Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

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Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by Nikkolas » Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:47 pm

This is a topic that is near and dear to my heart in the stupidest, most roundabout way. I like GT Pan and she needs Android 20/Dr. Gero to be at least vaguely quantifiable in terms of strength. And to do that, here we are.

Now, I've been looking up discussions on what people think of the first couple Androids and how strong they might have been. The facts are these:
SSJ Goku and Vegeta > 19 and 20
Piccolo > 20 even after absorbing some of Piccolo's energy

And then we reach the impasse. The roadblock to establishing their strength is people believing Piccolo absolutely COULD NOT have surpassed Freeza in the time since Namek. Why? I dunno, I guess because they feel he couldn't multiply his PL by at least 50 times just from training alone.

I know it's not a perfect example but something else I was dwelling on just the other day is Goku's time with Kami/Popo vs. the Humans' time with Kami/Popo.
3 Years for Goku and maybe he gained like, what? 100 or 200?
Krillin, Tien and even Yamcha, IN A SINGLE YEAR, went from weaker than King Piccolo to stronger than Raditz, or at least right there with Raditz.

When I brought this up to someone elsewhere, he just shrugged and said "it makes sense because they had people on their level to train with so they got stronger faster."

And that is why it's kinda sorta related to this topic. Couldn't Piccolo with Goku as his training partner possibly have surpassed Freeza by the time of the Androids?

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Forgive me, I'm sure this topic has been done to death.

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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by FoolsGil » Wed Oct 29, 2014 12:02 am

Who out there doesn't believe Pickle Monster wasn't SSJ level by the 3 year mark? He's clearly kicking Android 20's ass! And no one denies that Android 20 is stronger than Freeza, so... Piccolo > Gero > Freeza.

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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by TheDevilsCorpse » Wed Oct 29, 2014 12:06 am

I'm not denying that Piccolo is in that Freeza and Super Saiyan level tier (though I don't think he's surpassed Freeza just yet), but I don't think either 19 or 20 are stronger than Freeza (even with their absorptions). Soooo, yeah.
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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by Rocketman » Wed Oct 29, 2014 12:54 am

Nikkolas wrote:I know it's not a perfect example but something else I was dwelling on just the other day is Goku's time with Kami/Popo vs. the Humans' time with Kami/Popo.
3 Years for Goku and maybe he gained like, what? 100 or 200?
Krillin, Tenshinhan and even Yamcha, IN A SINGLE YEAR, went from weaker than King Piccolo to stronger than Raditz, or at least right there with Raditz.
The humans were personally trained by Kami himself. Goku was not.
And that is why it's kinda sorta related to this topic. Couldn't Piccolo with Goku as his training partner possibly have surpassed Freeza by the time of the Androids?
Why didn't Son "Hidden Potential" Gohan get a supermassive black hole power boost from training with Goku and Piccolo? He gained nearly 1,000x from training with Piccolo alone...

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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by Nikkolas » Wed Oct 29, 2014 1:22 am

....did Gohan do anything in the Android or Cell Saga pre-ROSaT to say how strong he got? I don't recall him so much as throwing a punch, let alone being in a fight.

Also Kami is weaker than Piccolo so how would training personally with him account for the humans getting so strong so quick?

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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by Pantalones » Wed Oct 29, 2014 2:03 am

Why didn't Son "Hidden Potential" Gohan get a supermassive power boost from training with Goku and Piccolo? He gained nearly 1,000x from training with Piccolo alone...
Who ever said he didn't get a huge boost from those 3 years of training? He only had one "year-day" of training after that point, and most of that involved going Super Saiyan and then mastering it rather than just trying to rapidly pump up his raw power... and yet he comes out of that single year-day of training FAR stronger than any other Saiyan at the time, even surpassing the same Goku who utterly shocked "stomping 2nd-form Cell level" Vegeta with only half of his power.

Gohan very well could've been the strongest base Saiyan all throughout the Android/Cell saga--it's just that he wasn't able to go Super Saiyan yet at that point, so he still wouldn't have been much help against any opponent during that part of the story.

(Also, he was a 4-year-old who had absolutely no idea how to control his power when he started training with Piccolo, so... not quite the same situation.)

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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by Saiga » Wed Oct 29, 2014 4:02 am

Goku outright said it was in the RoSaT that he started to see Gohan's potential, which is fitting since Future Gohan never got that training and was worth crap.

