How strong are the Android arc humans?

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Re: How strong are the Android arc humans?

Post by In Brightest Day » Fri Feb 13, 2015 1:34 am

Google the term Ockham's Razor in regards to Yamcha's statement, Hugo Boss.

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Re: How strong are the Android arc humans?

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Feb 13, 2015 1:41 am

In Brightest Day wrote:Google the term Ockham's Razor in regards to Yamcha's statement, Hugo Boss.
What is your understanding of the term? What's the relationship with Yamcha's statement?

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Re: How strong are the Android arc humans?

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Fri Feb 13, 2015 1:43 am

Hugo Boss wrote:As for the last point, characters can be wrong without the intent to provide false information.
Never once happened before. Why would an author make a character say something if it's the opposite of what we're supposed to think? That is completely asinine and pointless. The line wouldn't be there at all if it had no meaning. Authors don't lie to us.
But supposing Yamcha was referring to anything in the Cell Arc, with what basis he concluded Kuririn was stronger than Tenshinhan?
He can sense ki. He was around both of them.

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Re: How strong are the Android arc humans?

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Feb 13, 2015 1:59 am

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Never once happened before. Why would an author make a character say something if it's the opposite of what we're supposed to think? That is completely asinine and pointless. The line wouldn't be there at all if it had no meaning. Authors don't lie to us.
I could give tons of examples, but I think one or two are enough. Vegeta was wrong when he said he was the strongest Saiyan. Boo was wrong about a fusion of Goku and Vegeta being weaker than him. Apparently, the absence of basis or the lack of a Kuririn vs. Tenshinhan makes me doubt Yamcha's statement. I critize Toriyama to not providing context to that sentiment.
He can sense ki. He was around both of them.
Sensing ki is not enough as an evidence, not to say it's becoming commonly off. Even if Kuririn's ki is larger than Tenshinhan's, he could still reverse the battlepowers.

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Re: How strong are the Android arc humans?

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Fri Feb 13, 2015 2:06 am

Hugo Boss wrote:I could give tons of examples, but I think one or two are enough. Vegeta was wrong when he said he was the strongest Saiyan. Boo was wrong about a fusion of Goku and Vegeta being weaker than him. Apparently, the absence of basis or the lack of a Kuririn vs. Tenshinhan makes me doubt Yamcha's statement. I critize Toriyama to not providing context to that sentiment.
Except there's a difference. Those statements are contradicted. We find out they're lying through another event. Nothing leads us to believe Yamcha was lying, as I don't see why he would lie to himself.

Also, to be fair, Buu didn't know potara were stronger than metamoran, he was only expecting someone as strong as Gogeta, so technically he wasn't contradicted or lying.
Sensing ki is not enough as an evidence, not to say it's becoming commonly off. Even if Kuririn's ki is larger than Tenshinhan's, he could still reverse the battlepowers.
Reverse the- what the? All of them were at the Cell Games fighting, Yamcha can sense ki. The only reason to say he just randomly turned of his ki sensing abilities for some reason just sounds like a way to discredit his statement, which would again, serve no purpose if it wasn't meant for a comparison. We understand Kuririn > normal human, so why have Yamcha say that if it excludes Tenshinhan?

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Re: How strong are the Android arc humans?

Post by In Brightest Day » Fri Feb 13, 2015 2:25 am

I think HB's argument has gone from "Tenshinhan isn't included in that statement" to Yamcha basically being wrong. This is kind of incredible to be reading right now.

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Re: How strong are the Android arc humans?

Post by Stonefallow » Fri Feb 13, 2015 3:53 am

Hugo Boss wrote: I could give tons of examples, but I think one or two are enough. Vegeta was wrong when he said he was the strongest Saiyan. Boo was wrong about a fusion of Goku and Vegeta being weaker than him. Apparently, the absence of basis or the lack of a Kuririn vs. Tenshinhan makes me doubt Yamcha's statement. I critize Toriyama to not providing context to that sentiment.
It's basic Storytelling 101 that when a statement is used to provide exposition you are meant to take it as fact. Exposition serves the purpose of providing context and objectivity to the reader. If fictional characters routinely gave out misinformation the way people do in real life, there wouldn't be a cohesive story to tell. This is why in writing the general rule is a statement is true unless demonstrated to be false. (Of course there are exceptions. Stories with "unreliable narrators" and stories based around deception such as "Lost" and "The Da Vinci Code" will break this rule all the time. But Dragon Ball is not one of those shows.) All of your examples involve characters who were shown to be wrong by later plot developments, as SSJ2FutureGohan said. Yamcha's statement does not fall into this category.

