Are Androids 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

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Are Androids 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by MarCas92 » Sat Dec 27, 2014 6:07 am

We know for a fact 17 and 18 are stronger than Freeza. But what about 19 and 20? I mean, Piccolo was a little stronger than 2nd form Freeza and about 4 years later he is more than a match for 20. If he is stronger than Freeza, that's a pretty unbelievable leap.

Also on a side note. Why would Tenshinhan, Yamcha and Kuririn show up? They know these Androids are supposedly stronger than Freeza and they show up? Do they honestly think they would be any help at all? I highly doubt 3 years of training would boost them from power levels less than 100,000 to anywhere close to 120,000,000 million.
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Re: Are Android's 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by Low Tone G » Sat Dec 27, 2014 8:35 am

MarCas92 wrote:We know for a fact 17 and 18 are stronger than Freeza. But what about 19 and 20? I mean, Piccolo was a little stronger than 2nd form Freeza and about 4 years later he is more than a match for 20. If he is stronger than Freeza, that's a pretty unbelievable leap.

Also on a side note. Why would Tenshinhan, Yamcha and Kuririn show up? They know these Androids are supposedly stronger than Freeza and they show up? Do they honestly think they would be any help at all? I highly doubt 3 years of training would boost them from power levels less than 100,000 to anywhere close to 120,000,000 million.
Yes they are. Piccolo was stated by Krillin to on par with a Super Saiyan.
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Re: Are Android's 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by OWmyDragonBallz » Sat Dec 27, 2014 9:04 am

Low Tone G wrote:
MarCas92 wrote:We know for a fact 17 and 18 are stronger than Freeza. But what about 19 and 20? I mean, Piccolo was a little stronger than 2nd form Freeza and about 4 years later he is more than a match for 20. If he is stronger than Freeza, that's a pretty unbelievable leap.

Also on a side note. Why would Tenshinhan, Yamcha and Kuririn show up? They know these Androids are supposedly stronger than Freeza and they show up? Do they honestly think they would be any help at all? I highly doubt 3 years of training would boost them from power levels less than 100,000 to anywhere close to 120,000,000 million.
Yes they are. Piccolo was stated by Krillin to on par with a Super Saiyan.
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Re: Are Android's 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Sat Dec 27, 2014 9:04 am

Low Tone G wrote:
MarCas92 wrote:We know for a fact 17 and 18 are stronger than Freeza. But what about 19 and 20? I mean, Piccolo was a little stronger than 2nd form Freeza and about 4 years later he is more than a match for 20. If he is stronger than Freeza, that's a pretty unbelievable leap.

Also on a side note. Why would Tenshinhan, Yamcha and Kuririn show up? They know these Androids are supposedly stronger than Freeza and they show up? Do they honestly think they would be any help at all? I highly doubt 3 years of training would boost them from power levels less than 100,000 to anywhere close to 120,000,000 million.
Yes they are. Piccolo was stated by Krillin to on par with a Super Saiyan.
Why does that have any bearing on whether or not 19 and 20 are stronger than Freeza? All that shows is that they are weaker than Piccolo.
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Re: Are Android's 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by Son_Gohan » Sat Dec 27, 2014 10:37 am

I take Krillin's remarks to Goku after he recovered from the heart virus as an implication that they weren't stronger than Freeza:
Chapter: 366 (DBZ 172), P4.5-6
Kuririn: “Goku, tell us—This thing’s even more terrible than Freeza. Are you scared by that? Or excited?”
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Re: Are Android's 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by FoolsGil » Sat Dec 27, 2014 10:43 am

The jury is out on that one. Goku and Vegeta had to become Super Saiyans to fight the Androids, but the SSJ has such a large gap from base Saiyan, the Androids could be anywhere in power between base and 50x base.
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Re: Are Android's 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by Saiga » Sat Dec 27, 2014 10:48 am

Son_Gohan wrote:I take Krillin's remarks to Goku after he recovered from the heart virus as an implication that they weren't stronger than Freeza:
Chapter: 366 (DBZ 172), P4.5-6
Kuririn: “Goku, tell us—This thing’s even more terrible than Freeza. Are you scared by that? Or excited?”
Goku: “…Both…”
But that would imply the same thing about 17 and 18, would it not? I think "more terrible" might just refer to Cell being more eeeeevul because he eats people.
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Re: Are Android's 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by Darkprince410 » Sat Dec 27, 2014 1:55 pm

Low Tone G wrote: Yes they are. Piccolo was stated by Krillin to on par with a Super Saiyan.
That's not quite what he said though. Kuririn's exact line was:
“He’s st-strong…! What kind of training did Piccolo do…And he’s not even a Su-Super Saiyan…”
That line doesn't explicitly say that he's on par with a Super Saiya-jin, just that he's got a really high battle power, and doing really well against Gero, for someone that's not a Super Saiya-jin.

