How strong are the Android arc humans?

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

He was contradicted by the fact Vegetto was stronger than him. I can't suppose Boo knows how to calculate fusion's power-up. He has problems with names, even with Piccolo's brains.

Did you miss what I said?

His estimation was based off of the metamoran's fusion boost, so Vegetto contradicting him is irrelevant to that, since potara were stated to be stronger. He doesn't really need to "calculate" the fusion, just sense the difference between Goten and Vegeta. Also, that's plot knowledge, Goku was shown to estimate Gotenks' strength early in the arc just fine.

[Hugo Boss]

I think it's just dumb to ignore clear statements from the author about the series he created that don't contradict anything in the tory.

In another hand, I respect those who just accept them, but I agreed to be part of a community where people also respect my perspective. The OP asked how strong are the Android Arc humans and I stated my opinion, initially ignoring what the author said about the subject and learning from my lack of information. Kuririn being stronger than Tenshinhan doesn't contradict anything in the story, but I just feel Tenshinhan does more impressive things in the Android and Boo Arcs, it's entirely personal. Maybe I'm the only one who thinks that way, whatever.

His estimation was based off of the metamoran's fusion boost, so Vegetto contradicting him is irrelevant to that, since potara were stated to be stronger. He doesn't really need to "calculate" the fusion, just sense the difference between Goten and Vegeta. Also, that's plot knowledge, Goku was shown to estimate Gotenks' strength early in the arc just fine.

I didn't miss what you said, I just don't agree. I don't think Boo did any estimation, it's a theory I don't support, I think Boo was just being arrogant. And Goku can make whatever estimation he wants, but Gotenks has to prove his worth with actions for me to believe in his strength. I'm a picky reader/viewer.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Ockham's razor, and those statements about Gotenks are there for a reason.

Super Buu isn't arrogant/cocky, so why would he be here? And he was never contradicted.

[Hugo Boss]

Throwing a term I don't know won't help you to be clear, what means "Ockham's razor"? Please, don't ask me to google it, I want to see your perspective. And understand, I'm not an expert in storytelling narrative rules. For me, statements need evidence to back them up, even if they come from the author itself. Otherwise, the story lacks consistency in my view. If the community accepts that statements are no longer facts, only when contradicted, I have no problem either, but I'm not used to think like that.

As for Boo's topic, one can become arrogant/cocky when he thinks there is none around stronger, that's a natural thought, which one can learn once they accept defeat. Even when Boo was helpless against Vegetto, he was still struggling, but deep inside he knew he shouldn't let them fuse. Just in case, he aimed to kill Goku when he suggested fusion with Gohan.

[Hitiro]

Throwing a term I don't know won't help you to be clear, what means "Ockham's razor"? Please, don't ask me to google it, I want to see your perspective. And understand, I'm not an expert in storytelling narrative rules. For me, statements need evidence to back them up, even if they come from the author itself. Otherwise, the story lacks consistency in my view. If the community accepts that statements are no longer facts, only when contradicted, I have no problem either, but I'm not used to think like that.

As for Boo's topic, one can become arrogant/cocky when he thinks there is none around stronger, that's a natural thought, which one can learn once they accept defeat. Even when Boo was helpless against Vegetto, he was still struggling, but deep inside he knew he shouldn't let them fuse. Just in case, he aimed to kill Goku when he suggested fusion with Gohan.

Occam's razor is a problem solving principle which is basically a hypothesis(idea) with the least amount of assumptions tends to be the right one because the fewer assumptions that are made the better. Though this isn't always the case, solutions which are more convoluted may be the correct hypothesis. But generally the one with the least amount of assumptions tends to be correct.

So in this example. Because you make the most assumptions with your opinion it is more likely the incorrect idea. It doesn't mean it is actually wrong. You could be right. But unless you can prove that your opinion is correct or remove the assumptions from your opinion then it is more possible for it to be wrong.

