What if Kid Buu had won the final battle (consequences?)

[Rocketman]

Alternatively, he could have IT'd away, charged his attack and then fire it at Buu.

Buu can teleport too, remember?

It really depends on which part of the fight does Boo win. If he wins prior to Porunga reviving everyone, then he blows up the Kaioshin planet and goes on to cause havoc throughout the universe for a few years until Beerus wakes up and vaporizes him for some reason. If he wins after Porunga revives everyone, it's possible that the Kaioshin teleports Gohan to the planet before Kid Boo blows it up, and Gohan proceeds to kill him.

Of course, the question is why he can't just bring Gohan now.

[NitroEX]

Alternatively, he could have IT'd away, charged his attack and then fire it at Buu.

Buu can teleport too, remember?

Which, funnily enough, is yet another reason why the ending doesn't make a lot of sense since Buu could have just teleported out of the way of the Spirit Bomb.

Now that would have been one hell of an anti-climax.

[DBZAOTA482]

More reasons why Majin Boo sucks as a final villain.

[Hitiro]

Yeah I kind of remember Goku saying that they'd get slaughtered after they left Buu's stomach. Do you remember what scene that happened in?

He says it after they separate Gohan and the others from Evil Boo.

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”

[Aoi]

Alternatively, he could have IT'd away, charged his attack and then fire it at Buu.

Buu can teleport too, remember?

Which, funnily enough, is yet another reason why the ending doesn't make a lot of sense since Buu could have just teleported out of the way of the Spirit Bomb.

Now that would have been one hell of an anti-climax.

But... to teleport you have to have a lock-on on someone's ki. That takes maybe 30 seconds of deep concentration. Before this fight, Kid Buu was only teleporting to other planets just because he was tracking the highest power levels he was feeling across the universe in order to find Goku and Vegeta.

Right when Kid Buu is destroying the earth, Goku says that he can't teleport because he's in too much of a hurry to really lock-on someone's ki. So...Kid Buu would never have been able to dodge the Spirit Bomb.

[Aoi]

Yeah I kind of remember Goku saying that they'd get slaughtered after they left Buu's stomach. Do you remember what scene that happened in?

He says it after they separate Gohan and the others from Evil Boo.

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”

Yeah... it seems to me that Gohan is definitely at least stronger than SSJ3 Goku. Especially when Goku is "alive" again and his body is even more limited.

But...I don't think the correct question is "How strong are Gohan and Goku SSJ3?", but..."How strong is Kid Buu?" This is the key to really making sense of the arc. In my opinion, Kid Buu has to be > Gohan and SSJ3 Goku. Still...I still don't feel the final battle loses any tension. I always assumed that if Kid Buu wasn't killed right there, then he would have immediately gone on a massive rampage all over the Other World.

I don't know much of Episode 279 "Battle for the Universe Begins" is from the manga. But in one scene, Kid Buu definitely tries to blow-up the Supreme Kai Planet, but fails. I don't think anyone would have ever been able to kill Kid Buu had he left that planet.

[Rocketman]

But... to teleport you have to have a lock-on on someone's ki. That takes maybe 30 seconds of deep concentration. Before this fight, Kid Buu was only teleporting to other planets just because he was tracking the highest power levels he was feeling across the universe in order to find Goku and Vegeta.

Right when Kid Buu is destroying the earth, Goku says that he can't teleport because he's in too much of a hurry to really lock-on someone's ki. So...Kid Buu would never have been able to dodge the Spirit Bomb.

Only the Yardrat teleportation needs you to lock-on. Kid Buu copied Kibitokai's teleportation, which doesn't.

Also that's filler. In the manga Buu immediately teleports to fight them.

[NitroEX]

But... to teleport you have to have a lock-on on someone's ki. That takes maybe 30 seconds of deep concentration. Before this fight, Kid Buu was only teleporting to other planets just because he was tracking the highest power levels he was feeling across the universe in order to find Goku and Vegeta.

Right when Kid Buu is destroying the earth, Goku says that he can't teleport because he's in too much of a hurry to really lock-on someone's ki. So...Kid Buu would never have been able to dodge the Spirit Bomb.

I can accept Buu not being quick minded enough to teleport out of the way but to say that there was no other Ki to lock onto when a full powered Goku was on the other side of the Spirit Bomb doesn't seem right.

[Aoi]

But... to teleport you have to have a lock-on on someone's ki. That takes maybe 30 seconds of deep concentration. Before this fight, Kid Buu was only teleporting to other planets just because he was tracking the highest power levels he was feeling across the universe in order to find Goku and Vegeta.

Right when Kid Buu is destroying the earth, Goku says that he can't teleport because he's in too much of a hurry to really lock-on someone's ki. So...Kid Buu would never have been able to dodge the Spirit Bomb.

I can accept Buu not being quick minded enough to teleport out of the way but to say that there was no other Ki to lock onto when a full powered Goku was on the other side of the Spirit Bomb doesn't seem right.

