What does the Z sword weigh?

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Bullza
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What does the Z sword weigh?

Post by Bullza » Fri Nov 21, 2014 7:41 pm

This never made much sense if you take into consideration that Goku said that with 40 tons of weight he wouldn't even be able to move. That's 10 tons per limb.

When Goku was trying out the Z sword he commented that it was heavy but he was able to swing it around and even pass it back to Gohan with one outstretched arm. So the sword must have weighed less 10 tons, it couldn't be considerably more than that.

This was the same sword that Kibito couldn't even budge with two arms which would mean he wouldn't even be close to being 10x as strong as Goku was at the very start of the series even though he could supposedly give Gohan a difficult fight.

It's not really that impressive a sword, Spider-man could lift that.

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Re: What does the Z sword weigh?

Post by Regarder » Fri Nov 21, 2014 8:00 pm

Bullza wrote: This was the same sword that Kibito couldn't even budge with two arms which would mean he wouldn't even be close to being 10x as strong as Goku was at the very start of the series even though he could supposedly give Gohan a difficult fight.
As numerically established, Goku at the start of the series is able to begin Roshi's weight training at 20 kilos of extra weight. He lifts other things in the series, but you have to supply the numbers yourself, so they can't be considered part of what Toriyama has numerically established in terms of strength.

If you bring real world number estimates in, then yes, you are right that it doesn't make much sense.

Bullza wrote: It's not really that impressive a sword, Spider-man could lift that.
Spider-man doesn't exist in the DB universe, so it would be a little difficult. :wink:

People can complain that DB characters should be able to lift eleventy billion tons because of muh real world science calcs so he can beat soupaman (yay!) or whoever all day, but the fact is that Toriyama made the numbers what they are, and not randomly too.

There's a relatively consistent progression going from:
-Wearing a 20 kilo turtle shell
-A 40 kilo one
-Wearing 100 kilos with an adult body
-Carrying 1,588 extra kilos when wearing weighted gear in 10x gravity
-Carrying 6,138 extra kilos around when wearing an unweighted gi in 100x gravity (if he were to wear the weighted gi again it would be 16,138 extra kilos)
-Vegeta withstanding 18,538 extra kilos under 300x gravity, assuming he weighs 62 kilos like Goku (Toriyama has Briefs specifically note that this would make you weigh 18 tonnes if you measure at 60 kilos in Earth gravity)
-Goku doing some training with 2 tonness on each limb is flying and punching and kicking with 8,000 extra kilos on him
-40 tonnes is too much, but somewhere between 8 and 40 is his limit, which fits being more than 18 (caveat: Kai's new planet may also be 10x gravity, so it can reasonably be even more in terms of weight)
-As a Super Saiyan he can go back to punching and kicking as a light work out with the 10 tonnes on each limb


Those figures are all consistent with each other (EDIT: the one error is the time chamber plot hole). You can say that the specific gravity of sandstone is 2.1 or whatever, and then calc a rock Goku lifted to be heavier by volume, but that's not something Toriyama used to give us a numerical measure on his strength. It's totally inconsistent... with real world physics, but it's totally consistent with what Toriyama wrote and established for the "physics" of his universe.

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Re: What does the Z sword weigh?

Post by Bullza » Fri Nov 21, 2014 9:03 pm

There is a little bit of inconsistently with the stated weight figures towards the end of the original Dragon Ball. Early in the series Krillin trained in a 40kg shell then only grew much stronger by the end of the series yet picked up a 18kg boot and said it wasn't just heavy and couldn't believe that Goku could even move in them even though he had himself moved around with an heavier weight years before.

On a related note another stated number was Tao throwing a stone pillar 2300km and it's not like that was his maximum. If he's got the physical strength to do that then what is a vastly stronger character like Goku doing wearing a measly 200lbs for training and why does Tien sound so impressed by it?

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Re: What does the Z sword weigh?

Post by rereboy » Fri Nov 21, 2014 10:00 pm

Regarder wrote:
People can complain that DB characters should be able to lift eleventy billion tons because of muh real world science calcs so he can beat soupaman (yay!) or whoever all day, but the fact is that Toriyama made the numbers what they are, and not randomly too.