Anyway, the strengths of Piccolo, 19 and 20 are all very vague. There are lot of different interpretations of that and I think there are valid points on the side of people who think Piccolo surpassed Freeza and people who think he didn't. I do disagree that it'd make sense for Piccolo to have gotten that strong, though, since Gohan and Goku didn't show any kind of large improvement from that. It would also really devalue Piccolo's later fusion with God.

19 and 20 aren't really that impressive, either. Not only do they get tossed around by the Super Saiyans, but base Vegeta kicked 19 off of Goku and left a large dent in his head. Then the energy that Gero stole from Piccolo turned out to be very small, despite Gero thinking it'd be significant.

God personally training the humans was the reason given for them being more effective. Goku was trained by Popo, who just isn't as good a teacher. They also had sparring partners in each other, which Trunks mentions is much more effective, so much that Vegeta wouldn't turn down that opportunity. But Piccolo and Goku weren't really close enough to be effective sparring partners for each other.
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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by Darkprince410 » Wed Oct 29, 2014 7:34 am

I personally don't see #19 or Gero to be all that powerful, maybe in the range of 10 million or so (before absorbing ki). They never performed any feats that I considered remotely suggestive of them being powerful by any means, as #19's only real feat was beating Goku around, AFTER absorbing a rather large Kamehameha and while Goku was growing steadily weaker due to his heart virus. Vegeta quite clearly let himself get punched when he first fought #19, and even after #19 started absorbing his ki (steadily making him stronger while Vegeta weaker), he didn't seem to have much difficulty in ripping himself free. Goku, even in his base form, and already showing some signs of the virus, still managed to land a punch on Gero that left him sprawling a bit, making me think that the difference in their strength wasn't that huge.

There's also the fact that Gero, having not only neglected to keep track of Goku during the time of his life when he got his largest increases in strength, even believed that due to Goku's age, he wouldn't have received as large of boosts in strength as he had in the past. I'd be surprised if he had anticipated Goku being out of the hundred thousand range by the time they met during the beginning of the Cell Saga. As such, there's no reason to assume that #19 or Gero were anywhere near Super Saiya-jin tier levels of strength.

As for Piccolo, I don't feel that he was either. Maybe 20-30 million or so at best, which would still give him a clear and decisive advantage over Gero given where I estimate his relative strength. Kuririn's one line in relation to Piccolo's strength I don't see as an indicator of him being Super Saiya-jin tier by any means, just that, for not being a Super Saiya-jin he was incredibly strong, and 30 million by that point in Z would still be incredibly strong.

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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by Dbzk1999 » Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:33 am

Darkprince410 wrote:I personally don't see #19 or Gero to be all that powerful, maybe in the range of 10 million or so (before absorbing ki). They never performed any feats that I considered remotely suggestive of them being powerful by any means, as #19's only real feat was beating Goku around, AFTER absorbing a rather large Kamehameha and while Goku was growing steadily weaker due to his heart virus. Vegeta quite clearly let himself get punched when he first fought #19, and even after #19 started absorbing his ki (steadily making him stronger while Vegeta weaker), he didn't seem to have much difficulty in ripping himself free. Goku, even in his base form, and already showing some signs of the virus, still managed to land a punch on Gero that left him sprawling a bit, making me think that the difference in their strength wasn't that huge.

There's also the fact that Gero, having not only neglected to keep track of Goku during the time of his life when he got his largest increases in strength, even believed that due to Goku's age, he wouldn't have received as large of boosts in strength as he had in the past. I'd be surprised if he had anticipated Goku being out of the hundred thousand range by the time they met during the beginning of the Cell Saga. As such, there's no reason to assume that #19 or Gero were anywhere near Super Saiya-jin tier levels of strength.

As for Piccolo, I don't feel that he was either. Maybe 20-30 million or so at best, which would still give him a clear and decisive advantage over Gero given where I estimate his relative strength. Kuririn's one line in relation to Piccolo's strength I don't see as an indicator of him being Super Saiya-jin tier by any means, just that, for not being a Super Saiya-jin he was incredibly strong, and 30 million by that point in Z would still be incredibly strong.
What about how piccolo was confident in fighting the androids? Why be confident in his own abilities if he knows they'd stomp ssj trunks (mecha arc) and yardrat goku?
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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by Nikkolas » Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:40 am

Vegeta and Goku both went SSJ didn't they? If 19 and 20 were only like, 10 million, couldn't Goku and Vegeta beat them in base? Base Goku was 3,000,000 against Freeza. I'm not sure if he would have gotten a Zenkai from his fight with Freeza or not...he received hella damage but then SSJ kinda seemed to wipe it away. In any event he could only have gotten stronger since then.

