Was Goku referring to Gogeta, when he said fusion, in BoG?

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Was Goku referring to Gogeta, when he said fusion, in BoG?

Post by Angelus » Tue Dec 23, 2014 1:36 am

Now that I think about it, Elder Kai already told Goku that Potara fusion only works once. Meaning, if Goku and Vegeta were to put on a Potara earring, it will no longer work. Goku had to be referring to fusing via the metamoran dance resulting in Gogeta when he said "To get any stronger there ain't no choice but to merge with Vegeta, is there? No... even at that , I doubt I could beat him."

Right?

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Re: Was Goku referring to Gogeta, when he said fusion, in Bo

Post by godku23 » Tue Dec 23, 2014 1:40 am

Yeah in the series, they refer to potora as a completely different way of merging.
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Re: Was Goku referring to Gogeta, when he said fusion, in Bo

Post by Herms » Tue Dec 23, 2014 2:04 am

Angelus wrote:Now that I think about it, Elder Kai already told Goku that Potara fusion only works once. Meaning, if Goku and Vegeta were to put on a Potara earring, it will no longer work.
Elder Kaioshin himself later tells Goku and Vegeta to use another pair of Potara to become Vegetto again so they can beat Pure Boo. Meaning apparently you can use Potara a second time, if you've split back up. Presumably when Elder Kaioshin earlier told Goku that Potara can only be used once, it was under the belief that there was no possible way for a Potara-fused being to split back up into the original two people again. So "you can only use the Potara once" is a rule against a fused being fusing a second time to produce some double-fused super-duper being. In other words, Vegetto can't use his Potara to go fuse with Gohan or whoever, but if he splits back up into Goku and Vegeta for some ridiculous reason then he can still use the Potara to become Vegetto once more. At least, that's the only way Elder Kaioshin's two statements can both be true, it seems to me.

We might assume that Elder Kaioshin is just getting mixed up when he tells Goku and Vegeta to use the Potara again to fight Pure Boo, but this would kind of rob the pair's decision not to use the Potara of all meaning. Plus, Elder Kaioshin is still really mad at them afterwards for not using the Potara. If they really couldn't be used a second time under any circumstances, you'd think he'd eventually go "hang on, even if they had put them on, nothing would have happened". The fact that neither he nor anyone else ever makes this point suggests it's not true, and that the earrings would have been able to fuse Goku and Vegeta together a second time.

Of course, in BoG there's the question of where Goku would get another set of Potara, since they were all smashed by the end of the Boo arc. But the two Kaioshins had earrings on during the movie, right? I guess they just made some more Potara, or found them or something, unless they're just wearing ordinary earrings now.
Goku had to be referring to fusing via the metamoran dance resulting in Gogeta when he said "To get any stronger there ain't no choice but to merge with Vegeta, is there? No... even at that , I doubt I could beat him."

Right?
Not necessarily. The English word "Fusion" is what they use in Japanese to refer specifically to the Metamoran Fusion technique ("Fusion" is used as a proper name, which naturally becomes a bit tricky when the whole thing is translated into English). However, gattai is used to refer to both Metamoran Fusion and Potara fusion (despite what the Daizenshuu EX transformation guide said back in Ye Olden Days). And then there's a few other random words used sometimes too. I'd have to go check to see what's used in the movie though.
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Re: Was Goku referring to Gogeta, when he said fusion, in Bo

Post by TheDevilsCorpse » Tue Dec 23, 2014 2:15 am

Herms wrote:So "you can only use the Potara once" is a rule against a fused being fusing a second time to produce some double-fused super-duper being. In other words, Vegetto can't use his Potara to go fuse with Gohan or someone, but if he splits back up into Goku and Vegeta for some ridiculous reason he can still use the Potara to become Vegetto once more. At least, that's the only way Elder Kaioshin's two statements can both be true, it seems to me.
Is it though? I was assuming the "you can only use the Potara once in your lifetime" bit was because the fusion is supposed to be permanent. After Goku fused with Vegeta into Vegetto, Goku was never supposed to exist on his own again and therefore would be unable to fuse a second time. Though Vegetto might still be able to? Not that he would need to.

