Did Kid Buu absorb Southern Kaioshin only to avoid losing?

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RandomGuy96
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Re: Did Kid Buu absorb Southern Kaioshin only to avoid losin

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sat Dec 20, 2014 4:20 pm

BejitaSama wrote:Have you a phobia of Pure Buu ? It's amazing to see how the idea of him being stronger than Super Buu makes you so virulent :lol:

You really are "locked" to think that only your perceptions are possible.
There's no phobia or virulent behavior. It's a simple recognition of facts. I'm surprised you haven't realized that by now, given how your arguments are shot down every time you try to bring them up, even- no, especially when I'm not even involved.

But I guess everyone is just wrong and has emotional and mental issues 'cept you, right?
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Did Kid Buu absorb Southern Kaioshin only to avoid losin

Post by BejitaSama » Sat Dec 20, 2014 4:27 pm

There's no phobia or virulent behavior. It's a simple recognition of facts. I'm surprised you haven't realized that by now, given how your arguments are shot down every time you try to bring them up, even- no, especially when I'm not even involved.
My argument are shot down ? :lol: I don't think at all. It's not because at a moment I stop to reply that you are the "winner" or that you won the debate. It's just that I don't want to spare more time in a conversation where my interlocutor doesn't give a sh** of what i'm saying, and when he's always repeating the same thing. It's not a debate, with you it's a monologue. And furthermore, I have other things to do in my life !

And I never said that you were wrong, just that I could be right. Don't try to make me the silly one.
Last edited by BejitaSama on Sat Dec 20, 2014 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Did Kid Buu absorb Southern Kaioshin only to avoid losin

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sat Dec 20, 2014 4:29 pm

BejitaSama wrote:
There's no phobia or virulent behavior. It's a simple recognition of facts. I'm surprised you haven't realized that by now, given how your arguments are shot down every time you try to bring them up, even- no, especially when I'm not even involved.
My argument are shot down ? :lol: I don't think at all. It's not because at a moment I stop to reply that you are the "winner" or that you won the debate. It's just that I don't want to spare more time in a conversation where my interlocutor doesn't give a sh** of what i'm saying, and when he's always repeating the same thing. It's not a debate, with you it's a monologue. And furthermore, I have other things to do in my life !
I'm not talking about about me. I'm pointing out how literally every time you bring this up, a bunch of people jump out of nowhere to shoot down your arguments. Then you eventually just stop responding, post the same BS again later, and act shocked when more people call it BS.

This isn't even a debate. It's outright stated and shown that Pure Buu is weaker than most of the versions that have SK inside.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Did Kid Buu absorb Southern Kaioshin only to avoid losin

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Sat Dec 20, 2014 4:43 pm

Well, most of his statements about being awestruck at their abilities seemed to stem from them being of the lower world than in general.
Most, but not all of them.
He was bewildered by the idea of humans having such tremendous power, not that the power itself was beyond anything he had really witnessed.
Kibito: “Huh…!? You can’t mean…Does this have anything to do with Son Gohan…?”
Kaioshin: “That’s right…His power is far beyond our imagination. If we took it and changed it into something even more unreal, he might be able to surpass Majin Boo…”
Kibito: “Wh-what!? That can’t be…”
Kaioshin: “You didn’t see how amazing those 3 Saiyans were, so you probably couldn’t imagine…”
So I think it's a combination of them being humans and having unimaginable power. This doesn't necessarily say the Saiyans are stronger than SK or vice versa, but we know Kaioshin places the Saiyans power on a pretty high pedestal along with Majin Boo.
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Re: Did Kid Buu absorb Southern Kaioshin only to avoid losin

Post by Darkprince410 » Sat Dec 20, 2014 10:23 pm

BejitaSama wrote:
You really are narrow minded to think that only your perceptions are possible.
There's really no need for that kind of insulting statement.

Toriyama doesn't write deep and intricate plots that require mass-conspiracy level pins on a cork board connected with thread to figure out. With very, very few exceptions (that always get pointed out after, so it's not left ambiguous), what we're shown and told is pretty much what should be taken at face value. Going by the simplest and most straight forward of thinking, which is usually how Toriyama's plots go, Evil Buu is stronger than Pure Buu. Goku says he and Vegeta are no match for Evil Buu's strength, and then later says that he can beat Pure Buu on his own (and maintains that he could until his body gave out on him).

