Are Androids 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

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kuartus4
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Re: Are Androids 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by kuartus4 » Tue Jan 27, 2015 6:09 pm

Holding back and suppressing isn't the same thing. Raditz was clearly established to not be able to alter his battle power number, yet he clearly held back his punches. He said as much.

Anyway, Trunks comments how Goku is more amazing than the rumors. I don't see how he could make that determination if Goku is suppressed.

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Re: Are Androids 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Tue Jan 27, 2015 6:13 pm

kuartus4 wrote:Holding back and suppressing isn't the same thing. Raditz was clearly established to not be able to alter his battle power number, yet he clearly held back his punches. He said as much.

Anyway, Trunks comments how Goku is more amazing than the rumors. I don't see how he could make that determination if Goku is suppressed.
No, he's established to be surprised that Goku and Piccolo can.

Trunks didn't know how strong Goku was. Why would he go all-out, risking cutting Goku in half?

I will grant you, the point about Raditz is an actual point, unlike the stuff that has previously been brought up. That's how you debate something.
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Re: Are Androids 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by Hitiro » Tue Jan 27, 2015 6:18 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Because effort and ki output don't have to correlate.

Why can't Gohan suppress his punch without suppressing his ki output?
Effort and Ki output do correlate though. Because originally Vegeta couldn't suppress his battle power but while he isn't fighting his battle power is lower than his fighting battle power. When Vegeta gets serious then characters can sense it. In opposition to that Kuririn and Gohan also have keep their effort reduced to jumping and even restrain that by so much when travelling around Namek as their battle powers would rise and alert Freeza and his gang. They would be able to get about much easier if they could use their full effort and could suppress their Ki to a point they wouldn't be sensed. But what we can see is that you can suppress your Ki much lower than your physical efforts. But I would point out that all of the Z-senshi have brought their physical strength to the maximum and as Akira Toriyama has said to further get stronger they must increase their Ki. Proportionally, if your physical strength is amplified by your Ki then suppressing your Ki leads to your physical strength being amplified less. So you can suppress your Ki and thus lower your strength and also use your strength which will force you to raise your Ki. But all the Z fighters if they were suppressed to a battle power of 5 would outperform the humans because of their physical strength.

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Re: Are Androids 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Tue Jan 27, 2015 6:32 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong again. Reacoom can't suppress, yet he said he hit Kuririn too hard, meaning he accidentally put too much force into his hit. Which would mean he was trying to hold back.

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Re: Are Androids 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Tue Jan 27, 2015 6:34 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong again. Reacoom can't suppress, yet he said he hit Kuririn too hard, meaning he accidentally put too much force into his hit. Which would mean he was trying to hold back.
What says Recoome can't surpress?
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Re: Are Androids 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Tue Jan 27, 2015 6:35 pm

Jheese believes Goku is 5,000. Ginyu calls him a fool for thinking that's his real battle power and tells him there are people that can alter their power levels. Do you really think Jheese wouldn't know about that if Reacoom could suppress?

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Re: Are Androids 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Tue Jan 27, 2015 6:36 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Jheese believes Goku is 5,000. Ginyu calls him a fool for thinking that's his real battle power and tells him there are people that can alter their power levels. Do you really think Jheese wouldn't know about that if Reacoom could suppress?
What Recoome can or can't do is irrelevant there. The main point in this is that Jeice is an idiot. Recoome doesn't even enter into the equation.
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Re: Are Androids 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by RandomGuy96 » Tue Jan 27, 2015 6:37 pm

Raditz can't change his battle power ("suppress"), but still said he would put less into his attacks than he could, and move slower than a full sprint.

Chapter: 199 (DBZ 5), P14.1-5
Raditz: “But it’s just a matter of time before you die…I’ll be slowly making my attacks stronger.”
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dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Are Androids 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Tue Jan 27, 2015 6:39 pm

There's also the Ginyu's shocked reaction at Gohan and Kuririn powering up, and Butta calls beings who can alter their battle power very rare. Why is he so shocked when his comrade has been able to do it the whole time?

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Re: Are Androids 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Tue Jan 27, 2015 6:41 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:There's also the Ginyu's shocked reaction at Gohan and Kuririn powering up, and Butta calls beings who can alter their battle power very rare. Why is he so shocked when his comrade has been able to do it the whole time?
Because knowing someone who may be capable of doing something doesn't mean that something isn't very rare?
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Re: Are Androids 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Tue Jan 27, 2015 6:46 pm

"Beings who can change their battle power without transforming are quite rare"
Just looking at the shocked expressions, it makes it sound like they can't do it

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Re: Are Androids 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Tue Jan 27, 2015 6:48 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:"Beings who can change their battle power without transforming are quite rare"
Just looking at the shocked expressions, it makes it sound like they can't do it
No, it doesn't. A person can be shocked at someone's ability to do something, despite knowing someone else capable of doing the same thing.
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Re: Are Androids 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Tue Jan 27, 2015 6:52 pm

I dunno, the way they say it and the context of the scene coupled with the fact that we never see any of the Ginyus (besides Ginyu) power makes it seems like it to me, but I guess that's my interpretation.

there's still this:
RandomGuy wrote:Raditz can't change his battle power ("suppress"), but still said he would put less into his attacks than he could, and move slower than a full sprint.

Chapter: 199 (DBZ 5), P14.1-5
Raditz: “But it’s just a matter of time before you die…I’ll be slowly making my attacks stronger.”