Gero designed the strength of #19 and himself based around a very low estimation of Goku's strength (probably not breaking the 100k mark), so it's not very likely that he'd feel the need to make his strength that much higher. Given that a virus-weakened Goku, in his base form, was able to stagger Gero with a punch, and then Vegeta was able to land a pronounced kick on #19, even after having absorbed a good chunk of Goku's weakened ki, I would say that they're both, without absorbing ki, a good deal weaker than Freeza.

I personally don't see #19 or Gero, unboosted, being outside of the 10 million range.

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Re: Are Android's 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Sat Dec 27, 2014 2:36 pm

Yeah, the Krillin quote is only comparing Cell to Freeza. I doubt it has anything to do with #19 and #20.

All we really know is these Androids are weaker than the Super Saiyans and Piccolo. No matter how you look at it, Piccolo had a tremendous power-up after the 3 yrs of training. Whether you think he's around 50% Freeza, 100% Freeza, or Super Saiyan Goku on namek, Piccolo ends up gaining a ridiculous amount of power.
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Re: Are Android's 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by Son_Gohan » Sat Dec 27, 2014 2:40 pm

Saiga wrote: But that would imply the same thing about 17 and 18, would it not? I think "more terrible" might just refer to Cell being more eeeeevul because he eats people.
I don't think so because Goku actually acknowledges just a moment earlier that he cannot beat the androids. But Cell would simply take the androids out of the equation by merging with them, warranting the emphasis on him being a greater threat.

In the VIZ translation Krillin just flat-out says "stronger". Now if #19 and #20 were in fact stronger than Freeza I don't think it makes much sense for him to say such a thing because they were preparing for just that enemy in mind for 3 years, and Goku actually fought with the initial ones that appeared. Yet their existence is not being acknowledged at all at that point, while Freeza's power is apparently significant enough to be brought up three times since #17 & #18's appearance.

I never got the impression that #19 and #20 were stronger than Freeza while reading the story, and the way they're carelessly written off by the author just reinforces that for me.

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Re: Are Android's 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by rereboy » Sat Dec 27, 2014 2:58 pm

Son_Gohan wrote:
Saiga wrote: But that would imply the same thing about 17 and 18, would it not? I think "more terrible" might just refer to Cell being more eeeeevul because he eats people.
I don't think so because Goku actually acknowledges just a moment earlier that he cannot beat the androids. But Cell would simply take the androids out of the equation by merging with them, warranting the emphasis on him being a greater threat.

In the VIZ translation Krillin just flat-out says "stronger". Now if #19 and #20 were in fact stronger than Freeza I don't think it makes much sense for him to say such a thing because they were preparing for just that enemy in mind for 3 years, and Goku actually fought with the initial ones that appeared. Yet their existence is not being acknowledged at all at that point, while Freeza's power is apparently significant enough to be brought up three times since #17 & #18's appearance.

I never got the impression that #19 and #20 were stronger than Freeza while reading the story, and the way they're carelessly written off by the author just reinforces that for me.
That got written off because of editorial pressure. #19 and #20 were meant to be the actual main villains so obviously they were stronger than Freeza. Due to editorial pressure, adjustments were made and new villains appeared but there is nothing to suggest that because of those adjustments, #19 and #20 became weaker than Freeza in the revised plot. All that was adjusted was that #19 and #20 weren't strong enough, individually, to take on the Super Saiyans and Piccolo after they had trained for 3 years when they were originally supposed to be able to, but that doesn't mean that they weaker than Freeza, who was easily killed off by a SSJ three years before.

And, as it has been said, the quote you mentioned has nothing to do with #19 or #20.

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Re: Are Android's 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by Low Tone G » Sat Dec 27, 2014 3:20 pm

rereboy wrote:
Son_Gohan wrote:
Saiga wrote: But that would imply the same thing about 17 and 18, would it not? I think "more terrible" might just refer to Cell being more eeeeevul because he eats people.
I don't think so because Goku actually acknowledges just a moment earlier that he cannot beat the androids. But Cell would simply take the androids out of the equation by merging with them, warranting the emphasis on him being a greater threat.