There's nothing pointing to Goku lying about their chances against Evil Buu because he just wanted to keep Vegeta safe, otherwise that fact would have been mentioned. The statement is made with nothing contradicting it, so it has to be taken at face value.

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Re: Did Kid Buu absorb Southern Kaioshin only to avoid losin

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Dec 20, 2014 11:23 pm

Should I suppose people who read official stuff here and take uncontradicted character statements at face value, without critizing the storytelling so far, have authority to say one must think the same strict way? Responding that maybe there are other ways to view things or that the story may have its flaws is an insult now? This kind of response seems a bit harsh, I admit, but I still don't get the spirit of this community. I was even asked once by the staff to get back in my words because of a simple "please, stop", that I typed in a stressed way in reaction and didn't even have time to provide a context, given the immediacy of the warning. Things get complicated when one lacks respect towards his neighbor just for the sake of rules. I have lost a dear friend to cancer last week and it is really sad how people waste their time with the kind of treatment I'm seeing on this in-universe section. I'm willing to have fun here, but it has been very difficult. Maybe I should move to other sections and give up on this one?

On topic, Pure Boo could have absorbed South Kaioshin for whatever reason Mr. Toriyama needed to explain that bulked state of Boo. Though, I think it would be completely in-character for Pure Boo, because he likes to do things by accident, without any hesitation. I don't think he was willing to get any stronger or would react this way just to avoid losing. Imo, the South Kaioshin wasn't even stronger than Gohan was at when he pulled the Z Sword out of the stone monument, then he shouldn't exactly force Pure Boo to absorb him. In another hand, there is room to different interpretations.

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Re: Did Kid Buu absorb Southern Kaioshin only to avoid losin

Post by Darkprince410 » Sat Dec 20, 2014 11:37 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:Should I suppose people who read official stuff here and take uncontradicted character statements at face value, without critizing the storytelling so far, have authority to say one must think the same strict way? Responding that maybe there are other ways to view things or that the story may have its flaws is an insult now? This kind of response seems a bit harsh, I admit, but I still don't get the spirit of this community.
If that was directed at my comment, I would have said it regardless of the situation. If someone is going to debate a topic, then they need to debate the topic. I found his comment to be of an insulting nature, not just for the "narrow-minded" part, but for the rest of it as well. He acted like there was some bias towards trying to make Pure Buu out to being weak, like there were no facts supporting it and we're just narrow-minded for thinking otherwise.

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Re: Did Kid Buu absorb Southern Kaioshin only to avoid losin

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Dec 20, 2014 11:50 pm

Darkprince410 wrote:If that was directed at my comment, I would have said it regardless of the situation. If someone is going to debate a topic, then they need to debate the topic. I found his comment to be of an insulting nature, not just for the "narrow-minded" part, but for the rest of it as well. He acted like there was some bias towards trying to make Pure Buu out to being weak, like there were no facts supporting it and we're just narrow-minded for thinking otherwise.
It was directed at the community in general. Though I think in a similar manner, I don't aprove this particular member's overall attitude towards his own and the others opinion, but honestly neither yours in this regard is that different, @Prince. Maybe I'm completely wrong about you and I apologize if that is the case. More importantly, I should review my own attitude sometimes. As for the topic, I recognize your point and I don't see any problem.

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Re: Did Kid Buu absorb Southern Kaioshin only to avoid losin

Post by BejitaSama » Sun Dec 21, 2014 4:45 am

There's really no need for that kind of insulting statement.
He acted like there was some bias towards trying to make Pure Buu out to being weak, like there were no facts supporting it and we're just narrow-minded for thinking otherwise.
:shock: Are you serious ?

So, I am the guy who try to impose his vision ? This is extraordinary. Read again my post, I said a lot of times that I didn't say that other opinions were wrong. That's just you and some of you friends that can't admit the idea that there is other possibilities.

I never said that you were saying bullshit, just as he did it :
post the same BS again late
This is crazy.
Should I suppose people who read official stuff here and take uncontradicted character statements at face value, without critizing the storytelling so far, have authority to say one must think the same strict way? Responding that maybe there are other ways to view things or that the story may have its flaws is an insult now? This kind of response seems a bit harsh, I admit, but I still don't get the spirit of this community.
Thanks, this is exactly what I think.

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Re: Did Kid Buu absorb Southern Kaioshin only to avoid losin

Post by Darkprince410 » Sun Dec 21, 2014 5:57 am

That's just you and some of you friends that can't admit the idea that there is other possibilities.
The thing is though is that, looking at it as straightforward as possible, those "possibilities" don't work. The two "points" you bring up as evidence that South Kaioushin weakened Buu are easily counterable, whereas the points we bring up don't really have any counters to them whatsoever.