Also I have no idea if this is in the manga too but didn't Goku inquire as to whether or not Vegeta or Piccolo were the ones to beat Freeza? I'm not suggesting they could have won but Goku is pretty good about sensing ki isn't he? Shouldn't he be aware if both of them were like, a fraction of Freeza? And that would have been pre-Android training to boot.

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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by Darkprince410 » Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:53 am

Dbzk1999 wrote:
Darkprince410 wrote:I personally don't see #19 or Gero to be all that powerful, maybe in the range of 10 million or so (before absorbing ki). They never performed any feats that I considered remotely suggestive of them being powerful by any means, as #19's only real feat was beating Goku around, AFTER absorbing a rather large Kamehameha and while Goku was growing steadily weaker due to his heart virus. Vegeta quite clearly let himself get punched when he first fought #19, and even after #19 started absorbing his ki (steadily making him stronger while Vegeta weaker), he didn't seem to have much difficulty in ripping himself free. Goku, even in his base form, and already showing some signs of the virus, still managed to land a punch on Gero that left him sprawling a bit, making me think that the difference in their strength wasn't that huge.

There's also the fact that Gero, having not only neglected to keep track of Goku during the time of his life when he got his largest increases in strength, even believed that due to Goku's age, he wouldn't have received as large of boosts in strength as he had in the past. I'd be surprised if he had anticipated Goku being out of the hundred thousand range by the time they met during the beginning of the Cell Saga. As such, there's no reason to assume that #19 or Gero were anywhere near Super Saiya-jin tier levels of strength.

As for Piccolo, I don't feel that he was either. Maybe 20-30 million or so at best, which would still give him a clear and decisive advantage over Gero given where I estimate his relative strength. Kuririn's one line in relation to Piccolo's strength I don't see as an indicator of him being Super Saiya-jin tier by any means, just that, for not being a Super Saiya-jin he was incredibly strong, and 30 million by that point in Z would still be incredibly strong.
What about how piccolo was confident in fighting the androids? Why be confident in his own abilities if he knows they'd stomp ssj trunks (mecha arc) and yardrat goku?
Piccolo stated that one of the possible reasons they had been doing so well in comparison to what Trunks had warned them about was that perhaps #19 and Gero weren't as strong as Trunks' jinzou-ningen.
Chapter: 347 (DBZ 153), P3.2-3
Piccolo: “It seems that in the original history, we were supposed to be wiped out by you two androids…But it looks like the future has changed somehow…Was it that you weren’t as strong as we thought?...Or have we grown too strong?...
Likewise, he had a chance to see #19 in action (and how much weaker he was in comparison to a Super Saiya-jin), and was likely able to assess how strong Gero would be as a result.
Vegeta and Goku both went SSJ didn't they? If 19 and 20 were only like, 10 million, couldn't Goku and Vegeta beat them in base? Base Goku was 3,000,000 against Freeza. I'm not sure if he would have gotten a Zenkai from his fight with Freeza or not...he received hella damage but then SSJ kinda seemed to wipe it away. In any event he could only have gotten stronger since then.
Remember, Goku, even before he started fighting #19, was beginning to show signs of weakness due to his heart virus, and when it came to fighting #19, Piccolo outright stated that while he was maxing himself out, Goku was nowhere near as powerful as he should have been. Then, when it came to Vegeta fighting #19, #19 was already far stronger than before, having absorbed both Goku's Kamehameha and a good portion of Goku's ki, and even then could only make Vegeta's lip bleed when he allowed himself to get punched. Even after having his own ki drained (subsequently powering up #19 further), Vegeta had very little difficulty in breaking free of his grasp and ripping his hands off.

We don't know how much more powerful Goku got from his training with Piccolo and Gohan, since the only image we have of their training together shows that Goku was a Super Saiya-jin during the training. So it's possible that he wasn't getting as much out of the training as Gohan or Piccolo would, seeing as how he was the strongest one there.
Also I have no idea if this is in the manga too but didn't Goku inquire as to whether or not Vegeta or Piccolo were the ones to beat Freeza? I'm not suggesting they could have won but Goku is pretty good about sensing ki isn't he? Shouldn't he be aware if both of them were like, a fraction of Freeza? And that would have been pre-Android training to boot.
Well, by Gohan's own admission, Freeza, when he came to Earth, was emitting nowhere near as much strength as he was capable of, and since there's no indication that he actually powered up at any point from what suppressed level he first arrived on Earth at, it's possible that he was low enough to where it wouldn't have been a stretch to imagine either of them beating Freeza (since they would have been the two most likely candidates in his mind that could have).