In the VIZ translation Krillin just flat-out says "stronger". Now if #19 and #20 were in fact stronger than Freeza I don't think it makes much sense for him to say such a thing because they were preparing for just that enemy in mind for 3 years, and Goku actually fought with the initial ones that appeared. Yet their existence is not being acknowledged at all at that point, while Freeza's power is apparently significant enough to be brought up three times since #17 & #18's appearance.

I never got the impression that #19 and #20 were stronger than Freeza while reading the story, and the way they're carelessly written off by the author just reinforces that for me.
That got written off because of editorial pressure. #19 and #20 were meant to be the actual main villains so obviously they were stronger than Freeza. Due to editorial pressure, adjustments were made and new villains appeared but there is nothing to suggest that because of those adjustments, #19 and #20 became weaker than Freeza in the revised plot. All that was adjusted was that #19 and #20 weren't strong enough, individually, to take on the Super Saiyans and Piccolo after they had trained for 3 years when they were originally supposed to be able to, but that doesn't mean that they weaker than Freeza, who was easily killed off by a SSJ three years before.

And, as it has been said, the quote you mentioned has nothing to do with #19 or #20.

Piccolo were not that weak as people think, there are some hints right in the Mecha Freeza saga. He obviously got stronger in those two years after Freeza's defeat on Namek. As I remember Goku did see the potential in Piccolo to be able to defeat Freeza before learning that Future Trunks was the one who killed Freeza.
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Re: Are Android's 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by Darkprince410 » Sat Dec 27, 2014 4:14 pm

Low Tone G wrote:
Piccolo were not that weak as people think, there are some hints right in the Mecha Freeza saga. He obviously got stronger in those two years after Freeza's defeat on Namek. As I remember Goku did see the potential in Piccolo to be able to defeat Freeza before learning that Future Trunks was the one who killed Freeza.
Just because he knows that Piccolo has the potential to be extremely strong doesn't mean that Piccolo actually was that strong. He sensed a large ki while he was still in space and sensed that it took out Freeza and his father, but wasn't able to tell who it was. As such, he just assumed that it was either Piccolo or Vegeta that had done so, since they were, in his mind, the two best candidates to potentially be able to reach that kind of strength. Vegeta obviously wasn't giving off a level of ki at the time to suggest that he might have been the one to actually do it, but Goku knew that Vegeta was extremely powerful on Namek, and thus would still be extremely strong after. Likewise, Piccolo wasn't giving off a large ki or anything, but because Goku knew he was powerful on Namek, he knew he'd still be strong after.

All that really amounts to is that Goku thought that Piccolo might have become strong enough to do it since Namek, not that he actually had become strong enough to do so (and we know for certain that he wasn't strong enough to be able to do so, so really Goku's assumption is just wrong).

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Re: Are Android's 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by Son_Gohan » Sat Dec 27, 2014 4:15 pm

rereboy wrote: That got written off because of editorial pressure. #19 and #20 were meant to be the actual main villains so obviously they were stronger than Freeza. Due to editorial pressure, adjustments were made and new villains appeared but there is nothing to suggest that because of those adjustments, #19 and #20 became weaker than Freeza in the revised plot. All that was adjusted was that #19 and #20 weren't strong enough, individually, to take on the Super Saiyans and Piccolo after they had trained for 3 years when they were originally supposed to be able to, but that doesn't mean that they weaker than Freeza, who was easily killed off by a SSJ three years before.

And, as it has been said, the quote you mentioned has nothing to do with #19 or #20.
The androids Trunks warned them about were established to be stronger than Freeza, #19 and #20 turned out to not be those androids, so I can't see that having any bearing on it. You're basically picking and choosing details they should have from a perception that is no longer applicable to them.

In my reckoning, #19 and #20 are not even stronger than Freeza's first form initially and Piccolo is still inferior to Freeza and SSJ Goku on Namek after training for 3 years. Krillin's quote amounts to an indirect statement, that is why it is taken as an implication.