So here:
Opinion 1
Fact: Boohan believes a fusion won't beat him.
Assumptions: 1. An estimation based on his past experience with fusions.

Opinion 2
Fact: Boohan believes a fusion won't beat him.
Assumptions: 1. Because he is arrogant.
2. He isn't basing it off of previous experience with fusions.

^Opinion 1 is more likely because it solves the problem in the least amount of assumptions.

[Hugo Boss]

Hmm this principle seems fallacious, an opinion is not more certain than another, just because it has fewer assumptions. There may be an opinion based on a wrong assumption and another based on two certain assumptions. I believe the best way to solve the problem is simply providing evidence within story and not simply reducing the number of assumptions. Though, I agree that can function as a greater margin of probability.

As for your your board. Opinion 1 would be more likely if I didn't add one more asssumption: Boo isn't arrogant. Opinion 2 would be more likely if I cut the second assumption. So, even.

[Hitiro]

Hmm this principle seems fallacious, an opinion is not more certain than another, just because it has fewer assumptions. There may be an opinion based on a wrong assumption and another based on two certain assumptions. I believe the best way to solve the problem is simply providing evidence within story and not simply reducing the number of assumptions. Though, I agree that can function as a greater margin of probability.

As for your your board. Opinion 1 would be more likely if I didn't add one more asssumption: Boo isn't arrogant. Opinion 2 would be more likely if I cut the second assumption. So, even.

It's not fallacious really. The point of the principle is that if you're assuming less things then you have less chance of being incorrect. The more assumptions you make the higher the chance you will be wrong. If I assume 100 things to make my point make sense then I have 100 things that may be wrong. If I assume 1 thing to make my point then I only have 1 thing that could be wrong.

As for what you said on the opinions. You can't add "Boo isn't arrogant" to opinion 1. Because it is the assumption that is the basis of opinion 2. But for opinion 2 you have to ignore the fact that Boo has past knowledge of fusion so you can't cut it otherwise Boo's arrogance is unfounded. It would just be confidence if he was using the his past knowledge of fusion. Therefore Opinion 2 has more assumptions.

I mean if you're going to honestly cut it then I can go further and add things to opinion 2 based around the whole "he's being arrogant thing." If he was truly arrogant then why would he feel the need to prevent the fusion? Surely if he was truly arrogant he wouldn't care if they fused? Based on the answer to this you're going to add another assumption to opinion 2.

[Hugo Boss]

The whole principle is based on chances, which is why I think it's fallacious. The theory of evidence works in the opposite way, always asking for demonstration and refining its methods. Opinions in another hand don't need evidence, so the principle just works fine in that case.

And if I can't add "Boo isn't being arrogant" to Opinion 1, you can't add "Boo isn't basing it off of previous experience with fusions" to Opinion 2. You conveniently decided I need two assumptions to justify my opinion when I just assumed "Boo was being arrogant." Future Gohan also said "Boo isn't arrogant/cocky" and you didn't treat that as an assumption.

[Hitiro]

The whole principle is based on chances, which is why I think it's fallacious. The theory of evidence works in the opposite way, always asking for demonstration and refining its methods. Opinions in another hand don't need evidence, so the principle just works fine in that case.

And if I can't add "Boo isn't being arrogant" to Opinion 1, you can't add "Boo isn't basing it off of previous experience with fusions" to Opinion 2. You conveniently assumed I need two assumptions to justify my opinion when I just assumed "Boo was being arrogant." Future Gohan also said "Boo was never shown to be arrogant/cocky" and you didn't treat that as an assumption.

Future Gohan? As I pointed out above you would still need more than one assumption to justify your opinion. Even if the assumptions I suggested aren't great you still need to explain why someone who is arrogant would feel the need to stop a fusion. A truly arrogant person, like Vegeta, like Cell, like Gohan. Wouldn't take the pre-caution. Now, how you answer this will just add another assumption to your list.

[Hugo Boss]

The user, lol. Okay, I feel like we are going in circles. I will try to avoid further responses about this mini-topic.