As for the Battle of Gods question, I'd say it's very likely that Goku was only talking about Gogeta since it's a much more reliable and less permanent technique, and thus a much more valid option. To be fair though, Beerus was described as being the strongest in the history of Z (while they were still saving the Whis reveal) during the film's promotion, so you could apply it to Vegetto as well. Whether you want to seems to be a hot topic for fans, about where Vegetto and Beerus rank against each other.
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Re: Was Goku referring to Gogeta, when he said fusion, in Bo

Post by Herms » Tue Dec 23, 2014 3:32 am

TheDevilsCorpse wrote:Is it though? I was assuming the "you can only use the Potara once in your lifetime" bit was because the fusion is supposed to be permanent. After Goku fused with Vegeta into Vegetto, Goku was never supposed to exist on his own again and therefore would be unable to fuse a second time. Though Vegetto might still be able to? Not that he would need to.
So in other words, Goku can never use the Potara a second time because after the first time, he won't be "Goku" anymore? That makes sense too, I hadn't thought of that. Anyway, my main point isn't whether or not Vegetto could merge with someone else (though I still don't quite like that idea, if only because I don't want to think of the ridiculous names that would result), but that Goku and Vegeta probably could have re-merged back into Vegetto, had they chosen to.
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Re: Was Goku referring to Gogeta, when he said fusion, in Bo

Post by Tectorman » Tue Dec 23, 2014 7:51 am

Three sets of earrings, two for the Supreme Kai, two for the Elder Kai, two for Kibito. Four of those earrings get destroyed, leaving two remaining.

Vegetto remains canonically possible, even if the Kais never made any more Potara.

The film has two different lines. The sub has Goku supposing that he and Vegeta need to merge (this refers to either Fusion). The dub has Goku saying that he and Vegeta need to perform Fusion, which suggests the Dance more than the Potara.

But given the continued existence of at least one more set of Potara and Toriyama's establishing of Beers as stronger than any DBZ manga character, I think we're supposed to take that as meaning Vegetto, not Gogeta.
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Re: Was Goku referring to Gogeta, when he said fusion, in Bo

Post by Low Tone G » Tue Dec 23, 2014 8:05 am

Tectorman wrote:Three sets of earrings, two for the Supreme Kai, two for the Elder Kai, two for Kibito. Four of those earrings get destroyed, leaving two remaining.

Vegetto remains canonically possible, even if the Kais never made any more Potara.

The film has two different lines. The sub has Goku supposing that he and Vegeta need to merge (this refers to either Fusion). The dub has Goku saying that he and Vegeta need to perform Fusion, which suggests the Dance more than the Potara.

But given the continued existence of at least one more set of Potara and Toriyama's establishing of Beers as stronger than any DBZ manga character, I think we're supposed to take that as meaning Vegetto, not Gogeta.
That's it. Vegetto was entirely possible. If he were the right being to defeat Beerus, Toriyama would a find a way split Goku and Vegeta once more afterwards. I can think either of entering in Mr. Buu's body, or Whis could have find a way to do it, if he can alter the reality.(If we can count that scene where he enters in the Bulma's plane without breaking the window, a reality warping technique reveal).
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Re: Was Goku referring to Gogeta, when he said fusion, in Bo

Post by Angelus » Tue Dec 23, 2014 11:42 am

Just something to add... Kibito Kai can make more pairs of Potara earrings easily. Kibito clothes-beamed Gohan with a Kai outfit before, complete with earrings. Gohan preferred to wear Goku's outfit though, so Kibito clothes-beamed Gohan again into Goku's outfit. But anyways, with that clothes-beam that Kibito has, Kibito Kai would be capable of that too.

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Re: Was Goku referring to Gogeta, when he said fusion, in Bo

Post by Tectorman » Tue Dec 23, 2014 1:31 pm

Angelus wrote:Just something to add... Kibito Kai can make more pairs of Potara earrings easily. Kibito clothes-beamed Gohan with a Kai outfit before, complete with earrings. Gohan preferred to wear Goku's outfit though, so Kibito clothes-beamed Gohan again into Goku's outfit. But anyways, with that clothes-beam that Kibito has, Kibito Kai would be capable of that too.
I agree and disagree. Kibito can clothes-beam and it's revealed that neither he nor the Supreme Kai knew the earrings were special. So he certainly could have been making Potara earrings by the truckload all this time without knowing it.

On the other hand, the Elder Kai says that the earrings are an ancient treasure of the Kais. Not sure of the exact phrasing, but the gist is that while Kibito might be able to make Potara earrings at will, the three sets already in existence were as old as dirt.

It doesn't specifically say so, but I always took it to mean that they're special because they're old, and only gain that power by fermenting, I guess.

I.e., Goku and Vegeta Potara fusing with a new set might be no more powerful than Goku and Hercule Potara fusing with an ancient set.
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Re: Was Goku referring to Gogeta, when he said fusion, in Bo

Post by Darkprince410 » Tue Dec 23, 2014 2:05 pm

Tectorman wrote: On the other hand, the Elder Kai says that the earrings are an ancient treasure of the Kais. Not sure of the exact phrasing, but the gist is that while Kibito might be able to make Potara earrings at will, the three sets already in existence were as old as dirt.
That's not exactly what was said though. Rou Kaioushin comments that they've been the trump card treasure of the Kaioushin since long ago. That doesn't indicate that the particular pairs that were available now were truly ancient (apart from Rou's pair), but that the Potara, in general, have been their secret weapon for ages.