Likewise, Goku couldn't tell who it was, and he's not shown any indication of being able to sense an individual's strength if they're not actually exhibiting it. When it comes to ki sensing, he's accurate as far as what's there, but he can't sense the full extent of an individual's ki if it was suppressed (otherwise he wouldn't have been caught off guard by Freeza's strength on multiple occasions). He sensed a large ki that took out Freeza, then assumed that it might have been Piccolo or Vegeta given that they were the strongest individuals he knew. If he had the ability to sense a person's hidden ki like you're suggesting, he definitely wouldn't have assumed it was Vegeta, given that Vegeta at the time had yet to become a Super Saiya-jin, and there was no way his base form was Super Saiya-jin tier strength (Battle of Gods establishes that even by that point, base forms weren't Ssj tier).

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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by Gaffer Tape » Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:57 am

Rocketman wrote:The humans were personally trained by Kami himself. Goku was not.
There is absolutely nothing in the series to suggest that the earthlings' training was in any way different from Goku's, so it honestly drives me a little crazy when people keep bringing that up as if it has any basis in fact. And there's really no way you could justify it logically. Yes, God does say he left most of Goku's training to Mr. Popo, but if there was any significant difference between the two, what reason does God have to hold back the fruits of his training? That's ridiculous. Here he is trying to atone for the trouble he is responsible for, and he's just going to half-ass Goku's training? "Oh, well, I'm sure things will work out somehow. And, hmm, I don't think Goku is going to turn out strong enough to beat Piccolo, so I'll have to get involved directly. I mean, if I started training him myself, he'd become, like, 4 times as strong as Piccolo, but I just can't be bothered. It's not as if the fate of the world is at stake or anything." I know the guy makes some questionable decisions, but I'm not about to assume he's that flippin' stupid.

Also, even if we assume it's correct that God took more of an active role in the earthlings' training (which, again, is never even so much as suggested anywhere, but still, we'll roll with it), where does anyone get the impression that God-direct training is substantially better than Popo-direct training? Again, nothing in the series even hints at a supposed difference.

Finally, we see very little of either sets of training in the manga. Pretty much the same level of nothing for both of them, but in both cases, both God and Popo are present.

I dunno. I've always thought this fan-theory cropped up as a desperate rationalization as to how the earthlings benefited from the training more than Goku did. And it seems the only reason the "I left most of your training to Mr. Popo" line exists is so God will underestimate how strong Goku has become.
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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by hleV » Wed Oct 29, 2014 12:01 pm

Piccolo wasn't SS level and neither were the initial androids. Kuririn thought the androids are supposed to be above SS level (as Trunks told), saw Piccolo owning them and thus compared Piccolo to SS without actually sensing his ki.

Pre-fusion Piccolo was weaker than base Goku and Vegeta as far as I'm concerned.

EDIT: Found a thread with a nice sub-discussion about pre-fusion Piccolo.
Last edited by hleV on Wed Oct 29, 2014 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by Dbzk1999 » Wed Oct 29, 2014 12:37 pm

Darkprince410 wrote:
Dbzk1999 wrote:
Darkprince410 wrote:I personally don't see #19 or Gero to be all that powerful, maybe in the range of 10 million or so (before absorbing ki). They never performed any feats that I considered remotely suggestive of them being powerful by any means, as #19's only real feat was beating Goku around, AFTER absorbing a rather large Kamehameha and while Goku was growing steadily weaker due to his heart virus. Vegeta quite clearly let himself get punched when he first fought #19, and even after #19 started absorbing his ki (steadily making him stronger while Vegeta weaker), he didn't seem to have much difficulty in ripping himself free. Goku, even in his base form, and already showing some signs of the virus, still managed to land a punch on Gero that left him sprawling a bit, making me think that the difference in their strength wasn't that huge.