Saying a lack of a Kuririn vs. Tenshinhan makes you doubt Yamcha's statement is shifting the burden of proof.

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Re: How strong are the Android arc humans?

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Feb 13, 2015 11:16 am

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Nothing leads us to believe Yamcha was lying, as I don't see why he would lie to himself.
I'm not saying Yamcha is lying, but his statement and any Toriyama word confirming Kuririn is the strongest Earthling with Tenshinhan included is just odd to me. It's my perspective from the story that makes me overthinking it.
Also, to be fair, Buu didn't know potara were stronger than metamoran, he was only expecting someone as strong as Gogeta, so technically he wasn't contradicted or lying.
He was contradicted by the fact Vegetto was stronger than him. I can't suppose Boo knows how to calculate fusion's power-up. He has problems with names, even with Piccolo's brains.
Reverse the- what the? All of them were at the Cell Games fighting, Yamcha can sense ki. The only reason to say he just randomly turned of his ki sensing abilities for some reason just sounds like a way to discredit his statement, which would again, serve no purpose if it wasn't meant for a comparison. We understand Kuririn > normal human, so why have Yamcha say that if it excludes Tenshinhan?
By reverse I mean his full power can be higher than Kuririn's full power even if his supressed power is lower than Kuririn's. I guess Yamcha had more to worry about his life than comparing Tenshinhan and Kuririn while they are near getting killed. And you just assumed he based his statement on ki sensing, which is not proven to be always accurate and either that it was the case. I'm not lecturing you to believe Tenshinhan has to be excluded from that sentiment, I just don't agree with you.
In Brightest Day wrote:I think HB's argument has gone from "Tenshinhan isn't included in that statement" to Yamcha basically being wrong.
No, you get me wrong. Let me clarify this. I just think it's odd Tenshinhan being included in that statement, because Yamcha hadn't seen Tenshinhan for seven years (so, how would he know Tenshinhan didn't get stronger?). Then, I assume Yamcha was gauging from how they faired against Freeza or the androids. Which I don't understand is what Kuririn did back then to make him more impressive than Tenshinhan at all. Unfortunately, the Earthling trio was fodderized in terms of strenght, so I could risk Toriyama just did an arbitrary choice of who is the strongest among them, which I don't support.
Stonefallow wrote:Saying a lack of a Kuririn vs. Tenshinhan makes you doubt Yamcha's statement is shifting the burden of proof.
I'm not exactly in the position of saying I have a better understanding of what "burden of proof" means, but statements alone have to be proven correct in my work, otherwise I won't provide what the author is requiring me injunctionly. Shifiting the burden of proof is only necessary when the part who is making the statement is technically hipossuficient to provide proof, which I believe it's not the case from Kanzenshuu's members since they have tons of information to find here. I just have a case of an author arbitrarily deciding Kuririn is suposedly stronger than even Tenshinhan without caring for a demonstration of that kind I miss.

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Re: How strong are the Android arc humans?

Post by singsing » Fri Feb 13, 2015 11:38 am

I mean, unless a statement is blatantly contradicted, there's literally no reason for an author to include a statement unless that is what they mean. Especially an author like Toriyama, who definitely doesn't put 1% of the thought we do on his own series and just writes whatever he thinks is correct. There's a strong case for Krillin being stronger simply because of the potential unlock that apparently kept making him stronger all the way through to his death by Freeza. Tien never got anything like that. They got King Kai training sure, but a potential unlock is HUGE. That, coupled with his own Android Arc training and being naturally strong and talented, beats out training and naturally strong/talent.

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Re: How strong are the Android arc humans?

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Fri Feb 13, 2015 12:32 pm

I dont see how you can be any more blatantly clear than "Kuririn is the strongest Earthling male."
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Re: How strong are the Android arc humans?

Post by Turtle bits » Fri Feb 13, 2015 7:53 pm

I've wondered this for years, and never seen a clear answer, so this topic has been pretty insightful actually. Since toriyama says kururin is the strongest human, thats pretty cool, I've been hoping that was the case honestly.

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Re: How strong are the Android arc humans?

