How powerful was Buff Buu and Skinny Evil Gray Buu?

[Hitiro]

I think the anime uses "dangerous" instead of "troublesome."

Probably where I got it from. The Viz big's say that he was "the most difficult one."

[OWmyDragonBallz]

I feel like I should point out that Pure Boo was never called the most dangerous. Just the most troublesome. I think it was just referring to his past record of destruction. The other Boo, for all of his power and intelligence, was still only alive for a few hours, so he "only" got to kill a few billion people (...which gives him the largest on-screen body count of any manga character, now that I think about it) Pure Buu, on the other hand, destroyed hundreds planets and stars, and probably killed trillions or quadrillions. He also killed the four Kaioshin, which I guess in Kibitoshin's eyes is worse than defeating and eating Gohan, Gotenks, Good Buu, Piccolo, 18, Krillin, Yamcha, and the rest, like Evil Boo did.

You're actually right, I've always thought that line also had dangerous in it. Like "He was the most dangerous and troublesome Boo." But this only further serves the point that Pure Boo isn't superior to Evil Boo.

I think the anime uses "dangerous" instead of "troublesome."

Anime uses "difficult" according to the DragonBox subs I read.

[Hitiro]

Anime uses "difficult" according to the DragonBox subs I read.

It is probably a dub line for the anime rather than a sub line. Maybe, lol. But the "dangerous" word was used somewhere otherwise people wouldn't be using it. It was probably the Funimation dub to be honest. In that dub they make it sound as if Pure Boo is the strongest Boo and they say all Kai's weakened him.

[Kamiccolo9]

Anime uses "difficult" according to the DragonBox subs I read.

It is probably a dub line for the anime rather than a sub line. Maybe, lol. But the "dangerous" word was used somewhere otherwise people wouldn't be using it. It was probably the Funimation dub to be honest. in that dub they make it sound as if Pure Boo is the strongest Boo and they say all Kai's weakened him.

The original anime says that Pure Buu is the strongest as well. 2 or 3 times, I believe. The narrator says it once, old Kaioshin says it, and I believe there's one other instance of them doing so.

[Kid Buu]

Anime uses "difficult" according to the DragonBox subs I read.

It is probably a dub line for the anime rather than a sub line. Maybe, lol. But the "dangerous" word was used somewhere otherwise people wouldn't be using it. It was probably the Funimation dub to be honest. in that dub they make it sound as if Pure Boo is the strongest Boo and they say all Kai's weakened him.

The original anime says that Pure Buu is the strongest as well. 2 or 3 times, I believe. The narrator says it once, old Kaioshin says it, and I believe there's one other instance of them doing so.

Goku says it right before he goes SSJ3.

[OWmyDragonBallz]

Anime uses "difficult" according to the DragonBox subs I read.

It is probably a dub line for the anime rather than a sub line. Maybe, lol. But the "dangerous" word was used somewhere otherwise people wouldn't be using it. It was probably the Funimation dub to be honest. In that dub they make it sound as if Pure Boo is the strongest Boo and they say all Kai's weakened him.

The Japanese version of the anime says "difficult". It means the same thing as troublesome in the context they are putting it in.

[Hugo Boss]

@Hitiro (part IV)

• My scenario is pretty much: main villains' final forms used to be their strongest forms as well as plot devices to get close to main heros at their best forms (two situations intricated with each other). Not exactly a solid point, Boo and Goku might be exceptions to that trend. Considering only what Goku states, your scenario can be resumed in an equation "Evil Boo > Pure Boo > Good Boo" and it is fine for me. The anime is what gives me a different impression from the manga ["facts"].
• I think 2nd point was clarified.
• Actually, I meant: nothing about Pure Boo's strenght in comparison with Buff Boo was confirmed. At least, regarding their true powers we don't have a confirmation. At first look, even Vegeta thought he could take Pure Boo. Still, I disagree with a few points you mentioned, if I didn't get you right. I don't think Goku was planning on weaken Evil Boo, that is more we get from Vegeta's perspective after they discovered Good Boo inside Evil Boo. Also, I don't think we have to relate SS Gotenks and Fat Boo at all. If Goku was playing the fortuneteller there in your scenario, it could be basically a "SS3 Gotenks and Evil Boo" relationship. Even the guidebooks go as far as to say Gotenks surpassed Vegeta only after his training in the RoSaT, where he got SS3 and his other techniques.
• Honestly, if my favorite character (Gohan) had defeated Boo, I think I'd feel more than satisfied with the story. But to be fair, the ones who should get their chance that time were Goten and Trunks. Goku and Gohan accomplished their roles very well in the past. Vegeta's sacrifice would have a meaning, as well as Gohan's lack of training would serve as a good example that you can't stop training. Goku would provide the way to the future teaching them fusion (and SS3 in a recoil).
• Ok, 4th point is also clarified. I'd just note that maybe Dai Kaioshin wasn't even a thing about the character design by this time.
• I guess I could point a lot of non-intelligent beings by your point of view. I see people experiment things even though they can't get nothing good from it. See some posts of this thread haha. At least, I think we are having a conversation and getting something from each other. But in a serious way, sometimes I do things just for the sake of "trying to find out".