There's also the fact that Gero, having not only neglected to keep track of Goku during the time of his life when he got his largest increases in strength, even believed that due to Goku's age, he wouldn't have received as large of boosts in strength as he had in the past. I'd be surprised if he had anticipated Goku being out of the hundred thousand range by the time they met during the beginning of the Cell Saga. As such, there's no reason to assume that #19 or Gero were anywhere near Super Saiya-jin tier levels of strength.

As for Piccolo, I don't feel that he was either. Maybe 20-30 million or so at best, which would still give him a clear and decisive advantage over Gero given where I estimate his relative strength. Kuririn's one line in relation to Piccolo's strength I don't see as an indicator of him being Super Saiya-jin tier by any means, just that, for not being a Super Saiya-jin he was incredibly strong, and 30 million by that point in Z would still be incredibly strong.
What about how piccolo was confident in fighting the androids? Why be confident in his own abilities if he knows they'd stomp ssj trunks (mecha arc) and yardrat goku?
Piccolo stated that one of the possible reasons they had been doing so well in comparison to what Trunks had warned them about was that perhaps #19 and Gero weren't as strong as Trunks' jinzou-
Chapter: 347 (DBZ 153), P3.2-3
Piccolo: “It seems that in the original history, we were supposed to be wiped out by you two androids…But it looks like the future has changed somehow…Was it that you weren’t as strong as we thought?...Or have we grown too strong?...
Piccolo states that either weren't as strong as they thought, or they got too strong. The fact that he's saying that speaks VOLUMES. Don't you think if the androids were weaker than freeza (or trunks) piccolo would be able to automatically tell they weren't the androids? Vegeta also states that androids wasn't as terrible as the rumors made out. Trunks told them that the Artificial Humans are outrageously strong beyond imagination etc. Apparently they aren't at that level based on Vegeta's comment, but that doesn't mean they absolutely aren't stronger than Trunks.
Except he stated he was confident in his own abilities before they even fought the androids
Chapter 337 (DBZ 143), P1.3-4, P2.1
Piccolo: “How about it, Son Goku…Frankly, do you think we can win against this enemy…”
Goku: “There’s no way I could know that without even seeing them. I’ll answer once I give it a try.”
Piccolo: “You’re pretty carefree…It’s not like I lack confidence…However, I can’t clear this uneasy premonition from my mind…”
The viz (IIRC)and anime translation also has piccolo flat out state he's sure he can beat the androids
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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by Darkprince410 » Wed Oct 29, 2014 2:26 pm

Dbzk1999 wrote: Piccolo states that either weren't as strong as they thought, or they got too strong. The fact that he's saying that speaks VOLUMES. Don't you think if the androids were weaker than freeza (or trunks) piccolo would be able to automatically tell they weren't the androids? Vegeta also states that androids wasn't as terrible as the rumors made out. Trunks told them that the Artificial Humans are outrageously strong beyond imagination etc. Apparently they aren't at that level based on Vegeta's comment, but that doesn't mean they absolutely aren't stronger than Trunks.
Except he stated he was confident in his own abilities before they even fought the androids
Chapter 337 (DBZ 143), P1.3-4, P2.1
Piccolo: “How about it, Son Goku…Frankly, do you think we can win against this enemy…”
Goku: “There’s no way I could know that without even seeing them. I’ll answer once I give it a try.”
Piccolo: “You’re pretty carefree…It’s not like I lack confidence…However, I can’t clear this uneasy premonition from my mind…”
The viz (IIRC)and anime translation also has piccolo flat out state he's sure he can beat the androids
However, by the very fact that he brings up that it's possible that their success stems from the jinzou-ningen not being as strong as they were lead to believe in turn speaks volumes. Either one could be the case, and the fact that Piccolo believes that's one of the possible reasons would mean that he wouldn't be able to tell that they weren't the proper ones.

As for that statement you mentioned. I don't see that as a statement solely about his own strength. Given that he's asking if Goku thinks they (the Z Senshi) would be able to win, I see it as more of him being confident in their overall victory, not his own ability to fight them.