Post by RandomGuy96 » Fri Feb 13, 2015 7:59 pm

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:I dunno. The way Tenshinhan talks about Chaozu seems to imply he's really weak. I'd like to think going from 610 to a million in four yrs through pure training would reflect a different opinion than "He wouldn't keep up in this fight."
He still would be massively weak compared to Ten even if the power relation didn't change. It's not like Ten's comment makes sense either way, though. Is Tenshinhan implying that HE can keep up with this fight?
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dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: How strong are the Android arc humans?

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Fri Feb 13, 2015 8:16 pm

Tien's quote on Chaozu could also be out of genuine care for the lil guy. I think he knew Chaozu would've been useless either way, so he decided to keep him out of the battle.

But yeah, Tien's basically implying he'd be of some use. He seemed eager enough to fight alongside Goku and Piccolo at first. However, once he started sensing Super Saiyans and the powered-up Piccolo, he no longer wanted to fight.
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Re: How strong are the Android arc humans?

Post by RandomGuy96 » Fri Feb 13, 2015 8:32 pm

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:Tenshinhan's quote on Chaozu could also be out of genuine care for the lil guy. I think he knew Chaozu would've been useless either way, so he decided to keep him out of the battle.

But yeah, Tenshinhan's basically implying he'd be of some use. He seemed eager enough to fight alongside Goku and Piccolo at first. However, once he started sensing Super Saiyans and the powered-up Piccolo, he no longer wanted to fight.
Note that he also didn't want Chaozu to show up to the battle with the saiyans. He'd probably be significantly less willing to let the little guy come along after the battle with Nappa. So it's not like Chaozu has to be disproportionately weak compared to him, just for Ten to decide to not take him.

Which doesn't really make sense, since he sensed SS Trunks, SS Goku, Freeza, and Cold, all of whom should be dozens of times stronger than him. Perhaps Toriyama retconned him being there? That'd explain his surprise at the power of a Super Saiyan.
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RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: How strong are the Android arc humans?

Post by kuartus4 » Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:01 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote: Perhaps Toriyama retconned him being there? That'd explain his surprise at the power of a Super Saiyan.
If he wasn't there, then how would he know when and where to show up three years later for the androids? Plus Tien remembers Trunks killing Freeza. I think his surprise is just at how strong Goku has gotten.

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Re: How strong are the Android arc humans?

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:22 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:Which doesn't really make sense, since he sensed SS Trunks, SS Goku, Freeza, and Cold, all of whom should be dozens of times stronger than him. Perhaps Toriyama retconned him being there? That'd explain his surprise at the power of a Super Saiyan.
Yeah, his quote makes it sound like it was his first time sensing Super Saiyan Goku.

Maybe it's because he got to actually see Super Saiyan up close? Tien's weird.
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Re: How strong are the Android arc humans?

Post by In Brightest Day » Sat Feb 14, 2015 12:19 am

Perhaps Tenshinhnan based his potential usefulness on the Ki-Ko-Ho, or as a tactical distraction while one of the Super Saiyans or Piccolo delivered the finishing blow. These guys showed up to help, but no one was expecting them to do the majority of the legwork. Ultimately, the three of them knew heading into it that either Goku or Trunks would save the day.

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Re: How strong are the Android arc humans?

Post by Kid Buu » Sat Feb 14, 2015 2:38 am

Not strong enough to do anything relevant in battle.
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Re: How strong are the Android arc humans?

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Feb 14, 2015 9:59 am

singsing wrote:There's a strong case for Krillin being stronger simply because of the potential unlock that apparently kept making him stronger all the way through to his death by Freeza. Tenshinhan never got anything like that. They got King Kai training sure, but a potential unlock is HUGE. That, coupled with his own Android Arc training and being naturally strong and talented, beats out training and naturally strong/talent.
That's a plausible reason, but basically you are doing the author's work in explaining his choice.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:I dont see how you can be any more blatantly clear than "Kuririn is the strongest Earthling male."
I assume you don't have a problem with the lack of demonstration. Beerus was said to be the strongest in the history of Z, but he does stuff confirming that sentiment in the movie.

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Re: How strong are the Android arc humans?

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Sat Feb 14, 2015 11:40 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
Kamiccolo9 wrote:I dont see how you can be any more blatantly clear than "Kuririn is the strongest Earthling male."
I assume you don't have a problem with the lack of demonstration. Beerus was said to be the strongest in the history of Z, but he does stuff confirming that sentiment in the movie.
No, I think it's just dumb to ignore clear statements from the author about the series he created that don't contradict anything in the tory.
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