Are Androids 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

Son_Gohan
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1121
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:14 pm

Re: Are Android's 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by Son_Gohan » Sat Dec 27, 2014 10:38 pm

rereboy wrote: Dude... I just pointed out the problems I found within your arguments. I found them lacking and I explained why.

You apparently didn't understand that I only mentioned the reasons why the androids were written off because you used the fact that they were written off as an argument for your opinion that they are weaker than Freeza. That's the only reason why I even mentioned it. I never even suggested that the fact that they were once the main villains in the plans for the plot must mean that they are stronger than Freeza, I just explained that the reasons for why they were written off don't really imply that they must be weaker than Freeza or even suggest it. That was my point in explaining it, since you used it as an argument for them being weaker than Freeza. You didn't understand it then and apparently you still don't understand what my point was...

And I didn't state that #19 and #20 being weaker than Freeza is impossible, I just said that there's nothing to strongly suggest it.

And in response, you basically "accused" me of:
- "picking and choosing details";
- "speculation", presumably because I said that if #19 and #20 were the main villains, the trouble they would give to the gang, power-wise and whatnot, would be much different (which, honestly, is pretty obvious);
- having an agenda regarding why I disagreed with some of your arguments, by which you mean that I subtly think that they are stronger than Freeza, which is why you think I disagree with you, instead of me just finding your arguments lacking;
- taking a issue with you just because I dared to point out the problems I found in some of your arguments...

Whatever... Clearly, its impossible to even remotely suggest that some of what you said is not perfect without you going DEFCON 1, so its pointless to discuss anything with you. Bye...
Can you dispense with the neutrality act already?

If you want to argue about the subject that's fine with me, if you don't then don't. I made it clear in my posts that I wasn't asserting a fact, and these were my opinions. If you're not allowing me to have an opinion, then evidently you feel more strongly about the subject than you try to make your posts project, otherwise you would've just left my opinion alone. Asserting "there is nothing to suggest that because of those adjustments, #19 and #20 became weaker than Freeza in the revised plot" is a moot point. Can you not understand that people may see things differently? Stop pretending as if you're the author or that you personally took part in these conversations with Toriyama and his editor, your words are not objective fact exempt from contention.

I suggest you choose your words very carefully in the future if you want to avoid miscommunication. Especially if English is not your first language. It would seem like common sense, but you really shouldn't play games by providing arguments while not even feeling sure you want to take part in an argument on the subject. All that has done here is create very unnecessary drama.

User avatar
Super Saiyan Turlast x4
I Live Here
Posts: 3405
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2005 12:45 am
Location: Philadelphia
Contact:

Re: Are Android's 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Sat Dec 27, 2014 10:48 pm

I always saw Kami's quote as one that establishes the Super Saiyans as the strongest outside of the Androids. If Freeza is stronger than Piccolo, he'd be capable of decimating #20 in a more dominant fashion than both Piccolo and Super Saiyan Goku against #19. Goku wasn't at his best, but I doubt he was that much weaker. I'm actually fine with these Androids being weaker than 100% Freeza from the get go, but I think having them much weaker than 50% Freeza is a bit much.
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~

kuartus4
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 217
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2013 12:41 am

Re: Are Android's 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by kuartus4 » Sat Dec 27, 2014 11:01 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:I doubt it. They considered sub-base saiyan-tier characters to be significant sources of energy, and were never able to accomplish jack without at least absorbing a ton of energy first. Post-absorption 19, at least, is definitely stronger than Freeza, but Vegeta still doesn't think he's strong enough to curb-stomp Trunks from the Mecha arc, so he can't be THAT strong even after absorbing Goku's power. Plus, Kami's comment kind of implies that Piccolo was weaker than Freeza when he beat the shit out of the stronger of the two.
Chapter 343 (DBZ 149), P7.4
Vegeta: “I’ve realized by watching your faint movements up to now…That you guys don’t seem as terrible as the rumors made out.”

If we interpret the quote that way, would it not also indicate Gero(+piddling Yamcha's energy only), is also above mecha arc SSJ Trunks, since Vegets was talking in plural? And that would also make Piccolo stronger than Freeza as well.

User avatar
RandomGuy96
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8862
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:57 pm
Location: San Diego, California, USA

Re: Are Android's 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sat Dec 27, 2014 11:06 pm

kuartus4 wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:I doubt it. They considered sub-base saiyan-tier characters to be significant sources of energy, and were never able to accomplish jack without at least absorbing a ton of energy first. Post-absorption 19, at least, is definitely stronger than Freeza, but Vegeta still doesn't think he's strong enough to curb-stomp Trunks from the Mecha arc, so he can't be THAT strong even after absorbing Goku's power. Plus, Kami's comment kind of implies that Piccolo was weaker than Freeza when he beat the shit out of the stronger of the two.
Chapter 343 (DBZ 149), P7.4
Vegeta: “I’ve realized by watching your faint movements up to now…That you guys don’t seem as terrible as the rumors made out.”

If we interpret the quote that way, would it not also indicate Gero(+piddling Yamcha's energy only), is also above mecha arc SSJ Trunks, since Vegets was talking in plural? And that would also make Piccolo stronger than Freeza as well.
No, it just indicates that neither of them are as bad as Trunks said they'd be (i.e. strong enough to curb-stomp him). Since he has no way of judging Gero's strength, has seen 19 fight, and comments that "[he] thought [19] was only on that level" after they actually fight, I think it's pretty clear that Vegeta was just judging 19 there.