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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by Dbzk1999 » Wed Oct 29, 2014 6:07 pm

Darkprince410 wrote:
Dbzk1999 wrote: Piccolo states that either weren't as strong as they thought, or they got too strong. The fact that he's saying that speaks VOLUMES. Don't you think if the androids were weaker than freeza (or trunks) piccolo would be able to automatically tell they weren't the androids? Vegeta also states that androids wasn't as terrible as the rumors made out. Trunks told them that the Artificial Humans are outrageously strong beyond imagination etc. Apparently they aren't at that level based on Vegeta's comment, but that doesn't mean they absolutely aren't stronger than Trunks.
Except he stated he was confident in his own abilities before they even fought the androids
Chapter 337 (DBZ 143), P1.3-4, P2.1
Piccolo: “How about it, Son Goku…Frankly, do you think we can win against this enemy…”
Goku: “There’s no way I could know that without even seeing them. I’ll answer once I give it a try.”
Piccolo: “You’re pretty carefree…It’s not like I lack confidence…However, I can’t clear this uneasy premonition from my mind…”
The viz (IIRC)and anime translation also has piccolo flat out state he's sure he can beat the androids
However, by the very fact that he brings up that it's possible that their success stems from the jinzou-ningen not being as strong as they were lead to believe in turn speaks volumes. Either one could be the case, and the fact that Piccolo believes that's one of the possible reasons would mean that he wouldn't be able to tell that they weren't the proper ones.

As for that statement you mentioned. I don't see that as a statement solely about his own strength. Given that he's asking if Goku thinks they (the Z Senshi) would be able to win, I see it as more of him being confident in their overall victory, not his own ability to fight them.
Don't you think though that if they were weaker than freeza (or trunks) they'd automatically realize this?
That's why I said the viz and japanese anime's translations reveal that piccolo is talking about his own power
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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by Hitiro » Wed Oct 29, 2014 6:26 pm

Dbzk1999 wrote:Don't you think though that if they were weaker than freeza (or trunks) they'd automatically realize this?
That's why I said the viz and japanese anime's translations reveal that piccolo is talking about his own power
Considering they are Androids and you can't sense their power it wouldn't be something automatically recognizable. Piccolo recognised that a Super Saiyan could overwhelm them. But that doesn't really put it into perspective in regards to himself. Because it doesn't take a lot to overwhelm an opponent. If you see someone 50x stronger than an opponent you are going to face kick said opponent about you aren't going to be sure whether they are 50x stronger than that opponent or 10x stronger.

And you can't exactly estimate an opponents strength in relation to your own if they aren't getting any chance whatsoever to respond to the other person who is giving them a pounding.

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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by Dbzk1999 » Wed Oct 29, 2014 8:33 pm

Hitiro wrote:
Dbzk1999 wrote:Don't you think though that if they were weaker than freeza (or trunks) they'd automatically realize this?
That's why I said the viz and japanese anime's translations reveal that piccolo is talking about his own power
Considering they are Androids and you can't sense their power it wouldn't be something automatically recognizable. Piccolo recognised that a Super Saiyan could overwhelm them. But that doesn't really put it into perspective in regards to himself. Because it doesn't take a lot to overwhelm an opponent. If you see someone 50x stronger than an opponent you are going to face kick said opponent about you aren't going to be sure whether they are 50x stronger than that opponent or 10x stronger.

And you can't exactly estimate an opponents strength in relation to your own if they aren't getting any chance whatsoever to respond to the other person who is giving them a pounding.
If piccolo (someone supposedly weaker than freeza) stomped one of the androids, then they'd automatically tell that they aren't the androids, and piccolo would just flat out say "you aren't the androids" instead he states that either they're the androids, but they couldn't stomp trunks as bad as they thought, or they could stomp trunks as bad as they thought, but they just got that much stronger
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Hitiro
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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by Hitiro » Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:34 pm

Dbzk1999 wrote:If piccolo (someone supposedly weaker than freeza) stomped one of the androids, then they'd automatically tell that they aren't the androids, and piccolo would just flat out say "you aren't the androids" instead he states that either they're the androids, but they couldn't stomp trunks as bad as they thought, or they could stomp trunks as bad as they thought, but they just got that much stronger
Piccolo realised something was up when he was able to stomp the Androids though. The two were, no doubt, Androids created by the RR army. What Piccolo actually said was that perhaps the future was changed somehow as either they weren't as strong as they thought or the gang had grown too strong. He clearly discerned that there was something different about the two Androids as they didn't fit the picture Trunks painted.