First, my opinion is that Boo was being arrogant when he made that comment. SSJ2FutureGohan thinks Boo knew how powerful would be a fusion of Goku and Gohan based on his past experience with Gotenks' Fusion. Each one of us made one assumption, I suppose.

Second, SSJ2FutureGohan basically denied my assumption, because he thinks Boo isn't arrogant. That could be his second assumption. I think Boo doesn't have a clue about fusion's math. That could be my second assumption.

Third, you, Hitiro, decided I have to justify my assumptions, which would force me to add another assumptions, because I can't provide evidence to back my opinion up and end that circle. Why don't you ask SSJ2FutureGohan to justify his? I think that would be a waste of time for him and for me. It's entirely up to him to do it if he wants, I'm not in the position to demand anything. But honestly, I bet you think his first assumption is more likely (in a quality manner), which kills the quantity characteristic of Orckam's razor principle.

Fourth, to justify my opinion with another assumption. Freeza wasn't admitting defeat in the hands of a Super Saiyan, he was defending his title as the strongest in the universe to the extreme. But I recall he taking the precaution of destroying Planet Vegeta, just in case. And just in case, Gotenks Boo would kill Goku before Gohan gets the chance to put the earring on. Just in case, he would kill Vegeta if he was fast enough to reach them. Tons of assumptions, I suppose.

Finally, I think Kamiccolo9's response is just enough to finish the discussion I started, I'm just dumb, the author's word is clear and it's not contradicted in the story. My problem is with Toriyama only. I wish we could have a Kuririn vs. Tenshinhan.

[dbgtFO]

Finally, I think Kamiccolo9's response is just enough to finish the discussion I started, I'm just dumb, the author's word is clear and it's not contradicted in the story. My problem is with Toriyama only. I wish we could have a Kuririn vs. Tenshinhan.

Agreed. The lack of clear evidence proving certain statements right is annoying. We are supposed to simply believe certaing things, even though it isn't demonstrated to us through actions and that's really underwhelming.
At least the anime explored certain concepts more thouroughly..

As for topic I'd think they are in the low millions. It's complete bullshit, but I don't think Toriyama would be writing it as if the earthlings were hopelessly behind the base saiyans. Of course he probably wouldn't think about it in terms of battle powers either, so let me word it as: "somewhat inferior to base saiyans."

[Hitiro]

The user, lol. Okay, I feel like we are going in circles. I will try to avoid further responses about this mini-topic.

First, my opinion is that Boo was being arrogant when he made that comment. SSJ2FutureGohan thinks Boo knew how powerful would be a fusion of Goku and Gohan based on his past experience with Gotenks' Fusion. Each one of us made one assumption, I suppose.

Second, SSJ2FutureGohan basically denied my assumption, because he thinks Boo isn't arrogant. That could be his second assumption. I think Boo doesn't have a clue about fusion's math. That could be my second assumption.

Third, you, Hitiro, decided I have to justify my assumptions, which would force me to add another assumptions, because I can't provide evidence to back my opinion up and end that circle. Why don't you ask SSJ2FutureGohan to justify his? I think that would be a waste of time for him and for me. It's entirely up to him to do it if he wants, I'm not in the position to demand anything. But honestly, I bet you think his first assumption is more likely (in a quality manner), which kills the quantity characteristic of Orckam's razor principle.

Fourth, to justify my opinion with another assumption. Freeza wasn't admitting defeat in the hands of a Super Saiyan, he was defending his title as the strongest in the universe to the extreme. But I recall he taking the precaution of destroying Planet Vegeta, just in case. And just in case, Gotenks Boo would kill Goku before Gohan gets the chance to put the earring on. Just in case, he would kill Vegeta if he was fast enough to reach them. Tons of assumptions, I suppose.

Finally, I think Kamiccolo9's response is just enough to finish the discussion I started, I'm just dumb, the author's word is clear and it's not contradicted in the story. My problem is with Toriyama only. I wish we could have a Kuririn vs. Tenshinhan.