[Herms]

The original anime says that Pure Buu is the strongest as well. 2 or 3 times, I believe. The narrator says it once, old Kaioshin says it, and I believe there's one other instance of them doing so.

Yeah, in the anime Goku describes Pure Boo as being better than the previous Boos in every category (power, speed, regenerative ability, etc), or words to that effect. Definitely can't blame the Funi dub for this.

In the manga of course, we've just got Elder Kaioshin saying Pure Boo must be the original, most "troublesome" Boo of all after he hears about Boo's history from East Kaioshin. The word there's 厄介/yakkai, meaning troublesome, burdensome, annoying, thorny, tiresome, formidable, etc. Basically, anything that's a royal pain in the ass, whether that's because it's really hard, or simply bothersome. So elsewhere in DB, you've got Jackie Chun saying that Goku's got a yakkai opponent when he learns Goku's up against Chapa, the guy who won a previous tournament without even getting hit once. And you've got Elder Kaioshin slightly earlier in the Boo arc describing the Fusion dance as a yakkai series of poses, which Boo won't politely wait around for Goku and Gohan to perform. And later on, Elder Kaioshin describes Goku and Vegeta as yakkai after they break the last pair of Potara and insist on fighting Boo without relying on fusion (overall, Elder Kaioshin seems to use the word an awful lot). So you can see that depending on context, yakkai can basically be a way of referring to strength, in that somebody being super strong makes them a "troublesome" opponent. Or in other contexts it doesn't have anything to do with strength at all, and just refers to things that are annoyingly cumbersome and inefficient, like the Fusion dance. With Pure Boo...well, based on East Kaioshin's story I think it refers to how Pure Boo's unrestrained nature makes him more troublesome than Boo's later forms, rather than anything to do with raw power. But I can see how someone might translate yakkai as "dangerous" in that context. It's still something of a stretch, but not completely out of left field.

[Hitiro]

My scenario is pretty much: main villains' final forms used to be their strongest forms as well as plot devices to get close to main heros at their best forms (two situations intricated with each other). Not exactly a solid point, Boo and Goku might be exceptions to that trend. Considering only what Goku states, your scenario can be resumed in an equation "Evil Boo > Pure Boo > Good Boo" and it is fine for me. The anime is what gives me a different impression from the manga ["facts"].

Well, it's fine if you want to consider Pure Boo as stronger than Evil Boo in the anime universe because, as several people have pointed out, the anime changes what we get told and adds things. But Pure Boo's only strength confirmation in the manga is Goku saying he can beat him at 100%. And Goku also says they would lose to Evil Boo. I think these points are also made in the anime too though. Which means that Toei must have magically powered up Goku because it makes no sense for him to say they would lose to Evil Boo and then call Pure Boo the strongest version of Boo but he can beat him, lol.

Actually, I meant: nothing about Pure Boo's strenght in comparison with Buff Boo was confirmed. At least, regarding their true powers we don't have a confirmation. At first look, even Vegeta thought he could take Pure Boo. Still, I disagree with a few points you mentioned, if I didn't get you right. I don't think Goku was planning on weaken Evil Boo, that is more we get from Vegeta's perspective after they discovered Good Boo inside Evil Boo. Also, I don't think we have to relate SS Gotenks and Fat Boo at all. If Goku was playing the fortuneteller there in your scenario, it could be basically a "SS3 Gotenks and Evil Boo" relationship. Even the guidebooks go as far as to say Gotenks surpassed Vegeta only after his training in the RoSaT, where he got SS3 and his other techniques.

Well there is technically a strength comparison with S. Kaioshin that we can confirm. Here are the statements of the Boo's:

Evil Boo - "We’re still simply no match for his strength!" < So here we know Goku and Vegeta can't beat Evil Boo.
S. Kaioshin Boo - "H-hey…Vegeta…His ki is increasing, ain’t it…!?" < Boo's power increased here so that means Goku and Vegeta still can't beat Boo. This also means that S. Kaioshin is stronger than Evil Boo.
Pure Boo - “If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather ki for about one minute.” < Here Goku says he can wipe Pure Boo out if he gathers his Ki for a minute. So we literally have the S. Kaioshin Boo above Evil Boo and Pure Boo below Evil Boo.

And actually, Vegeta never said he could take Pure Boo. His only statement was that Pure Boo was short. Later after Goku had been fighting Pure Boo for a while Vegeta admits he know that he couldn't beat Pure Boo. And as for Goku planning to weaken Evil Boo.