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Re: Are Android's 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by rereboy » Sat Dec 27, 2014 4:26 pm

Son_Gohan wrote:
The androids Trunks warned them about were established to be stronger than Freeza, #19 and #20 turned out to not be those androids, so I can't see that having any bearing on it. You're basically picking and choosing details they should have from a perception that is no longer applicable to them.

In my reckoning, #19 and #20 are not even stronger than Freeza's first form initially and Piccolo is still inferior to Freeza and SSJ Goku on Namek after training for 3 years. Krillin's quote amounts to an indirect statement, that is why it is taken as an implication.
No, actually my point was that them being written off the story (which you mentioned) has no bearing in them being weaker than Freeza at all because there are known reasons for why they were written off the story and even with the revised plot there is nothing that strongly suggests that they are weaker than Freeza. That's what I was explaining.

If anyone is picking and choosing details to support a conclusion is you. I don't even have a conclusion because I don't think there's enough to go on and give us an answer. I have a opinion/theory but I didn't even try to argue it because, a) that wasn't the point of my post and b) its a theory/opinion with no strong support.

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Re: Are Android's 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by Hitiro » Sat Dec 27, 2014 7:45 pm

FoolsGil wrote:The jury is out on that one. Goku and Vegeta had to become Super Saiyans to fight the Androids, but the SSJ has such a large gap from base Saiyan, the Androids could be anywhere in power between base and 50x base.
Would it not be 25x? Both Goku, if he wasn't suffering from the heart disease, and Vegeta could handle them pretty easily as SSJ's so the SSJ's must be at least 2x stronger than the androids. Having the androids at 50x base would mean that they are even with the SSJ's. So if we put the Androids at, at most, 25x base then the SSJ's would be 2x stronger. Also have to factor in that Piccolo had an easy time dealing with #20 too. If you put the Androids at 50x base then Piccolo would be even stronger than the SSJ's for being able to pick apart the Androids who equal the SSJ's.

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Re: Are Android's 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by Son_Gohan » Sat Dec 27, 2014 8:09 pm

rereboy wrote: No, actually my point was that them being written off the story (which you mentioned) has no bearing in them being weaker than Freeza at all because there are known reasons for why they were written off the story and even with the revised plot there is nothing that strongly suggests that they are weaker than Freeza. That's what I was explaining.

If anyone is picking and choosing details to support a conclusion is you. I don't even have a conclusion because I don't think there's enough to go on and give us an answer. I have a opinion/theory but I didn't even try to argue it because, a) that wasn't the point of my post and b) its a theory/opinion with no strong support.
To simply say they are written off is one thing but to assert why is not something you can speak on behalf of the author for. In reference to the Shenlong Times interview for Daizenshuu 2, Toriyama merely establishes that his previous editor called him up to tell him how laughable #19 & #20 looked, prompting him to change their role in the story. He does not express writing them off from the context of power for that reason, that is your own speculation.

It would appear the conclusion you've chosen is that they are stronger than Freeza while trying to take a more neutral, liberated stance on it. If #19 and #20 are not the real androids Trunks prophesied then they are not required to hold any real characteristics of the actual ones. Attempting to just retain the idea that the initial androids should have the same supremacy over Freeza when you already know the foretold powers are not intended to be theirs means you're just being selective towards a favorable viewpoint.

If Freeza's name was brought up in the context of power 3 times since #17 & #18 first appear while the initial androids aren't mentioned at all then I don't need to pick and choose details in that regard, it's all that is being provided at that part in the story. The power of Freeza from 3 years prior is apparently more significant than the initial androids they encountered not too long earlier, and I am free to interpret it as an implication that he is stronger than them. I'm sorry if you take issue with that.

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Re: Are Android's 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by rereboy » Sat Dec 27, 2014 9:00 pm

Son_Gohan wrote:
To simply say they are written off is one thing but to assert why is not something you can speak on behalf of the author for. In reference to the Shenlong Times interview for Daizenshuu 2, Toriyama merely establishes that his previous editor called him up to tell him how laughable #19 & #20 looked, prompting him to change their role in the story. He does not express writing them off from the context of power for that reason, that is your own speculation.

It would appear the conclusion you've chosen is that they are stronger than Freeza while trying to take a more neutral, liberated stance on it. If #19 and #20 are not the real androids Trunks prophesied then they are not required to hold any real characteristics of the actual ones. Attempting to just retain the idea that the initial androids should have the same supremacy over Freeza when you already know the foretold powers are not intended to be theirs means you're just being selective towards a favorable viewpoint.