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Re: Piccolo Becoming SSJ-Level Pre-Kami

Post by RandomGuy96 » Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:16 am

This is a topic that is near and dear to my heart in the stupidest, most roundabout way. I like GT Pan and she needs Android 20/Dr. Gero to be at least vaguely quantifiable in terms of strength. And to do that, here we are.
That's not necessary. Trunks said that Pan might possibly be stronger than him while they were fighting Rildo, which says a lot more about how strong she potentially is than her domination of Gero ever could.
Pre-fusion Piccolo was weaker than base Goku and Vegeta as far as I'm concerned.
That's completely impossible, since Gero pre-energy absorptions tanked base Goku, while post-energy Gero was curb-stomped by Piccolo. Not to mention illogical, as Piccolo just made multi-fold gains in his last two rounds of training.
but I don't think either 19 or 20 are stronger than Freeza (even with their absorptions)
19 could make SS Vegeta bleed with a punch, so it's pretty much impossible for him to be weaker than Freeza, at least.

There's also the obvious: if sick Goku was weaker than Yardrat Goku, and Piccolo saw him kicking the shit out of 19, he'd immediately know these weren't the real androids, as Trunks said that those androids would slaughter Goku as he was back then. If sick Goku was stronger than Yardrat Goku, then 19 was able to successfully survive against that enormous power, which would make him pretty strong himself.

Honestly, these androids are so variable you can pretty much peg them at any level and you wouldn't technically be wrong, as long as said level is decently above the base saiyans and decently below the Super Saiyans. The feats and statements involved with them are at times very contradictory. I like to place them in the middle of the low and high end (around 70% Freeza and Cold), just to keep things clean.

Things showing them to be not much stronger than the base saiyans:
-Gero says Yamcha will be a significant source of energy.
-Base Goku and Tenshinhan are able to dodge Gero's eye beams.
-While he tanks base Goku's punch, his head is at least moved. He also wasn't able to react fast enough to stop it.
-Gero considers suppressed Piccolo (confirmed to be weaker than base Vegeta) + Tenshinhan + Gohan + Krillin (all of whom are also weaker than base Vegeta, though it's debatable how much weaker) to be a significant source of energy and potential game changers.

Things showing them to be far stronger than the previous batch of Super Saiyans:
-The above mentioned thing about Yardrat Goku.
-Piccolo even considering the possibility that they could be the real androids.
-Vegeta doing the same. He simply says they're not quite as bad as the rumors made them out to be, not that there was no fucking way these guys could have beaten Trunks.
-Ten is absolutely awed by sick Goku's power, despite previously sensing Yardrat Goku. Yet this stronger version of Goku couldn't just one-shot 19.

Other stuff:
-Kami lightly implies Piccolo is still weaker than Freeza prior to the fusion. It's very vague, though.
-Post-absorption 19 can make SS Vegeta bleed, and isn't one-shot material to him.
Vegeta and Goku both went SSJ didn't they? If 19 and 20 were only like, 10 million, couldn't Goku and Vegeta beat them in base? Base Goku was 3,000,000 against Freeza. I'm not sure if he would have gotten a Zenkai from his fight with Freeza or not...he received hella damage but then SSJ kinda seemed to wipe it away. In any event he could only have gotten stronger since then.

Also I have no idea if this is in the manga too but didn't Goku inquire as to whether or not Vegeta or Piccolo were the ones to beat Freeza? I'm not suggesting they could have won but Goku is pretty good about sensing ki isn't he? Shouldn't he be aware if both of them were like, a fraction of Freeza? And that would have been pre-Android training to boot.
I find it unlikely that they got that high that fast. Base Goku around that time should be in the 4-6 million range. Yes, that quote was in the manga. But that's just Goku trying to rationalize it, because he doesn't see any other reason why he just sensed a huge ki show up and the other two huge kis (Freeza and Cold) disappear. Piccolo and Vegeta were both shitting themselves at the thought of facing a highly, highly suppressed Freeza, and the latter should be weaker than base Goku still anyway. So it doesn't really mean anything.
Why didn't Son "Hidden Potential" Gohan get a supermassive black hole power boost from training with Goku and Piccolo? He gained nearly 1,000x from training with Piccolo alone...
He had his potential unlocked by Guru, which brought him close to a million WITHOUT rage. I'm guessing that Guru's boost enabled him to access power he would regularly access via training, which would normally appear to make him jump significantly in a small amount of time. So, after that, his training gains slowed to a relatively normal rate on par with his father. Piccolo, on the other hand, evidently didn't reach the end of his "insane boosts phase" until after his time in the ROSAT. So he'd still be free to abuse the same training gains that made him x8 stronger in a year in the Saiyan arc, and many times stronger in a WEEK after training on Kaio's.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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