Also note how 19 was getting the shit beaten out of him by sick SS Goku. Then he absorbs an energy blast. Then he beats the shit out of sick SS Goku. But, apparently, that level isn't enough to beat the shit out of SS Trunks from the Mecha arc. Basically,

Initial 19 < Initial 20 < Energized 20 =< sick SS Goku < SS Trunks [Mecha Arc] < Energized 19

Since the difference between initial 20 and post-absorption 20 should be quite minimal, I don't think there's any chance he's stronger than SS Trunks.
Last edited by RandomGuy96 on Sat Dec 27, 2014 11:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

kuartus4
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 217
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2013 12:41 am

Re: Are Android's 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by kuartus4 » Sat Dec 27, 2014 11:15 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:
kuartus4 wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:I doubt it. They considered sub-base saiyan-tier characters to be significant sources of energy, and were never able to accomplish jack without at least absorbing a ton of energy first. Post-absorption 19, at least, is definitely stronger than Freeza, but Vegeta still doesn't think he's strong enough to curb-stomp Trunks from the Mecha arc, so he can't be THAT strong even after absorbing Goku's power. Plus, Kami's comment kind of implies that Piccolo was weaker than Freeza when he beat the shit out of the stronger of the two.
Chapter 343 (DBZ 149), P7.4
Vegeta: “I’ve realized by watching your faint movements up to now…That you guys don’t seem as terrible as the rumors made out.”

If we interpret the quote that way, would it not also indicate Gero(+piddling Yamcha's energy only), is also above mecha arc SSJ Trunks, since Vegets was talking in plural? And that would also make Piccolo stronger than Freeza as well.
No, it just indicates that neither of them are as bad as Trunks said they'd be (i.e. strong enough to curb-stomp him). Since he has no way of judging Gero's strength, has seen 19 fight, and comments that "[he] thought [19] was only on that level" after they actually fight, I think it's pretty clear that Vegeta was just judging 19 there.

Also note how 19 was getting the shit beaten out of him by sick SS Goku. Then he absorbs an energy blast. Then he beats the shit out of sick SS Goku. But, apparently, that level isn't enough to beat the shit out of SS Trunks from the Mecha arc. Basically,

Initial 19 < Initial 20 < sick SS Goku < SS Trunks [Mecha Arc]

Since the difference between initial 20 and post-absorption 20 should be quite minimal, I don't think there's any chance he's stronger than SS Trunks.
But he did have a way to judge Gero's strength, by the movements Gero used against suppressed Piccolo and the others when they tried to save Goku from 19. Vegeta said he saw everything so he would have seen that.

User avatar
RandomGuy96
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8862
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:57 pm
Location: San Diego, California, USA

Re: Are Android's 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sat Dec 27, 2014 11:17 pm

But he did have a way to judge Gero's strength, by the movements Gero used against suppressed Piccolo and the others when they tried to save Goku from 19. Vegeta said he saw everything so he would have seen that.
Gero didn't move. He just looked at Piccolo and fired eye beams.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

User avatar
Super Saiyan Turlast x4
I Live Here
Posts: 3405
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2005 12:45 am
Location: Philadelphia
Contact:

Re: Are Android's 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Sat Dec 27, 2014 11:21 pm

Actually, he did. When they went to help Goku, he showed off his speed. Tien even comments on it.

Edit: Just looked again. Tien comments on it after #20 dodges Piccolo's kick and eye lasers him.
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~

hyperbeing1
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 102
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2014 1:05 am

Re: Are Android's 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by hyperbeing1 » Sun Dec 28, 2014 1:45 am