There's a relatively consistent progression going from:
-Wearing a 20 kilo turtle shell
-A 40 kilo one
-Wearing 100 kilos with an adult body
-Carrying 1,588 extra kilos when wearing weighted gear in 10x gravity
-Carrying 6,138 extra kilos around when wearing an unweighted gi in 100x gravity (if he were to wear the weighted gi again it would be 16,138 extra kilos)
-Vegeta withstanding 18,538 extra kilos under 300x gravity, assuming he weighs 62 kilos like Goku (Toriyama has Briefs specifically note that this would make you weigh 18 tonnes if you measure at 60 kilos in Earth gravity)
-Goku doing some training with 2 tonness on each limb is flying and punching and kicking with 8,000 extra kilos on him
-40 tonnes is too much, but somewhere between 8 and 40 is his limit, which fits being more than 18 (caveat: Kai's new planet may also be 10x gravity, so it can reasonably be even more in terms of weight)
-As a Super Saiyan he can go back to punching and kicking as a light work out with the 10 tonnes on each limb


Those figures are all consistent with each other (EDIT: the one error is the time chamber plot hole). You can say that the specific gravity of sandstone is 2.1 or whatever, and then calc a rock Goku lifted to be heavier by volume, but that's not something Toriyama used to give us a numerical measure on his strength. It's totally inconsistent... with real world physics, but it's totally consistent with what Toriyama wrote and established for the "physics" of his universe.
The only consistency that exist is that the numbers the author gives get bigger.

Besides that, Goku still lifted a 1 ton car on the first chapter of Dragon Ball and threw it (it was a car modeled after a real car that weighs around 1 ton), pushed around boulders during his training with Roshi that, given their size, should surpass 100 tons in weight, and still, in the Buu saga, he can't lift 40 tons while flying without SSJ.

That means that Goku would only have become 40 or 50 times stronger in his base in the Buu saga than in the start of the series. That's not consistent at all with the power progression.

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Re: What does the Z sword weigh?

Post by Hitiro » Fri Nov 21, 2014 10:11 pm

If you could work out the height the sword fell from when Gohan tried handing it over to Kibito and check it against the impression of the ground you could make a logical assumption of how much it weighed.
Bullza wrote:On a related note another stated number was Tao throwing a stone pillar 2300km and it's not like that was his maximum. If he's got the physical strength to do that then what is a vastly stronger character like Goku doing wearing a measly 200lbs for training and why does Tenshinhan sound so impressed by it?
I'm not sure. I would think the dispersal in weight is the reason for Tenshinhan to be impressed. Sure, Tao showed an impressive feat by launching a stone pillar. But Goku's body has to independently deal with each of the 40 lbs weights on his limbs while his limbs had to also compensate for the weights on the other limbs at the same time. Like a punch would put tremendous strain on his arm which his legs would try to alleviate to a certain degree while they are providing support for the relaxed arm and also trying to cope under the own weight they are under. Tao just had to concentrate and exert his strength in a fixed location. Also coupling with the fact that Goku has to exert constantly to keep the weights from weighing him down and achieve speeds exceeding human eye movement(And probably exceeding the speed of the pillar too.) over the span of a few fights. And then to still not have broken a sweat as well. I think it all adds up to be an impressive feat even if Tao's feat is superior at first. It probably all adds up.

Though I don't think Akira Toriyama thought of it like this. XD

And to the whole Goku can't lift above 40 tons while flying and without SSJ. Doesn't the Daizenshuu already cover that it would be more difficult to weight lift while flying? You're power source for lifting comes in the legs and without them being grounded you lose all that power you would use to lift. Only relying purely on the arm strength. Each limb would be purely independent. Unlike if it was on the ground where both legs would support the arms and would support punches. Also. From the World Guide we see that heaven is tremendously large. Possibly to accommodate the population of the universe if that were to ever come about. Given its size would it not have gravity exceeding Earth's? And it's not like spirits need to worry about heavy gravity when they have no mass. The only characters who would need to worry about weight are the characters who saved their worlds and are granted bodies. And considering all these characters are martial arts masters they can probably deal with this higher gravity.

So I see no reason why Heaven can't be 10x Earth's gravity.

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Re: What does the Z sword weigh?

Post by Bullza » Sat Nov 22, 2014 2:37 am

Well even if Kaios planet did have 10x gravity 40 tons would still be 40 tons for the planet they were on.

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Re: What does the Z sword weigh?

Post by rereboy » Sat Nov 22, 2014 9:25 am

Toriyama wouldn't be misleading like that. He's straightforward. If he didn't state that there's higher gravity there, there shouldn't be higher gravity there.

Not to mention that there's no in-universe reason for Heaven to have higher gravity. Kaio's planet makes sense since he is a martial arts master and only the people who beat snake way can get there.

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Re: What does the Z sword weigh?