1) You mention that the East Kaioushin and Kibito being rejected by Dabura for restoring Buu means that their ki is incompatible with Buu...why? Why is it specifically the nature of their ki that makes them unusable? One can easily argue that, given the context of the statement, that it was the size of their ki that made them unusable. He goes right from saying that they can't use their ki to pointing out that Goku and the other Saiya-jin have marvelous ki, and Babi-di confirms with him that they'd get more than enough to revive Buu just from them. Nothing is suggested that it's the nature of their ki, but just that they weren't powerful enough to do the trick, which fits what we know about their strength.

2) You mention the Potaras not working within Buu. This again doesn't actually speak to whether the Kaioushin themselves are incompatible, because when it comes to absorptions, we're talking about ki, not magic. Buu is a magical being that has existed since time immemorial, and the effects of the Potara are themselves some form of Kaioushin magic. As such, it'd make sense that there might be some incompatibility with the ambient magic inside Buu's body and the effects of the Potara. That being said, that doesn't end up meaning that a Kaioushin would have the same incompatible nature. While they do practice magic to an extent, they're not entirely made of magic. If they were made of magic, then sure, it'd make sense for them not to interact correctly, but they're not. They still are ki based, predominantly, just with the ability to practice magic.

You also mentioned that Goku's seemingly lied to Vegeta about their need to fuse in order to beat Evil Buu because he wanted to protect Vegeta, because if he died again, he'd cease to exist entirely. That doesn't make sense given what we're shown if we go by your belief that Pure Buu is stronger. If Pure Buu is stronger than Evil Buu is, that would be all the more necessary of a situation for them to fuse to protect Vegeta's life than before, because Vegeta's still dead throughout most of the battle with Pure Buu, and thus is just as at risk as before. Hell, Goku even lets a dead Vegeta try and stall Buu for a minute rather than suggest something like the Fusion Dance.

You're basically saying that Goku lied to protect Vegeta against one opponent, but is willing to let Vegeta go mess around with someone stronger for a minute or so (AND thinks that Vegeta would be able to last that long against him). For us to believe that his line was a lie, we need evidence to support that it was. However, since nothing is said actually saying or suggesting he was lying, and that Goku's later actions show that he didn't have as high a concern for Vegeta's safety as you're suggesting, then we have to assume that Goku's statement about them being unable to beat Evil Buu is factual, and as a result, Evil Buu is stronger than Pure Buu.

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Re: Did Kid Buu absorb Southern Kaioshin only to avoid losin

Post by dbgtFO » Sun Dec 21, 2014 6:17 am

Darkprince410 wrote:1) You mention that the East Kaioushin and Kibito being rejected by Dabura for restoring Buu means that their ki is incompatible with Buu...why? Why is it specifically the nature of their ki that makes them unusable? One can easily argue that, given the context of the statement, that it was the size of their ki that made them unusable. He goes right from saying that they can't use their ki to pointing out that Goku and the other Saiya-jin have marvelous ki, and Babi-di confirms with him that they'd get more than enough to revive Buu just from them. Nothing is suggested that it's the nature of their ki, but just that they weren't powerful enough to do the trick, which fits what we know about their strength.
That's what I came here to point out :thumbup:

As for topic, I do think South Kaioshin probably due to his strength forced Buu to absorb him, whereas Grand Kaioshin did some magic or something. It's annoying that we aren't given a reason.

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Re: Did Kid Buu absorb Southern Kaioshin only to avoid losin

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sun Dec 21, 2014 6:19 am

As for topic, I do think South Kaioshin probably due to his strength forced Buu to absorb him, whereas Grand Kaioshin did some magic or something. It's annoying that we aren't given a reason.
I think that Buu just decided to absorb Dai Kaioshin because absorbing South Kaioshin worked out well for him. Basic animal instincts.