personally i believe neither were stronger then a full powered Freeza. i honestly do not fully believe goku could get so much stronger from 3 years ago he was already hitting the borderline limit of his ability .anyway i believe that at best gero and 19 would have been slightly stronger then maybe 25% freeza but due to their android capabilities they were more enduring and had better durability. when 19 fought goku who was weakened by the heart virus 19 was for the most part being owned disagree with me if you will . but he had never laid a hit on goku , he was taking most of the blows , and the fight seemed majorly one sided. also gero even admitted that 19 was getting weaker and weaker throughout the fight and was getting worried. sadly i cannot get the actual quote if someone can do the honors for me please. anyway when goku fired the Kamehameha wave get owent along the lines of saying this
Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P14.6
Context: after No.19 absorbs Goku’s attack
No.20: “Alright! No.19’s maximum power rating has greatly increased from what it was before! In contrast, Son Goku’s energy has fallen remarkably…!”
after which 19 began beating and beating on a even more gravely weakened ssj goku who could barely move and was likely reduced to being only a little stronger then his base. again i wanan add that i while i believe goku had gotten stronger then he was right after the trunks saga i do not believe it was such a huge increase his base in his fight with Freeza could have been somewhere around 3 mill as said in the guidebook when at base and then 150 mill as ssj. i believe after his training goku could have been somewhere around maybe a little over 3 mill to around maybe 4 mill. in turn that would make him his power go from a little over 150 mill to 200 mill. that his a extreme huge gap.maybe even 5 mill which would make 250 mill. now according to piccolo's statement
Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P8.4-5, P9.
Piccolo: “Have you noticed too, Gohan?...”
Gohan: “Y-yes…”
Piccolo: “Son Goku is rushing the match for some reason…He’s already putting out close to his full power…But even so, what’s with that miserable condition of his?...”
Tenshinhan: “Th-that miserable condition…!? What are you talking about? Goku’s overwhelmingly pushing him back…!”
Piccolo: “It’s not that. As a Super Saiyan, Goku’s power should be more stupendous than this…”
piccolo is outright saying that goku's power is quite weak compared to his actual healthy full power. which is common sense but the point i am trying to make is piccolo and gohan both people who sparred with goku as both a ssj and base form can take a good guess on how strong he really is even more so gohan considering he actually seen gokus fight with frieza and sensed goku's ssj form are saying that goku is nowhere near as powerful then he is when he healthy. i know i am repeating but i am trying to get point across . i believe heart weakened ssj goku is like 50% of full powered goku at least . due to the whole using 50% of power thing being famous. which can transfer to to base form goku as well. now lets use goku in namek saga for example half his power would be 1,500,000 in base and his ssj form would be 75mill . now obviously goku is gonna be a bit stronger then he was in the fight with freeza but i highly doubt he would be 10 times stronger then he was in his fight with Freeza i at most believe he is only twice as strong my little opinion. anyway i am gonna do calculations for a hypothetical android saga goku in both healthy and sick forms using healthy namek goku as a starting point.
base: 3 mill(healthy) 1.5 mill(virus). ssj 150mill(healthy), 75mill(virus).
base; 4 mill(healthy) 2 mill(virus). ssj: 200 mill(healthy), 100mill (virus)
base: 5 mill(healthy) 2.5mill(virus). ssj 250 mill( healthy),125 mill (virus)
base: 6 mill(healthy) 3mill (virus). ssj: 300 mill (healthy),150 mill(virus)
sorry if there are mistakes in them if you believe i made a mistake in my math pls let me know. anyway going on with my calculations . can again guarantee that initial 19 is much much weaker ssj goku who has a virus which would be around 75mill> X =/<150mill. again i do wanna add that it was simply his durability and endurance that allowed him to hold his own otherwise i am certain he would have died long ago. i would even say he would be half or less of goku's weakened ssj form due to how outmatched he was. i guarantee initial or aborbed he is decently weaker then Freeza who was atleast able to land some good blows against goku in namek (going by manga btw).
Gero would be a bit stronger then 19 but weaker weaker then absorbed 19 but greater when he absorbed some of piccolo's energy.
now i wanna add a few things gero was mostly going by the sayain saga versions of the characters and cautiously decided to make himself superior to them. i am assuming he is counting gokus kaio ken forms . which would him superior to goku's kaio ken five state which is 40 thousand. and maybe superior to vegeta's ozaru form which is 180 000.using this he must have least been around 380 000 to feel comfortable in order to fight against goku and the rest.as he believed they were hitting their peek soon which funnily he was kinda right. when he absorbed yamchas energy he may have noticed that even though yamcha is much stronger then before he is likely much less then goku's kaio ken states or vegeta's ozaru form and may have had a lot of data to prove that yamcha is generally inferior to goku. when he saw goku's ssj state he went along the lines of saying this
Chapter 340 (DBZ 146), P13.4-5, P14.1
No.20: “I see…You seem to have achieved a truly considerable power-up. It’s a strange technique…This greatly surpasses our calculated figures…”
No.20: “However, this isn’t anything great enough to give us reason to fear. It’s still within a level which even No.19 is more than capable of defeating, and naturally that goes for myself as well…”

notice how he for a moment breaks his composer and tried to act like this is nothing even vegeta would acknowledge this later.
during the fight with 19 (yes i finally found the quote) gero says this.
Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P6.6
No.20: “…Kuh…! Th-this power up greatly exceeds my estimated data…Th-this is bad. Like this, No.19 will run out of energy before he steals any power…”
he keeps this to himself for the most part but here he acknowledges that he was counting on 19 at least being able to use take his energy. i mean not such a bad idea considering all these characters are more often to shoot a energy attack then not. he essentially made himself and 19 the ultimate take energy and return it symbol.
Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P14.6
Context: after No.19 absorbs Goku’s attack
No.20: “Alright! No.19’s maximum power rating has greatly increased from what it was before! In contrast, Son Goku’s energy has fallen remarkably…!”
after 19 takes goku's energy his tone changes it becomes highly hopeful and exited. again wanna acknowledge goku is nowhere his full power and he was still shocked greatly by his power. and since goku decided to go ssj instead of fight in base it can either be due to caution or simply him knowing his heart virus was coming and trying to rush the fight. anyway in the end i place 19 and gero at best stronger then goku's base but much weaker then his weakened heart virus state.
(sorry if this seems rushed and disorganized i am still getting used to posting this much calculations and long posts i will try to make it more more clear next time if anyone can understnad my idea and can phrase it much better then i pls do so..)

User avatar
Jabberwock xeno
Not-So-Newbie
Posts: 67
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2009 7:31 pm

Re: Are Androids 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by Jabberwock xeno » Tue Jan 27, 2015 5:04 am

I don't think so, at least not before absorbing energy, since we see piccolo having little trouble with #20/Gero, and I don't think it's feasible that piccolo got to final form or 100% freeza levels during training.

Or was gero already weakened by that point? Iforget.