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Nov 22, 2014 10:59 am

Regarder wrote:People can complain that DB characters should be able to lift eleventy billion tons because of muh real world science calcs so he can beat soupaman (yay!) or whoever all day, but the fact is that Toriyama made the numbers what they are, and not randomly too.
Agreed.
rereboy wrote:That's not consistent at all with the power progression.
This makes me think the powerlevels don't correlate with physical strenght progression or rather are just used for measure stick between characters.

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Re: What does the Z sword weigh?

Post by rereboy » Sat Nov 22, 2014 11:06 am

Hugo Boss wrote: This makes me think the powerlevels don't correlate with physical strenght progression or rather are just used for measure stick between characters.
Its not that simple. We see characters tanking Ki blasts that have enough force/energy to destroy the planet many times over. The series just focus more on KI displays and A > B comparisons than measurable strength feats.

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Re: What does the Z sword weigh?

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Nov 22, 2014 11:42 am

Many times over if you consider powerlevel progression. Increasing your number by 10 times doesn't necesseraly means you can lift 10 times more.

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Re: What does the Z sword weigh?

Post by rereboy » Sat Nov 22, 2014 11:59 am

Hugo Boss wrote:Many times over if you consider powerlevel progression. Increasing your number by 10 times doesn't necesseraly means you can lift 10 times more.
It doesn't have to be perfectly linear at all, but to think that Goku only became 40 or 50 times stronger in the Buu saga compared to the beginning of the series in terms of physical strength is laughable and can easily be proven to be incorrect with even other physical feats.

For example, Tao Pai Pai threw a heavy stone pillar over a distance of 2300 Kms. That's a physical feat that requires a lot more physical power that would be required to just lift 40 tons.

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Re: What does the Z sword weigh?

Post by Hitiro » Sat Nov 22, 2014 12:20 pm

Bullza wrote:Well even if Kaios planet did have 10x gravity 40 tons would still be 40 tons for the planet they were on.
40 tons is called 40 tons even on a planet with 10x Earth's gravity. Because tonnage is to do with mass. And as mass does not increase when it is put on a new planet then the tonnage doesn't increase. What you can say is that the 40 tons is now as heavy as what 400 tons is. But it is till 40 tons. No matter what gravity well it is under. There are measurements of weight that aren't to do with mass and those do change under the weight of the planet. But tons isn't one of them.

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Re: What does the Z sword weigh?

Post by Bullza » Sat Nov 22, 2014 2:30 pm

It doesn't have to be perfectly linear at all, but to think that Goku only became 40 or 50 times stronger in the Buu saga compared to the beginning of the series in terms of physical strength is laughable and can easily be proven to be incorrect with even other physical feats.
Not too mention that by just the next arc Goku's strength had already multiplied by several times as he was able to push a boulder the size of a house while it was dug into the ground. He's not just pushing the boulder but the earth around it.

A boulder that size would probably weigh more than 40 tons itself and even Krillin could move that.

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Re: What does the Z sword weigh?

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Nov 22, 2014 3:29 pm

rereboy wrote:It doesn't have to be perfectly linear at all, but to think that Goku only became 40 or 50 times stronger in the Buu saga compared to the beginning of the series in terms of physical strength is laughable and can easily be proven to be incorrect with even other physical feats.

For example, Tao Pai Pai threw a heavy stone pillar over a distance of 2300 Kms. That's a physical feat that requires a lot more physical power that would be required to just lift 40 tons.
I'm suggesting Toriyama didn't care about consistence. I honestly don't imagine he was serious about that. Maybe at some point he was, but even so.

I think it is a matter of picking what serves for our convenience. I find that character statement to be less consistent than actual feats (sometimes I repair this idea depending on the circunstances). In the case of Goku barely lifting 40 tons, I don't think I could disregard it completely.

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Re: What does the Z sword weigh?

Post by Bussani » Sat Nov 22, 2014 3:52 pm

It's completely like Regarder said: if you go only by the numbers Toriyama has chosen (which as rereboy pointed out, are only really consistent in that they get bigger), then it makes sense. If you try to put any more thought into it than that, then things get messy.
Regarder wrote:(caveat: Kai's new planet may also be 10x gravity, so it can reasonably be even more in terms of weight)
The place they're training is actually the planet called Heaven. We don't know what sort of gravity it has, but I'd guess it's the same as at Enma's place unless something ever contradicts that. Whilst we know that most people don't get to keep their bodies, a Heaven with gravity intolerable to most life forms seems weird to me.
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Re: What does the Z sword weigh?