Why does SSJ2FutureGohan need to justify his assumption? There is nothing conflicting his statement. If he had said that Boo was basing his his opinion on fusion from past experience without having past experience of fusion then yes. I would ask him why he thought that way. But as far as I'm aware Boo does have past experience of fusion on at least 3 separate occasions.

I asked you to explain how he was arrogant because his motif does not fit what would be an arrogant person. In the manga's past we have seen several arrogant displays from characters. They are all understandable. Vegeta allowed Cell to transform because he was arrogant about his power. Cell forced Gohan to transform because he was arrogant and believed nobody could beat him. Gohan was arrogant because he thought Cell couldn't do anything so he toyed with him. Do you see a pattern? If Boo was truly arrogant then he wouldn't have cared if Gohan and Goku fused because in arrogance he'd believe there is no way they could beat him once fused. Yet Boo aired on the side of caution. Why would he do this if he was truly being arrogant? You have to assume something to explain why, even though he was arrogant, he still felt he should stop the fusion.

There problem here is SSJ2FutureGohan's opinion has an assumption that is founded one because Boo has had past experience with fusions. He doesn't have to make any more assumptions than what he has because it is based on a fact. But your opinion doesn't really make sense unless you can assume, or prove something, that makes your arrogance statement a good assumption. And if you're going to assume something then it is just going to make more assumptions on your opinion.

[Hugo Boss]

Hitiro, this discussion is turning into an ouroboros. I'm not exactly trying to make my opinion better than SSJ2FutureGohan, that's nonsense.

Sure, if someone wants to explain to me why having experience with Fusion should lead me to think Boo knows how to do the Fusion's math, feel free to send me a PM (taking the opportunity to explain to me also how Boo knows the kids' power-up works in the same pattern as the adults).

My (fan) interpretation about what Boo said is something like "I don't think even that will work, but why take the risk? Just in case, I should kill one of you". If that's not arrogance, I guess I made a mistake.

As for topic I'd think they are in the low millions. It's complete bullshit, but I don't think Toriyama would be writing it as if the earthlings were hopelessly behind the base saiyans. Of course he probably wouldn't think about it in terms of battle powers either, so let me word it as: "somewhat inferior to base saiyans."

Don't you think Tenshinhan or Kuririn have a chance against Gohan before the training in the RoSaT?

[singsing]

That's like, the exact opposite of arrogant. If he were truly arrogant, he wouldn't be cautious and would be like "It's whatever dudes, I'm the strongest there is! Go ahead and fuse."

[Hugo Boss]

Hmm I thought that was called pride, but okay then. Trying to find a proper adjective.

[singsing]

Hmm I thought that was called pride, but okay then. Trying to find a proper adjective.

Having a lot of pride would be someone like Vegeta. Being arrogant is taking pride to the next level.

[mAcChaos]

Yes, if you think something won't work but try to stop it on the tiny chance that it might hurt you, you are being cautious.

The reason people think that knowledge of fusion or experience with it can help judge the power result is because Goku was able to do that with Gotenks.

[TobyS]

The trouble is, even if the humans "catch up" to base saiyan levels, like even less than the gap between themselves and Goku at the start of the saiyan saga only smaller. (They are no longer one 'trainer' behind Goku)

They still stop being relevant the moment that brutal 50x Multiplier of super-saiyan comes in.
They would maybe be relevant if they could pull a x20 kaioken, (nearly half a super-saiyan each)
They would maybe be relevant with 19 and 20 depending on how much weaker than a super saiyan those androids are.

But the moment you get 18 who can solo Vegeta and 17 and 18 who can do in 2 supersaiyans, Piccolo and Tenshinhan they are no longer much use.
That's before the various forms of cell even appear.

While Tenshinhan never said he couldn't get stronger in the room of spirit and time, he knew he still wouldn't be relevant to Cell even factoring in those gains.