User avatar
freezamite
Banned
Posts: 392
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2009 7:57 pm

Re: Are Androids 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by freezamite » Tue Jan 27, 2015 6:29 am

MarCas92 wrote:We know for a fact 17 and 18 are stronger than Freeza. But what about 19 and 20? I mean, Piccolo was a little stronger than 2nd form Freeza and about 4 years later he is more than a match for 20. If he is stronger than Freeza, that's a pretty unbelievable leap.
Exactly, "you" know for a fact that 17 and 18 are stronger than Freezer, but it seems that even Toriyama didn't know that, because in the manga Freezer > 17 and 18 and of course 19 and 20 as well (and 16, but since he's stronger than 17 and 18 it's not worth mentioning when comparing Freezer with 19 and 20).

User avatar
Hitiro
I Live Here
Posts: 3433
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:43 pm

Re: Are Androids 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by Hitiro » Tue Jan 27, 2015 6:44 am

freezamite wrote:Exactly, "you" know for a fact that 17 and 18 are stronger than Freezer, but it seems that even Toriyama didn't know that, because in the manga Freezer > 17 and 18 and of course 19 and 20 as well (and 16, but since he's stronger than 17 and 18 it's not worth mentioning when comparing Freezer with 19 and 20).
In the manga it is never implied that Freeza is stronger than 17 or 18. In fact, Goku outright tells us he is no match for them. But Goku can beat Freeza?
Strength Checker wrote:Chapter: 366 (DBZ 172), P3.5
Context: after Goku recovers from his illness
Goku: “The way I am now, I definitely can’t beat the androids or this ‘Cell’ guy.”
So we have:

SSJ Goku > Freeza
16, 17 and 18 > SSJ Goku

And you believe Freeza > 16, 17 and 18?

Even making the assumption that Freeza never displayed his full power you can't really say that Goku couldn't beat Freeza at full power because it is never suggested he couldn't. They never even hint that they couldn't beat a full power Freeza. I mean you can be of the opinion that Freeza is stronger than 17 and 18 if you so choose. But the manga definitely doesn't state it as a fact and heavily implies the opposite. However. It is entirely possible for 19 and 20 to be weaker than Freeza because at least it would make sense considering Piccolo could take them on unless he got over 50x stronger in the 3 years of training.

Furthermore, if this isn't enough. For SSJ Trunks to beat a suppressed Freeza he would have to exceed his suppressed strength by at least 1.5x to 2x for him to totally destroy Freeza the way he did. How much are you assuming he is suppressed by? 50%? Or is Freeza at 70%? Because 50% would put SSJ Trunks at 75% of Freeza's full power. And 70% would put SSJ Trunks at 105% Freeza's full power. Further to that the Androids are stronger than SSJ Trunks to the margin they can swiftly beat two SSJ without any trouble. So they would 1.5x to 2x stronger than the SSJ's. Putting them at either 112.5% Freeza's full power if Freeza was at 50% or at 157% if Freeza was at 70%
Last edited by Hitiro on Tue Jan 27, 2015 7:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
freezamite
Banned
Posts: 392
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2009 7:57 pm

Re: Are Androids 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by freezamite » Tue Jan 27, 2015 7:09 am

Hitiro wrote:
freezamite wrote:Exactly, "you" know for a fact that 17 and 18 are stronger than Freezer, but it seems that even Toriyama didn't know that, because in the manga Freezer > 17 and 18 and of course 19 and 20 as well (and 16, but since he's stronger than 17 and 18 it's not worth mentioning when comparing Freezer with 19 and 20).
In the manga it is never implied that Freeza is stronger than 17 or 18. In fact, Goku outright tells us he is no match for them. But Goku can beat Freeza?
Strength Checker wrote:Chapter: 366 (DBZ 172), P3.5
Context: after Goku recovers from his illness
Goku: “The way I am now, I definitely can’t beat the androids or this ‘Cell’ guy.”
So we have:

SSJ Goku > Freeza
16, 17 and 18 > SSJ Goku

And you believe Freeza > 16, 17 and 18?

Even making the assumption that Freeza never displayed his full power you can't really say that Goku couldn't beat Freeza at full power because it is never suggested he couldn't. They never even hint that they couldn't beat a full power Freeza. I mean you can be of the opinion that Freeza is stronger than 17 and 18 if you so choose. But the manga definitely doesn't state it as a fact and heavily implies the opposite. However. It is entirely possible for 19 and 20 to be weaker than Freeza because at least it would make sense considering Piccolo could take them on unless he got over 50x stronger in the 3 years of training.
Goku never suggested he couldn't beat Freezer? You mean that desperate Goku that was praying for the "I'm only using 50% of my power" to be a lie? Yes, as you say "the manga doesn't state clearly that Freezer is above the androids" but as you know from the times we've discussed there are also a ton of evidences that point towards that direction so it's more a matter of "who chooses to believe what" (although I of course consider that my stance is the one that respects more the manga but of course you will think the same of your own stance) than the "we know for a fact that" the author of this thread used in the OP.

All in all, going with the data we know:
20 > 19.
20 > Vegeta - Energy absorbed by 19 > 19 (beaten) + Energy absorbed from Vegeta.

Now there are two implications that complicate things a bit further:
19 loses energy, so we don't know how many energy he lost before he started absorbing Vegeta's.
19 has a limit (stated after he absorbs Goku's KameHame) so his strength can't increase past that concrete point (so we can't assume that Vegeta - 2x Energy absorbed by 19 > 19).