Post by Hitiro » Sat Nov 22, 2014 8:21 pm

Bussani wrote:The place they're training is actually the planet called Heaven. We don't know what sort of gravity it has, but I'd guess it's the same as at Enma's place unless something ever contradicts that. Whilst we know that most people don't get to keep their bodies, a Heaven with gravity intolerable to most life forms seems weird to me.
The only people who get to keep the bodies that we can confirm are those who have saved their own worlds though. We also know that this planet called "Heaven" is practically filled with martial artists that have existed across time(Probably martial artists that have saved their own worlds so they kept their bodies). So there are really only 2 possibilities I could think of given the information we know.

1. The planet is populated with only martial artists that have kept their bodies due to saving their planets.

2. The planet is populated with martial artists but also spirits. But as spirits don't have a mass they won't be affected by the planets gravity.

Given the extreme size of the planet Heaven I would find it vary hard to believe that the gravity is not higher than Earth's. But whatever floats peoples boats I guess.

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Re: What does the Z sword weigh?

Post by xmysticgohanx » Sun Nov 23, 2014 4:44 pm

The DBZ feats with numbers attached to them have always been known to be way way way way less impressive then their number less feats.

Snakeway vs Piccolo's moon buster. Although, short range movement speed vs long range travel speed is an actual thing and you can assume that blasts are short range speed that don't slow down because of the many times the fighters try to fly away and they succeed for a couple of seconds before having to turn around. But whatever.

Kid Goku being able to flip cars, push the giant rocks which should be around 100 tons judging by their size, and Tao throwing a pillar so far at such high speeds (calced to be a ~1 million ton feat btw) vs lol 40 tons.

The fighters being able to survive large planet/small star destroying blasts but not being able to handle "high" gravity even though 500g = only wall destroying force :lol:
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Re: What does the Z sword weigh?

Post by dbgtFO » Sun Nov 23, 2014 5:16 pm

xmysticgohanx wrote:Kid Goku being able to flip cars, push the giant rocks which should be around 100 tons judging by their size, and Tao throwing a pillar so far at such high speeds (calced to be a ~1 million ton feat btw) vs lol 40 tons.
How does one go about calculating Tao's feat? Do you have a link to a person demonstrating how?

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Re: What does the Z sword weigh?

Post by rereboy » Sun Nov 23, 2014 7:29 pm

dbgtFO wrote:]How does one go about calculating Tao's feat? Do you have a link to a person demonstrating how?
Calculating the strength needed is complicated, but the speed is not very hard. We know that the pillar was thrown over a distance of 2300 kms, if my memory serves. And we also know that it was said that Tao should be back in about 30 minutes, so 15 minutes to either side. So, there's 900 seconds in 15 minutes and 2300000 meters in 2300 kms, so, at average, the pillar flew at a speed of 2556 meters per second, which is a tad faster than mach 7 (2 382.03 m / s). When it was thrown it probably was flying even faster than that and then got slower as it was flying, making that average.

I don't have the math skills to determine the strength needed to do this, but its obviously a lot more than the strength to just lift 40 tons.

I did find a calculation on another forum about this:
Originally Posted by Genyosai
I did this before, but you could call this a revision.

We know Tao's pillar had an initial velocity of 4747m/s from the distance it covered, and we can say the maximum acceleration length (and time period) is given with the length of his arm, which for your average man is 0.8m.

With this, we can use the formula for minimum constant acceleration:
a = v2 / (2 d)

4747 squared = 22534009
2 x 0.8 = 1.6
22534009 / 1.6 = 14083755.6m/s2 acceleration.

Now that we have the acceleration, we need to correctly determine the mass of the pillar to determine the force.

According to Dragonball wiki, Tao is 5'8'' (1.7272m) tall, and using a ruler for comparison, we can see that the pillar is 1.32352941 times larger or 2.28600 meters tall. We can also see that it has a 0.381m diameter. The volume of the column is 0.26062 cubic meters. Being a palace column it is likely to be marble, which has a specific gravity of 2.5. This places its mass at 651.55 kilos.

With the mass and the acceleration we now know that the force had to exceed 9176270961.18 newtons. This is the force gravity exerts on 935,719,227 kilos, so 1 million tonnes lift is also on the ball.

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Re: What does the Z sword weigh?

Post by The Monkey King » Sun Nov 23, 2014 7:40 pm

There's also the feat that Ozaru Goku with a PL of 100 punched through a 12 inch thick steel wall.
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