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Re: Was Goku referring to Gogeta, when he said fusion, in Bo

Post by singsing » Tue Dec 23, 2014 2:15 pm

Damn, Goku and Vegeta are dicks for just crushing those earrings then :lol:

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Re: Was Goku referring to Gogeta, when he said fusion, in Bo

Post by CatouttaHell » Thu Dec 25, 2014 2:15 am

Beerus >>> SSj God Goku >>> SSj3 Vegetto IMO.

I feel that if Son was talking about Metamorian instead of Potara he'd be more clear about it. To me it sounded like he was trying to say that Fusion altogether would not work against Beerus.

I also feel that the V-Jump claim that Beerus is by far the strongest being in the history of Z means he's stronger than SSj3 Vegetto as well. Vegetto is a Z character so for Beerus to be >>> him he must be >>> his higher forms too. If Son says that Vegeta has surpassed him that means Vegeta > SSj3 Goku not just SSj2 Goku...

SSj God seems to be the next step in the logical progression of power in Dragon Ball, so it should be >>> anything Potara can do IMO. Beerus could be >>> even Ultimate/SSj3 Gokhan by that logic though........

SSj God >>> Potara >>> Metamorian >>> SSj3 >>> SSj2 >>> FPSSj >>> SSjG2 >>> SSj >>> Ozaru >>> base
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Re: Was Goku referring to Gogeta, when he said fusion, in Bo

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Dec 25, 2014 5:30 am

We don't even know if Vegetto can turn SSJ3 or even SSJ2.

I only take into account SSJ1 Vegetto in that quote, which Beerus completely crushes.

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Re: Was Goku referring to Gogeta, when he said fusion, in Bo

Post by CatouttaHell » Thu Dec 25, 2014 2:46 pm

Why would Vegetto not be a SSj2/SSj3? He had no trouble going SSj. Vegetto not being able to go SSj3 is like him not knowing how to fire a Kamehameha because Vegeta doesn't know that technique IMO.
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Re: Was Goku referring to Gogeta, when he said fusion, in Bo

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Thu Dec 25, 2014 2:50 pm

Vegetto as a Super Saiyan 3 is a god himself, no silly cat could surpass Vegetto

SSJ3 Vegetto ~ Whis >> Beerus >>>>> Suppressed Beerus > Base Vegetto >= SSJ3 Gogeta

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Re: Was Goku referring to Gogeta, when he said fusion, in Bo

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Dec 25, 2014 3:42 pm

I think Goku was referring to fusion in general, then it might be either Vegetto or Gogeta. If Vegetto can somehow achieve Super Saiyan 3, maybe things could get a little more interesting, but I don't see the reason to not try it as Gogeta.

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Re: Was Goku referring to Gogeta, when he said fusion, in Bo

Post by Saitou Hajime » Fri Dec 26, 2014 6:34 am

So what term did Goku in the original Japanese when referring to a merger in the extended scene?

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Re: Was Goku referring to Gogeta, when he said fusion, in Bo

Post by Low Tone G » Fri Dec 26, 2014 10:06 am

Saitou Hajime wrote:So what term did Goku in the original Japanese when referring to a merger in the extended scene?
I checked it out, he didn't say fusion at all, I couldn't hear that, he said something else instead. So it's more sure to say he meant Vegetto, as he only only knows the effects of potara merging in case of himself and Vegeta, as Gogeta does not appear in Toriyama's storyline.
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Re: Was Goku referring to Gogeta, when he said fusion, in Bo

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Fri Dec 26, 2014 10:13 am

Low Tone G wrote:
Saitou Hajime wrote:So what term did Goku in the original Japanese when referring to a merger in the extended scene?
I checked it out, he didn't say fusion at all, I couldn't hear that, he said something else instead. So it's more sure to say he meant Vegetto, as he only only knows the effects of potara merging in case of himself and Vegeta, as Gogeta does not appear in Toriyama's storyline.
Goku just said the generic "merge", which means that he could mean both Fusion & Potara.
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Re: Was Goku referring to Gogeta, when he said fusion, in Bo

Post by Low Tone G » Fri Dec 26, 2014 10:18 am

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Low Tone G wrote:
Saitou Hajime wrote:So what term did Goku in the original Japanese when referring to a merger in the extended scene?
I checked it out, he didn't say fusion at all, I couldn't hear that, he said something else instead. So it's more sure to say he meant Vegetto, as he only only knows the effects of potara merging in case of himself and Vegeta, as Gogeta does not appear in Toriyama's storyline.
Goku just said the generic "merge", which means that he could mean both Fusion & Potara.
I agree! But being that Toriyama did not incorporate Gogeta in the manga, I can say a potara fusion is more likely one in this case. And there were potara earrings to perform the fusion with no problem.
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