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”

Goku specifically says we're almost there in this statement. Implying they were in the middle of doing something. As it happens. Before this statement, straight after their fusion splits, Goku says "We don't know that!! There is no guarantee we can save everybody and turn Boo back to his first form!!" As you can see Goku had already decided to return the Boo back to his first form. Before they had even arrived at their friends and Boo in the cocoon's. It was also Goku who suggested that they cut the other Boo out of the cocoon before Evil Boo had arrived. Vegeta only made his perspective clear after Evil Boo arrived.

As for the Gotenks only surpassing Vegeta after training in the RoSaT nothing is clearly explained in this comment. Which form of Gotenks? Which form of Vegeta? And as far as I'm aware, unless they give Goku a miracle power-up, Vegeta and Goku are equals in strength in SSJ2. So why specifically talk about Vegeta here? Is it saying that SSJ Gotenks surpassed SSJ2 Vegeta? Because that would mean that SSJ3 Gotenks is at least 2x stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. If it is saying Gotenks only surpassed him with SSJ3 then that means Gotenks is much too weak to face Fat Boo as a SSJ. Yet Piccolo never disagrees that SSJ Gotenks couldn't beat Fat Boo. Why would Piccolo not tell them they aren't strong enough to beat Fat Boo as a SSJ fusion? As it stands the comments in the manga all suggest that SSJ should be superior to Fat Boo. SSJ Gotenks strength is only brought into question when Evil Boo crops up. I think you need to be very careful with taking the guidebooks seriously sometimes because Toei animation seem to try and avoid anybody being stronger, at the very least, than Goku in these guides. They specifically word it so that you can't assume Goku is or isn't stronger than other characters. Because vague comments like these can easily be interpreted in seveal ways.

Honestly, if my favorite character (Gohan) had defeated Boo, I think I'd feel more than satisfied with the story. But to be fair, the ones who should get their chance that time were Goten and Trunks. Goku and Gohan accomplished their roles very well in the past. Vegeta's sacrifice would have a meaning, as well as Gohan's lack of training would serve as a good example that you can't stop training. Goku would provide the way to the future teaching them fusion (and SS3 in a recoil).

But you, as anybody else, would be disappointed if the battle were to end in one blow. Right? I don't know any person who would want the series to end on a one-shot attack from Gohan or Gotenks.

Ok, 4th point is also clarified. I'd just note that maybe Dai Kaioshin wasn't even a thing about the character design by this time.

Possibilty that he hadn't of thought of the Dai Kaioshin's design. But we won't know if he did or didn't so this point is also hard to debate. Unless we get a comment from him saying he had already planned to introduce the Dai Kaioshin and had drawings of him. It is probably unlikely given his character but you never know.

I guess I could point a lot of non-intelligent beings by your point of view. I see people experiment things even though they can't get nothing good from it. See some posts of this thread haha. At least, I think we are having a conversation and getting something from each other. But in a serious way, sometimes I do things just for the sake of "trying to find out".

Well, I never said people don't experiment with things. But if they don't achieve anything then you won't continue to do that thing, will you? People will always experiment if they haven't experienced something. But do you see people chopping their arms off? Do you see people jumping off buildings because they are "experimenting"? When people experiment it is because they don't know what they will get from something. But if they don't get something good from it the first time they aren't going to do it again. Are they? If you chopped your arm off and you didn't get something like super powers then it is a natural assumption that you aren't going to chop off the other arm because you already know the experience is bad for you. It is the same with Boo. He absorbed S. Kaioshin, whether that was because he was forced to, or he was experimenting, if he got nothing from it or a detrimental effect from it that would end his experimenting. Just like the chopping your arm off scenario. I'm not discounting that you do stuff for the sake of finding out. But that is different from doing something once and then trying it again.

Sorry, it's pretty late while I'm writing this so if it doesn't make sense then I apologise. If you don't understand anything I said then tell me and I'll try to explain it better. Because I feel like the experimenting thing I just explained wasn't explained very well.

[Hugo Boss]

• First point cleared.
• I think the guidebook compared those characters in a way it could be as obvious as possible, because Vegeta lost to Good Boo while Gotenks was pretty much equal to Evil Boo. Guess there is no need to specify the form at all. It is also possible that Gotenks' power-up doesn't follow the same rules from Goku's. For example, if Evil Boo's bp is Good Boo's bp x2, SS3 Gotenks' bp could be SS Gotenks' bp x2 as well. Indeed, I still have a hard time picturing lesser forms of Gotenks as above SS2-tier characters, but given how SS Gotenks faired against Evil Boo, who knows? By the way, are Toei Animation or Shueisha responsible for those guidebooks?
• I would be so disappointed with an one-shot ending, that I would prefer Boo to be at least at Gohan's level, like Cell was back then, and like Freeza was far back then (at Goku's level alias).
• Lost in the order, also cleared.
• I like the input you gave to this point, absorbing someone in response to get better by doing so is a damn good idea, but we don't know exactly how things happened between South Kaioshin and Boo. I would like to see Toriyama giving some deep context about this event. By reading Saikyō Jump June 2014 Issue (02 May 2014)...
  Spoiler:

  Though in the manga Kaiōshin said that Bibidi made him, the truth is that one called “Buu” was not actually created by Bididi, but has existed since time immemorial. He cycled between rampages and long hibernation. During numerous iterations of this cycle, he absorbed the evil elements of mankind, becoming steadily more violent. Bibidi merely knew the means of calling Buu from out of his long slumber. Since the current Buu is a slightly different life-form due to the changes brought about when the evil Buu was expelled, it’s not known whether he’ll still go into long hibernation.

  ...I'm under the impression that Boo absorbed stuff like evil elements of mankind randomly, so if he absorbs gods it could affect him in a different way. If those gods somehow knew this, they could force Boo to absorb them and avoid his troublesome rampages. That would justify also killing Bibidi.
  
  And speaking from myself, I have experimented things that didn't do any good to me, if not close to kill me sometimes, but I still insist on them. Maybe I'm senile.

[Hitiro]

I think the guidebook compared those characters in a way it could be as obvious as possible, because Vegeta lost to Good Boo while Gotenks was pretty much equal to Evil Boo. Guess there is no need to specify the form at all. It is also possible that Gotenks' power-up doesn't follow the same rules from Goku's. For example, if Evil Boo's bp is Good Boo's bp x2, SS3 Gotenks' bp could be SS Gotenks' bp x2 as well. Indeed, I still have a hard time picturing lesser forms of Gotenks as above SS2-tier characters, but given how SS Gotenks faired against Evil Boo, who knows? By the way, are Toei Animation or Shueisha responsible for those guidebooks?

The guide books make a habit of not being too obvious when it comes to Goku. They have no problem saying Gohan is stronger than Vegeta or Gotenks. But whenever the point is brought up in relations to Goku they purposely avoid making us draw any conclusions. It's the same with Gotenks. I forget which guide it is in but the way they describe Gohan with his unlocked potential after the Rou Kaioshin did it does not in any way suggest that he has surpassed Goku. At least in my opinion.

I would be so disappointed with an one-shot ending, that I would prefer Boo to be at least at Gohan's level, like Cell was back then, and like Freeza was far back then (at Goku's level alias).

Exactly. So Toriyama would have to avoid that by making plot convenient points. Like Vegeta claiming it is time the Earth saved itself for once.

I like the input you gave to this point, absorbing someone in response to get better by doing so is a damn good idea, but we don't know exactly how things happened between South Kaioshin and Boo. I would like to see Toriyama giving some deep context about this event. By reading Saikyō Jump June 2014 Issue (02 May 2014)...

Spoiler:

Though in the manga Kaiōshin said that Bibidi made him, the truth is that one called “Buu” was not actually created by Bididi, but has existed since time immemorial. He cycled between rampages and long hibernation. During numerous iterations of this cycle, he absorbed the evil elements of mankind, becoming steadily more violent. Bibidi merely knew the means of calling Buu from out of his long slumber. Since the current Buu is a slightly different life-form due to the changes brought about when the evil Buu was expelled, it’s not known whether he’ll still go into long hibernation.

...I'm under the impression that Boo absorbed stuff like evil elements of mankind randomly, so if he absorbs gods it could affect him in a different way. If those gods somehow knew this, they could force Boo to absorb them and avoid his troublesome rampages. That would justify also killing Bibidi.

Sure, but like its been said. There is only one line in the manga that could suggest to Kaioshin affecting him negatively. But from what we see of the manga Boo's power increased with the S. Kaioshin Boo and then Goku claims he can beat Pure Boo. So Boo went from being unbeatable, according to Goku, to being more unbeatable because Goku said his power was increasing in the S. Kaioshin form to just being on par with a suppressed SSJ3 Goku and Goku claims he could beat him with 100% of his power. So including this stuff the line that could be construed as multiple Kaioshin affecting him negatively seems unlikely given what happens in the story.

And speaking from myself, I have experimented things that didn't do any good to me, if not close to kill me sometimes, but I still insist on them. Maybe I'm senile. [/list]

Like what? Because there are things that you have tried that may cause something bad but you may get something good from it too. Like smoking is bad for you but it has an addictive quality that releases endorphins in your brain which are a good sensation.

[RandomGuy96]

I think the anime uses "dangerous" instead of "troublesome."

Probably where I got it from. The Viz big's say that he was "the most difficult one."

Viz also says that none of Buu's absorptions actually lowered his power, even Dai Kaioshin. So, it's a bad source to use if one wants to argue that Elder Kaioshin's comment actually means something in regards to strength.