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Re: Are Androids 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Tue Jan 27, 2015 6:54 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:I dunno, the way they say it and the context of the scene coupled with the fact that we never see any of the Ginyus (besides Ginyu) power makes it seems like it to me, but I guess that's my interpretation.

there's still this:
RandomGuy wrote:Raditz can't change his battle power ("suppress"), but still said he would put less into his attacks than he could, and move slower than a full sprint.

Chapter: 199 (DBZ 5), P14.1-5
Raditz: “But it’s just a matter of time before you die…I’ll be slowly making my attacks stronger.”
Your more than welcome to your interpretation. It's actually one I agree with. You just can't portray it as fact to prove other interpretations.

The same thing is said about Nappa and Vegeta, yet they both manipulate their battle power. Given that it's never actually said that Raditz can't manipulate his, then that doesn't prove anything. All is shown is that he is surprised that Goku and Piccolo can do it.
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Re: Are Androids 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Tue Jan 27, 2015 6:56 pm

Vegeta couldn't manipulate his power. He tells Kiwi when he gets to Namek that on Earth he learned to conceal his power, just like how he learned to sense ki.

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Re: Are Androids 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by RandomGuy96 » Tue Jan 27, 2015 6:57 pm

The same thing is said about Nappa and Vegeta, yet they both manipulate their battle power.
What? No they don't. Vegeta explicitly says he can't, and Nappa is shocked that people are able to. Well, they can make their attacks stronger by shoving a bunch of ki into them, but that's not really the same thing as being able to hold back by suppressing your battle power.
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RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Are Androids 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Tue Jan 27, 2015 7:01 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Vegeta couldn't manipulate his power. He tells Kiwi when he gets to Namek that on Earth he learned to conceal his power, just like how he learned to sense ki.
Vegeta and Nappa both explicitly power up in front of everyone. At the beginning of the Goku/Vegeta fight we see this. Goku's "he's stronger than I thought" comments. Piccolo and co's comments on not being able to tell that Vegeta was stronger than Nappa. Vegeta's Galick Gun is capable of matching Goku's Kaio-Ken x3 Kamehameha, despite the latter being at 24 thousand and Vegeta being at 18 thousand. If anything, it's an inconsistency in the manga, since we blatantly see that these characters can manipulate their battle power.
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Re: Are Androids 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by RandomGuy96 » Tue Jan 27, 2015 7:05 pm

Vegeta and Nappa both explicitly power up in front of everyone. At the beginning of the Goku/Vegeta fight we see this. Goku's "he's stronger than I thought" comments.
As Kaboom has said, that's less "increasing battle power", and more "flexing". Goku can sense it easier, but it hasn't actually changed, since Vegeta explicitly said he couldn't change it.
Piccolo and co's comments on not being able to tell that Vegeta was stronger than Nappa.
That has more to do with their ki sensing skills being lacking at this time, which is proven repeatedly during the Raditz fight. Note that, if Vegeta truly can suppress his power below Piccolo's (which Piccolo's demeanor would indicate), he has zero reason to credit the Earthlings with teaching him that ability, since he can do it much, much better than they can.
Vegeta's Galick Gun is capable of matching Goku's Kaio-Ken x3 Kamehameha, despite the latter being at 24 thousand and Vegeta being at 18 thousand. If anything, it's an inconsistency in the manga, since we blatantly see that these characters can manipulate their battle power.
Shoving a bunch of ki into one attack is not the same thing as being able to change your battle power to a lower number whenever you want.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Are Androids 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by Hitiro » Tue Jan 27, 2015 7:06 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong again. Reacoom can't suppress, yet he said he hit Kuririn too hard, meaning he accidentally put too much force into his hit. Which would mean he was trying to hold back.
For characters like Recoome their battle powers still fluctuate though. Recoom holding back would lower his battle power. But the Z-senshi have the skill to suppress it to really low levels. In my opinion you can look at it as if Recoom has a battle power which is basically like a resting heart rate. When he fights his battle power increases like your heart rate would increase through exercise to a maximum. But characters like Kuririn and Gohan are like those people you see in spy movies or other such movies where they can slow or stop their heart rate. But obviously that is a difficult thing to do if you're running about waving your arms like a loon and shouting at the top of your voice.

I think characters are less shocked about the increase in battle power an more shocked at how much the increase was. You wouldn't think someone with a battle power of 5,000 would have a fighting battle power above 6 or 7 thousand for instance. So Recoom while he isn't fighting might be 38,000 and then when he fights it goes up to 40,000.

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Re: Are Androids 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

Post by rereboy » Tue Jan 27, 2015 7:22 pm

In my opinion, the difference between characters who can change their power level and those who can't is this:

- characters that can change their power level are able to store parts of their power deep inside of them, below the surface.
- characters that can't change their power level have all their power readily available at surface level.

Does this mean that characters that can't change their power can't control how much power they use and put behind their moves? IMO, no it doesn't. They can still control how much power they put on their moves and, by concentrating and using techniques, they can use that power more effectively. Only, since their power was at a surface level, a scouter will still pick up their real power level even if they aren't using it at all.

Meanwhile, characters that can control their power level, store portions of their power below surface level. In this case, the scouter can't pick up the portions of power that they stored below the surface, except when they bring it out.

However, Ki sensing is different from a scouter reading. Ki sensing relies more on the impression, senses and instincts of a fighter. Its works more as a felling than a scientific reading. Which is why, with Ki sensing, the impression of power will be more evident when a character actually uses his power, even if its a character that can't change his power level and has his power at surface level. That's why when these types of characters start to use their power, other characters that rely on Ki sensing immediately grasp much more accurately the nature and size of that's character's power.
Last edited by rereboy on Tue Jan 27, 2015 7:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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