But even considering that, Piccolo would have to be pretty close to SSJ Vegeta since he trashed 20 like it wasn't even a thread to him, and the energy 19 could have absorbed can't be too big considering how "well" he tanked Vegeta's attacks (yes, Vegeta was playing with him, but I don't think the difference between 19 and SSJ Vegeta to be bigger than the one between Dodoria and Vegeta's 24.000 units of power).

Of course Piccolo having a 50x increase in strength (in fact, if we go with the daizenshuu nonsense, then Piccolo would've had to multiply his strength by 150 at the very least) is wouldn't be my preferred explanation when it comes to explain those facts which further reinforces the fact that SSJ Vegeta isn't at around 300 million like a lot of people seem to believe but more in the lines of 3 millions of units or so.

User avatar
Hitiro
I Live Here
Posts: 3433
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:43 pm

Re: Are Androids 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by Hitiro » Tue Jan 27, 2015 8:44 am

freezamite wrote:Goku never suggested he couldn't beat Freezer? You mean that desperate Goku that was praying for the "I'm only using 50% of my power" to be a lie? Yes, as you say "the manga doesn't state clearly that Freezer is above the androids" but as you know from the times we've discussed there are also a ton of evidences that point towards that direction so it's more a matter of "who chooses to believe what" (although I of course consider that my stance is the one that respects more the manga but of course you will think the same of your own stance) than the "we know for a fact that" the author of this thread used in the OP.
You're using Goku pre-SSJ as a standing point to say that Goku suggested he couldn't beat Freeza? You realise I was talking about after Goku got SSJ. Right? After Goku got SSJ it was never suggested that he couldn't beat Freeza. So Base Saiyan's excluded your point is moot on that. And I don't believe there is tons of evidence that point towards the Androids being inferior to Freeza. All your "evidence" is based on subjective things. So were can't really use it as evidence. I could say that Oozaru gives a Saiyan 10x his base power even if that Saiyan is weakened. Nothing contradicts my opinion in the manga. But I can't use that as evidence. Your evidence for things like Freeza being stronger than the Androids is that Freeza never showed his true power at any point during the manga. But that is purely subjective so it doesn't work as evidence. Oozaru gives a 10x boost to the Saiyan. That is a fact. And it can be used as evidence.
freezamite wrote:All in all, going with the data we know:
20 > 19.
20 > Vegeta - Energy absorbed by 19 > 19 (beaten) + Energy absorbed from Vegeta.

Now there are two implications that complicate things a bit further:
19 loses energy, so we don't know how many energy he lost before he started absorbing Vegeta's.
19 has a limit (stated after he absorbs Goku's KameHame) so his strength can't increase past that concrete point (so we can't assume that Vegeta - 2x Energy absorbed by 19 > 19).
You're stating 19 has a limit as if it's fact. Where does it say that he can't increase his power further? The only comments I see on #19's absorption is that he has increased his power further. I don't see where it says he has reached his maximum.
Strength Checker wrote:Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P14.6
Context: after No.19 absorbs Goku’s attack
No.20: “Alright! No.19’s maximum power rating has greatly increased from what it was before! In contrast, Son Goku’s energy has fallen remarkably…!”

Chapter 343 (DBZ 149), P7.1
Context: when No.19 asks to fight Vegeta
No.20: “You’re so greedy…Even though you sucked so much energy out of Son Goku, and have raised your absolute power…”
^These are the only two statements in which his absorption was commented on. And neither imply a limit. In fact, these lines imply that #19 has increased his power limit.
freezamite wrote:But even considering that, Piccolo would have to be pretty close to SSJ Vegeta since he trashed 20 like it wasn't even a thread to him, and the energy 19 could have absorbed can't be too big considering how "well" he tanked Vegeta's attacks (yes, Vegeta was playing with him, but I don't think the difference between 19 and SSJ Vegeta to be bigger than the one between Dodoria and Vegeta's 24.000 units of power).
Why does Piccolo need to be pretty close to SSJ Vegeta to trash #20? It honestly depends on how large a boost SSJ gives the Saiyan's. If you think it is only 10x then Piccolo could still be weaker than Vegeta by a margin of 2x and still destroy the Androids. For all we know SSJ Vegeta is 5x stronger than the base Androids and Piccolo is 2x stronger meaning SSJ Vegeta is still 2.5x stronger than Piccolo.
freezamite wrote:Of course Piccolo having a 50x increase in strength (in fact, if we go with the daizenshuu nonsense, then Piccolo would've had to multiply his strength by 150 at the very least) is wouldn't be my preferred explanation when it comes to explain those facts which further reinforces the fact that SSJ Vegeta isn't at around 300 million like a lot of people seem to believe but more in the lines of 3 millions of units or so.
Why does Piccolo need to multiply his strength by 150? Piccolo had already been training for a year before Goku arrived back on Earth. Are you saying he couldn't have gotten stronger in that year? Then again, if we assume that Piccolo got 3x stronger each year he would be at 27x stronger than his post 3 year training self which would be on the level of half a SSJ if we go by the Daizenshuu. The characters have received much larger gains in a year than that. So it is plausible I guess.