Question: if SK was really stronger than Pure Buu, then why is Mr. Buu not? And why would the anime show Pure Buu beating him so easily?
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Did Kid Buu absorb Southern Kaioshin only to avoid losin

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Sun Dec 21, 2014 6:23 am

Doesn't Bobbidi assume Spopo and Yamu drained hundreds of humans for that amount of energy? Unless Bobbidi was expecting countless humans to have more power than Kaioshin and Kibito, I seriously doubt he's referring to the size of their power.
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Re: Did Kid Buu absorb Southern Kaioshin only to avoid losin

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sun Dec 21, 2014 6:24 am

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:Doesn't Bobbidi assume Spopo and Yamu drained hundreds of humans for that amount of energy? Unless Bobbidi was expecting countless humans to have more power than Kaioshin and Kibtio, I seriously doubt he's referring to the size of their power.
He also expected three base saiyans to fill up the energy meter, which wasn't even filled halfway by SS2 Gohan. I think the point here is "Babidi doesn't know jack".
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Did Kid Buu absorb Southern Kaioshin only to avoid losin

Post by Hugo Boss » Sun Dec 21, 2014 9:43 am

By humans he could expect the same as Kibito, not exactly an average human. Maybe he knew somehow that the strongest humans in the world would show up in the Budokai. And by hundreds, I assume SS2 Gohan is hundreds of times stronger than Babidi was thinking a human would be.

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Re: Did Kid Buu absorb Southern Kaioshin only to avoid losin

Post by OWmyDragonBallz » Sun Dec 21, 2014 10:39 am

South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest of them was stated to "somehow" be absorbed by Boo. I always saw that part implying that his strength had Boo on edge, therefore Boo resorting to absorbing him because of his power.
I took him absorbing Dai Kaioshin because he was still plainly psychotic and had no self-control, or maybe he liked the absorption technique and wanted to do it again, but didn't know it would corrupt his power.

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Re: Did Kid Buu absorb Southern Kaioshin only to avoid losin

Post by VegettoEX » Sun Dec 21, 2014 1:47 pm

Enough with the short tempers, "Nuh uh / yeah huh / no you"-type responses. If you're not willing to have a real conversation, we're not willing to have you here.
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Re: Did Kid Buu absorb Southern Kaioshin only to avoid losin

Post by Galan007 » Tue Dec 23, 2014 11:31 pm

Angelus wrote:Meaning that Southern Kaioshin was more powerful than Kid Buu and since Kid Buu couldn't find a way to win... just opted to absorb Southern Kaioshin?

Also implying that Southern Supreme Kai is SSJ3 tier?
Based on statements/feats: Buff Buu(South Kaioshin absorbed)>Super Buu>>Kid Buu. For South Kaioshin to increase Pure Buu's power to beyond Super Buu-level means he must have been extremely powerful--moreso than Pure Buu by a good margin, imo. Regardless, Buu doesn't typically absorb others unless they possess power ~/> his own. That said, I feel confident in assuming that South Kaioshin was around Pure Buu's level at the very least.

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Re: Did Kid Buu absorb Southern Kaioshin only to avoid losin

Post by Hitiro » Tue Dec 23, 2014 11:59 pm

Galan007 wrote:
Angelus wrote:Meaning that Southern Kaioshin was more powerful than Kid Buu and since Kid Buu couldn't find a way to win... just opted to absorb Southern Kaioshin?

Also implying that Southern Supreme Kai is SSJ3 tier?
Based on statements/feats: Buff Buu(South Kaioshin absorbed)>Super Buu>>Kid Buu. For South Kaioshin to increase Pure Buu's power to beyond Super Buu-level means he must have been extremely powerful--moreso than Pure Buu by a good margin, imo. Regardless, Buu doesn't typically absorb others unless they possess power ~/> his own. That said, I feel confident in assuming that South Kaioshin was around Pure Buu's level at the very least.
It honestly depends on if the Dai Kaioshin portion of Boo was still reigning in some of Boo's power in the Evil Boo(Super Boo)'s form. S. Kaioshin could be something like SSJ2 level but have really damaging techniques and skills to help him perform better than Boo, for instance. It could look like something like this for example:

Dai Kaioshin: 5
S. Kaioshin: 10
Evil Boo(Super Boo): 40 + 10 - 5 = 45
S. Kaioshin Boo: 40 + 10 = 50
Pure Boo: 40

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Re: Did Kid Buu absorb Southern Kaioshin only to avoid losin

Post by Galan007 » Wed Dec 24, 2014 12:15 am

When Goku/Vegeta noted that Buff Buu's ki>Super Buu's ki, Mr. Buu was technically no longer 'part' of Evil Buu, as his connection had been completely severed --this is what triggered Super Buu's regression into Pure Buu, after all-- thus, Mr. Buu's energies *shouldn't* have registered as part of Buff Buu's ki, any more than they registered as part of Pure Buu's ki.

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