If Freeza's name was brought up in the context of power 3 times since #17 & #18 first appear while the initial androids aren't mentioned at all then I don't need to pick and choose details in that regard, it's all that is being provided at that part in the story. The power of Freeza from 3 years prior is apparently more significant than the initial androids they encountered not too long earlier, and I am free to interpret it as an implication that he is stronger than them. I'm sorry if you take issue with that.
Dude... I just pointed out the problems I found within your arguments. I found them lacking and I explained why.

You apparently didn't understand that I only mentioned the reasons why the androids were written off because you used the fact that they were written off as an argument for your opinion that they are weaker than Freeza. That's the only reason why I even mentioned it. I never even suggested that the fact that they were once the main villains in the plans for the plot must mean that they are stronger than Freeza, I just explained that the reasons for why they were written off don't really imply that they must be weaker than Freeza or even suggest it. That was my point in explaining it, since you used it as an argument for them being weaker than Freeza. You didn't understand it then and apparently you still don't understand what my point was...

And I didn't state that #19 and #20 being weaker than Freeza is impossible, I just said that there's nothing to strongly suggest it.

And in response, you basically "accused" me of:
- "picking and choosing details";
- "speculation", presumably because I said that if #19 and #20 were the main villains, the trouble they would give to the gang, power-wise and whatnot, would be much different (which, honestly, is pretty obvious);
- having an agenda regarding why I disagreed with some of your arguments, by which you mean that I subtly think that they are stronger than Freeza, which is why you think I disagree with you, instead of me just finding your arguments lacking;
- taking a issue with you just because I dared to point out the problems I found in some of your arguments...

Whatever... Clearly, its impossible to even remotely suggest that some of what you said is not perfect without you going DEFCON 1, so its pointless to discuss anything with you. Bye...

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Re: Are Android's 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Sat Dec 27, 2014 10:02 pm

There was no reason to bring up the Initial Androids. They weren't the real Androids and Goku's battle with #19 ended rather abruptly. The remnants of the Freeza battle were far more important than anything #19 and #20 did. Who cares about those Androids, anyway? Super Saiyan Vegeta and Piccolo both handled them quite easily. They weren't around long enough to matter.

I think it's important to look at the context of Freeza's name being brought up:
Tenshinhan: “Th-this is the man who took down Freeza…And he was helpless before these androids…I’ll be frank…! No matter how strong Goku may be, he shouldn’t be that different from Trunks or Vegeta…”
Trunks defeating Freeza was still a big deal in the eyes of Tien. This isn't really a surprise, since Freeza's power was way beyond anything Tien ever sensed. Seeing how easily Trunks was taken down only further showed these Androids were in a different league entirely.
God: “Things turned out this way against the androids…Even for that ‘Trunks’ boy who came from the future and instantly obliterated Freeza and his father…and even for Vegeta, whose abilities are even greater than Trunks…”
Same here. Basically, as powerful as Trunks is, a more powerful Super Saiyan was useless against the Androids as well. Freeza and Cold were nothing more than an example to illustrate Trunks's power in Kami's quote.
Kuririn: “Goku, tell us—This thing’s even more terrible than Freeza. Are you scared by that? Or excited?”
Goku: “…Both…”
Could be a comparison of power. I think it's more along the lines of Krillin comparing Cell to Freeza in terms of their potential to be a serious problem for Goku. We already know Cell is way stronger than Freeza since Goku admitted he couldn't beat him. That'd be like a "no shit" moment to anyone there. And considering Goku beat the shit outta #19, I don't see why Krillin would even cite him or #20 to begin with, as there'd be no reason to.

One thing Freeza and the Initial Androids have in common is that they're pretty weak and irrelevant by this point of the story. Anyway, I don't think any of the Freeza quotes have anything to do with #19 and #20.
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Re: Are Android's 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sat Dec 27, 2014 10:22 pm

I doubt it. They considered sub-base saiyan-tier characters to be significant sources of energy, and were never able to accomplish jack without at least absorbing a ton of energy first. Post-absorption 19, at least, is definitely stronger than Freeza, but Vegeta still doesn't think he's strong enough to curb-stomp Trunks from the Mecha arc, so he can't be THAT strong even after absorbing Goku's power. Plus, Kami's comment kind of implies that Piccolo was weaker than Freeza when he beat the shit out of the stronger of the two.
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Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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