User avatar
freezamite
Banned
Posts: 392
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2009 7:57 pm

Re: Are Androids 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by freezamite » Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:19 am

Hitiro wrote:
freezamite wrote:Goku never suggested he couldn't beat Freezer? You mean that desperate Goku that was praying for the "I'm only using 50% of my power" to be a lie? Yes, as you say "the manga doesn't state clearly that Freezer is above the androids" but as you know from the times we've discussed there are also a ton of evidences that point towards that direction so it's more a matter of "who chooses to believe what" (although I of course consider that my stance is the one that respects more the manga but of course you will think the same of your own stance) than the "we know for a fact that" the author of this thread used in the OP.
You're using Goku pre-SSJ as a standing point to say that Goku suggested he couldn't beat Freeza? You realise I was talking about after Goku got SSJ. Right? After Goku got SSJ it was never suggested that he couldn't beat Freeza.
Maybe because Freezer was no longer a thread?
But when Krilin explains who's Cell to Goku, he says this:
"Chapter: 366 (DBZ 172), P4.5-6
Kuririn: “Goku, tell us—This thing’s even more terrible than Freeza. Are you scared by that? Or excited?”
Goku: “…Both…”"

Which also implies that Freezer > any android seen until then (otherwise that statement wouldn't make any sense coming from krilin).

Hitiro wrote:
freezamite wrote:All in all, going with the data we know:
20 > 19.
20 > Vegeta - Energy absorbed by 19 > 19 (beaten) + Energy absorbed from Vegeta.

Now there are two implications that complicate things a bit further:
19 loses energy, so we don't know how many energy he lost before he started absorbing Vegeta's.
19 has a limit (stated after he absorbs Goku's KameHame) so his strength can't increase past that concrete point (so we can't assume that Vegeta - 2x Energy absorbed by 19 > 19).
You're stating 19 has a limit as if it's fact. Where does it say that he can't increase his power further? The only comments I see on #19's absorption is that he has increased his power further. I don't see where it says he has reached his maximum.
Strength Checker wrote:Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P14.6
Context: after No.19 absorbs Goku’s attack
No.20: “Alright! No.19’s maximum power rating has greatly increased from what it was before! In contrast, Son Goku’s energy has fallen remarkably…!”

Chapter 343 (DBZ 149), P7.1
Context: when No.19 asks to fight Vegeta
No.20: “You’re so greedy…Even though you sucked so much energy out of Son Goku, and have raised your absolute power…”
^These are the only two statements in which his absorption was commented on. And neither imply a limit. In fact, these lines imply that #19 has increased his power limit.
True, in my version of the manga it says "#19 has reached his maximum power" but since we are going by Herm's translation (that seems to be more accurate than the one I have) I give this one to you.
But then, it's even easier for us to nail the difference in power between Vegeta and Piccolo as something small.

If #19 doesn't have a limit or it's limit wasn't reached after absorbing Goku's Kamehame we have that:
Vegeta - stolen energy > #19 - lost energy + stolen energy.
Vegeta - 2x stolen energy > #19 - lost energy during fight against Vegeta.

Considering that #19 tanked Vegeta's attacks pretty well (considering the fight was one sided in Vegeta's favour) even if Vegeta wasn't hitting with all his strength, stolen energy can't be higher than 15-20% of Vegeta's power.
And that was enough to put Vegeta below #20 in terms of power (this is why Vegeta doesn't attack him until he eats the senzu bean).
Hitiro wrote:
freezamite wrote:But even considering that, Piccolo would have to be pretty close to SSJ Vegeta since he trashed 20 like it wasn't even a thread to him, and the energy 19 could have absorbed can't be too big considering how "well" he tanked Vegeta's attacks (yes, Vegeta was playing with him, but I don't think the difference between 19 and SSJ Vegeta to be bigger than the one between Dodoria and Vegeta's 24.000 units of power).
Why does Piccolo need to be pretty close to SSJ Vegeta to trash #20? It honestly depends on how large a boost SSJ gives the Saiyan's. If you think it is only 10x then Piccolo could still be weaker than Vegeta by a margin of 2x and still destroy the Androids. For all we know SSJ Vegeta is 5x stronger than the base Androids and Piccolo is 2x stronger meaning SSJ Vegeta is still 2.5x stronger than Piccolo.
I don't think SSJ gives a concrete boost because the boost you get from turning into a SSJ depends on a lot of factors (including energy control which Vegeta lacks). We know that Goku had a 10x power up between the rage boost and the SSJ if we go by what Toriyama said, but that doesn't means SSJ equals a 10x power boost. In fact, I think it was more like a 2-3x boost over a sayan's base power (once it reached it's limits) which in the case of Goku translates to a 10x because he still hadn't reached the limit of his base state prior to the rage boost.

But discussing about abstract multipliers we can only theorize about is meaningless when we have solid facts directly from the manga.
SSJ Vegeta < #20 after killing #19.
And we know Piccolo > #20 for a fact as well.
Hitiro wrote:
freezamite wrote:Of course Piccolo having a 50x increase in strength (in fact, if we go with the daizenshuu nonsense, then Piccolo would've had to multiply his strength by 150 at the very least) is wouldn't be my preferred explanation when it comes to explain those facts which further reinforces the fact that SSJ Vegeta isn't at around 300 million like a lot of people seem to believe but more in the lines of 3 millions of units or so.
Why does Piccolo need to multiply his strength by 150? Piccolo had already been training for a year before Goku arrived back on Earth. Are you saying he couldn't have gotten stronger in that year? Then again, if we assume that Piccolo got 3x stronger each year he would be at 27x stronger than his post 3 year training self which would be on the level of half a SSJ if we go by the Daizenshuu. The characters have received much larger gains in a year than that. So it is plausible I guess.
He could have gotten stronger but without the motivation to defeat a stronger enemy I doubt his power increased that much, let alone 3x in the same time the rest of the Z-fighters couldn't get themselves any stronger or at least substantially stronger.
It's possible, but Piccolo has to be much higher than 50% of a SSJ to defeat #20. In fact, I think that Piccolo already was at the same level of SSJ Trunks or Namek/Yadrat Goku SSJ at that time.

