta fifty times stronger than SS Vegeta vs the Androids?
I don't see why he has to be. This is only the case if you believe that Nail-Piccolo's training multiplier needs to be near 50 times, when it's making a mountain out of a molehill to say that someone who can beat enemies a badly weakened SS could've beaten if he didn't get weaker than that must be pretty much exactly as strong, just because some characters - one of whom mistakes that much weaker power output of SS for the real deal - say that he's doing things the think only a SS can do.

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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by khalildh » Thu Nov 06, 2014 3:05 am

None of the other Z-fighters even know about Vegeta being a Super Saiyan at this time, I find it rather absurd to think that Piccolo had magically caught upto Goku and or 100% Frieza. The Androids don't have power levels, but if 19 and 20 got into a fight, I think they would have lost. If I am not mistaken no data was used from Namek and because of that 19 and 20 are likely much weaker than Frieza. 17 and 18 are stronger because they were being made for a much longer time period.

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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by Dbzk1999 » Thu Nov 06, 2014 6:55 am

khalildh wrote:None of the other Z-fighters even know about Vegeta being a Super Saiyan at this time, I find it rather absurd to think that Piccolo had magically caught upto Goku and or 100% Freeza. The Androids don't have power levels, but if 19 and 20 got into a fight, I think they would have lost. If I am not mistaken no data was used from Namek and because of that 19 and 20 are likely much weaker than Freeza. 17 and 18 are stronger because they were being made for a much longer time period.
Again, if the androids were weaker than freeza, then they would've immediately noticed it when 20 got stomped by piccolo. If piccolo was weaker than freeza, he wouldn't be confident that HE could beat the androids
Heck, if the androids were weaker than freeza, something would've been said along the lines of "even freeza can beat these guys if I can"
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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by Galan007 » Thu Nov 06, 2014 8:21 pm

Nikkolas wrote:This is a topic that is near and dear to my heart in the stupidest, most roundabout way. I like GT Pan and she needs Android 20/Dr. Gero to be at least vaguely quantifiable in terms of strength. And to do that, here we are.

Now, I've been looking up discussions on what people think of the first couple Androids and how strong they might have been. The facts are these:
SSJ Goku and Vegeta > 19 and 20
Piccolo > 20 even after absorbing some of Piccolo's energy

And then we reach the impasse. The roadblock to establishing their strength is people believing Piccolo absolutely COULD NOT have surpassed Freeza in the time since Namek. Why? I dunno, I guess because they feel he couldn't multiply his PL by at least 50 times just from training alone.

I know it's not a perfect example but something else I was dwelling on just the other day is Goku's time with Kami/Popo vs. the Humans' time with Kami/Popo.
3 Years for Goku and maybe he gained like, what? 100 or 200?
Krillin, Tenshinhan and even Yamcha, IN A SINGLE YEAR, went from weaker than King Piccolo to stronger than Raditz, or at least right there with Raditz.

When I brought this up to someone elsewhere, he just shrugged and said "it makes sense because they had people on their level to train with so they got stronger faster."

And that is why it's kinda sorta related to this topic. Couldn't Piccolo with Goku as his training partner possibly have surpassed Freeza by the time of the Androids?

P.S.

Forgive me, I'm sure this topic has been done to death.
There were 4 total years between the Namek and Android sagas(remember, there was a whole year between the destruction of of Namek and Cyborg Frieza [re]appearing.)

Anyway, we know Piccolo's PL during the Namek saga was on par with that of 1st form Frieza--so just over 1,000,000. We also know that final form Frieza(100%) had a PL of 120,000,000. So for Piccolo to have become more powerful than Frieza by the time Androids 19 & 20 appeared, means he would've had to increase his PL by a factor of roughly 120x in that 4 years. Without some sort of highly specialized training or fusion(neither of which he received), I just can't imagine him improving that much. I guess it's possible--I just find it unlikely, is all. /shrug

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