User avatar
TobyS
I Live Here
Posts: 2452
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:11 pm

Re: Are Androids 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by TobyS » Tue Jan 27, 2015 11:44 am

It's not unrealistic to assume they would have used future Trunks as a measuring stick and wanted to be stronger than that to combat what they thought would be a threat to him.

Goku and Vegeta made it, maybe Piccolo too. The humans wouldn't have done but they obviously got strong enough to think they could help, my fanon theory is they caught up to Goku's base at gaps similar to the Raditz saga, I also subscribe to the "everyone is kind of doing Kaio-ken" theory from Piccolos fight with 20.

I think barring the exception of Pure Boo, which was done as a plot device to make him a foe Goku could beat, without Goku breaking all established facts and becoming stronger then his son, it's pretty safe to go occams razor on dragonball and assume this makes each villain stronger than the previous ones.

This does create a contradiction with Piccolo though, it seems unlikely he would surpass freeza this early/pre-kami

We can get round this by looking at the "post absorption">"pre absorption" thing.

The trouble with 20 is he didn't absorb much, Yamcha, a Vegeta attack (designed to perhaps only destroy rocks/flush out 20?) and a tiny amount of Piccolo's chi.

What we know:

(Hypothetical healthy Goku) =>= SS Vegeta > 19 Post > Sick Goku > 19 Pre

we know that Piccolo > 20 post

we know that sick goku > Yardat Goku > 'Yardat' Trunks (Ten saw both Goku's+Trunks and is impressed Piccolo notes RECENT Goku should be EVEN greater)

we know 'Android' Trunk > 'Yardat' Trunks (but not by how much)

We don't know where the androids compare to Freeze pre or post. Nor how Piccolo compares to Trunks (past or present)

There's too much wriggle room.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

rereboy
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 10262
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:42 pm

Re: Are Android's 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by rereboy » Tue Jan 27, 2015 12:40 pm

Son_Gohan wrote:
Can you dispense with the neutrality act already?

If you want to argue about the subject that's fine with me, if you don't then don't. I made it clear in my posts that I wasn't asserting a fact, and these were my opinions. If you're not allowing me to have an opinion, then evidently you feel more strongly about the subject than you try to make your posts project, otherwise you would've just left my opinion alone. Asserting "there is nothing to suggest that because of those adjustments, #19 and #20 became weaker than Freeza in the revised plot" is a moot point. Can you not understand that people may see things differently? Stop pretending as if you're the author or that you personally took part in these conversations with Toriyama and his editor, your words are not objective fact exempt from contention.

I suggest you choose your words very carefully in the future if you want to avoid miscommunication. Especially if English is not your first language. It would seem like common sense, but you really shouldn't play games by providing arguments while not even feeling sure you want to take part in an argument on the subject. All that has done here is create very unnecessary drama.
I don't have any problems with you having an opinion. You can have whatever opinion you like. I just engaged you in a discussion and disagreed with some of your arguments and stated why I disagreed with them. I wanted to offer my opinion on the arguments that you used and why I disagreed with it, and so I did. You are free to disagree with me and with my opinion regarding your arguments all you like.

You see, it is possible for a person to not have made his own conclusion regarding something and still disagree with someone's else argument for a particular conclusion. For example, I might not be sure which movie is the best between two particular movies, but I can still disagree with your argument for why one of them is the best of the two.

The same way, I might not have a definite conclusion of my own for the subject of this topic, but I may disagree with someone else's argument for a particular conclusion.

That's what I did regarding some of your arguments. I just disagreed with them and stated why.

The only problem is that when I did that, you misunderstood my point and stated that I was picking and choosing stuff to form a conclusion. And when I further explained my point and stated that I didn't even had a conclusion on the subject and that I just disagreed with some of the arguments you used, you accused me of a bunch of other stuff that I already listed.

And on this last post you go on to accuse me of having a "neutrality act", of "pretending to be the author" or "pretending to have conversations with Toriyama", and "playing games". And you also manage to imply that I might have a deficient use of the english language which is the real cause for misunderstandings (even though I hardly ever have misunderstandings because of my english in the forum or anywhere else).

Well, I suggest you actually look at yourself and at others carefully before accusing people of everything you can think of. Me disagreeing with your arguments and stating why, just means that I disagree with your arguments, and not what that long list of things you accused me of in your posts.

User avatar
Hitiro
I Live Here
Posts: 3433
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:43 pm

Re: Are Androids 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by Hitiro » Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:13 pm

freezamite wrote: Maybe because Freezer was no longer a thread?
But when Krilin explains who's Cell to Goku, he says this:
"Chapter: 366 (DBZ 172), P4.5-6
Kuririn: “Goku, tell us—This thing’s even more terrible than Freeza. Are you scared by that? Or excited?”
Goku: “…Both…”"

Which also implies that Freezer > any android seen until then (otherwise that statement wouldn't make any sense coming from krilin).
This statement would make sense seeing as Goku never had a chance to fight Androids 17 or 18. So Kuririn couldn't compare Cell to something Goku had never fought. It's like saying to the Kaioshin "Boo is even more terrible than Cell, what do you think Kaioshin?" And the Kaioshin would literally be like "I have no basis to compare a person I have never had the chance to fight. So how can I comment on that?" It doesn't necessarily imply that 17 and 18 weaker than Freeza just because Kuririn used Freeza as a reference point. The only two reference points Kuririn could have possibly used are Freeza and #19 because these are the only two he has thought with those sorts of levels. And seeing as how Goku was beating down #19 even with the heart virus which lowered his battle power as confirmed by Piccolo and that we're both under the impression that #19 and #20 weren't above Freeza's power. Logically Kuririn is going to use someone Goku has battled and gave him a hard time.
freezamite wrote:True, in my version of the manga it says "#19 has reached his maximum power" but since we are going by Herm's translation (that seems to be more accurate than the one I have) I give this one to you.
But then, it's even easier for us to nail the difference in power between Vegeta and Piccolo as something small.

If #19 doesn't have a limit or it's limit wasn't reached after absorbing Goku's Kamehame we have that:
Vegeta - stolen energy > #19 - lost energy + stolen energy.
Vegeta - 2x stolen energy > #19 - lost energy during fight against Vegeta.

Considering that #19 tanked Vegeta's attacks pretty well (considering the fight was one sided in Vegeta's favour) even if Vegeta wasn't hitting with all his strength, stolen energy can't be higher than 15-20% of Vegeta's power.
And that was enough to put Vegeta below #20 in terms of power (this is why Vegeta doesn't attack him until he eats the senzu bean).
I'm not sure how it's easy to nail the difference in power between Vegeta and Piccolo. We don't know where #19 was in power pre-Goku fight. We also don't know how much energy Goku gave him. For all we know Vegeta could still be vastly superior to 19 and Vegeta let him absorb 40% of his energy before he finished off #19 with the rest of his remaining energy. All we can do in this scenario is make a lot of assumptions. Also, what do you mean by 2x stolen energy? I don't recall Vegeta's energy being stolen by #19 more than the one time.
freezamite wrote:I don't think SSJ gives a concrete boost because the boost you get from turning into a SSJ depends on a lot of factors (including energy control which Vegeta lacks). We know that Goku had a 10x power up between the rage boost and the SSJ if we go by what Toriyama said, but that doesn't means SSJ equals a 10x power boost. In fact, I think it was more like a 2-3x boost over a sayan's base power (once it reached it's limits) which in the case of Goku translates to a 10x because he still hadn't reached the limit of his base state prior to the rage boost.
What Toriyama said was that he drew Goku with 10x as much power as he had at the time. Seeing as Goku at the time was using his Kaioken x10 almost religiously up to trying to defeat Freeza with a Kaioken x20. Then we could go and say that Toriyama drew Goku 10x stronger then his Kaioken x10. In your last post you put Vegeta at 300,000 and his SSJ took him to 3 million? But then Piccolo would be stronger than Vegeta. Right? Because Piccolo was already over a million to fight against Freeza's second form. And in the 3 years of training are you saying that Piccolo barely increased his battle power? When Piccolo is probably the character with the biggest gains in story apart from maybe Goku and Gohan?

But discussing about abstract multipliers we can only theorize about is meaningless when we have solid facts directly from the manga.
SSJ Vegeta < #20 after killing #19.
And we know Piccolo > #20 for a fact as well.
freezamite wrote:He could have gotten stronger but without the motivation to defeat a stronger enemy I doubt his power increased that much, let alone 3x in the same time the rest of the Z-fighters couldn't get themselves any stronger or at least substantially stronger.
It's possible, but Piccolo has to be much higher than 50% of a SSJ to defeat #20. In fact, I think that Piccolo already was at the same level of SSJ Trunks or Namek/Yadrat Goku SSJ at that time.
Piccolo is one of the characters with the most significant gains in the manga so 3x should be nothing for him. I honestly don't see why Piccolo needed to be higher than 50% of a SSJ to defeat #20 though. The Saiyan's got stronger too and we don't know how much of a difference there was between the Androids and the SSJ's. Goku was thoroughly beating down 19 even with a heart disease so Goku could be several times stronger than #19 at full power. And Vegeta toyed with #19 too. Nothing can really be said about how much stronger they are because all of this is supposition.

SSJ2FutureGohan
I Live Here
Posts: 2496
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2014 1:29 am

Re: Are Androids 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:26 pm

I think they're stronger than Freeza. No reason for the next arc villain to be weaker than the previous one.

User avatar
Kamiccolo9
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 10352
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:32 pm
Location: Regensburg, Germany

Re: Are Androids 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:32 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:I think they're stronger than Freeza. No reason for the next arc villain to be weaker than the previous one.
Yakon and Pui-Pui? King Cold?
Champion of the 1st Kanzenshuu Short Story Tenkaichi Budokai
Kamiccolo9's Kompendium of Short Stories
Cipher wrote:If Vegeta does not kill Gohan, I will stop illegally streaming the series.
Malik_DBNA wrote:
Scarz wrote:Malik, stop. People are asking me for lewd art of possessed Bra (with Vegeta).
"Achievement Unlocked: Rule 34"

SSJ2FutureGohan
I Live Here
Posts: 2496
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2014 1:29 am

Re: Are Androids 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:47 pm

Major villains*, my bad.

Locked