Yeah he could have done that. But Kid Buu never came across as this experienced fighter who uses teleportation in battle like Goku does (instead of just ...traveling very far). Beyond that...notice that Kid Buu immediately tries to just shoot the spirit bomb in a panic. That was his mistake. By that point it's too late. After that, he catches it. After maybe 10-15 seconds of a struggle he takes control of it pretty quickly. So...it's obvious that Buu was pretty confident in winning the struggle. He had no idea that the Dragon Balls were going to revive Goku's strength to 100%.

[Deep Thought]

Yeah I kind of remember Goku saying that they'd get slaughtered after they left Buu's stomach. Do you remember what scene that happened in?

He says it after they separate Gohan and the others from Evil Boo.

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”

That's a pretty damning instance, to be honest, and I have another that might be even more so, in terms of showing the strength discrepancy between Goku and Gohan.

http://imgur.com/lEUBOKT
http://imgur.com/WMKf8JB
http://imgur.com/toR46Xd
http://imgur.com/ZJ7cgUO

Gohan versus Gotenks-Buu is interesting in that Gohan still puts up a pretty decent fight. Don't get me wrong, he ultimately gets his ass handed to him, but its not outright annihilation. Gohan is able to break out of the rings and withstand quite a beating. Contrast that with Goku's reaction at the prospect of fighting Gotenks-Buu. he seems absolutely terrified, at least to me. He start praying, begging Buu (the Viz translation of that line is: "T-t-time out!! Just a second... please...!!!"*). When Buu charges at him, Goku automatically turns Super Saiyan 3, guards his face and screams "N... NOOO...!!!". Now consider the character of Goku, he loves to fight, fighting is his life; why would he be so terrified of fighting an opponent? If he was at least as strong as Gohan (if not stronger!), then he should be able to put up something of a fight and not be so scared. This isn't the only time, either, when Gotenks defuses and Buu becomes Piccolo-Buu, Goku says "Gohan can handle you now..." -- again, excising himself out of the prospect of fighting Buu. So you have three instances where Goku, someone who loves to fight, is terrified of fighting Super Buu, and does anything he can to avoid it (inside Buu's body, Gotenks Buu and Piccolo Buu).

http://imgur.com/kzcKjpj

That's the face of a man who knows he's about to die.

I actually kind of appreciate playing devil's advocate, hoping that Toriyama wasn't so sloppy to have the heroes forgo an "automatic win." Unfortunately that's not really the case, Toriyama wrote himself into a hole; he wanted a dramatic conclusion that involved Goku, but forgot (or simply ignored) that there were characters much stronger than him. I almost appreciate the anime for buffing up Goku and especially Kid Buu, because it actually helps to make the final fight make more sense. However, there isn't anything in the manga to indicate this, instead it seems to have the opposite message; that Gohan and Super Buu are much stronger than Goku and Kid Buu.

*= I know that the Viz translation isn't infallible, so if some can translate the text to get another meaning, feel free.

[Hitiro]

Yeah... it seems to me that Gohan is definitely at least stronger than SSJ3 Goku. Especially when Goku is "alive" again and his body is even more limited.

But...I don't think the correct question is "How strong are Gohan and Goku SSJ3?", but..."How strong is Kid Buu?" This is the key to really making sense of the arc. In my opinion, Kid Buu has to be > Gohan and SSJ3 Goku. Still...I still don't feel the final battle loses any tension. I always assumed that if Kid Buu wasn't killed right there, then he would have immediately gone on a massive rampage all over the Other World.

I don't know much of Episode 279 "Battle for the Universe Begins" is from the manga. But in one scene, Kid Buu definitely tries to blow-up the Supreme Kai Planet, but fails. I don't think anyone would have ever been able to kill Kid Buu had he left that planet.

If Pure Boo(Kid Boo) was stronger then Gohan then how would Goku be able to beat him at full power in SSJ3?

Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.1-6
Vegeta: “Don’t hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Boo with your ki once you gather it with all your might…!”
Goku: “Ye…yeah…I’ve been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but…I haven’t gotten the chance.”
Vegeta: “Eh?”
Goku: “If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather ki for about one minute.”
Vegeta: “One minute?!”
Goku: “Dammnit~~~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. …..Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this…!”
Vegeta: “…S …So you weren’t thinking of me…”

The fact that Goku says he can do it proves that isn't stronger than Gohan. Considering SSJ3 Goku feels they'd be destroyed by Evil Boo no matter what then Gohan has to be above Pure Boo. Because what you're literally telling me is:

SSJ3 Goku < Evil Boo < Gohan < Pure Boo < SSJ3 Goku

^This pretty much doesn't make sense in the context of dialogue we're given.

[goku the krump dancer]

But... to teleport you have to have a lock-on on someone's ki. That takes maybe 30 seconds of deep concentration. Before this fight, Kid Buu was only teleporting to other planets just because he was tracking the highest power levels he was feeling across the universe in order to find Goku and Vegeta.

Right when Kid Buu is destroying the earth, Goku says that he can't teleport because he's in too much of a hurry to really lock-on someone's ki. So...Kid Buu would never have been able to dodge the Spirit Bomb.

Only the Yardrat teleportation needs you to lock-on. Kid Buu copied Kibitokai's teleportation, which doesn't.

Also that's filler. In the manga Buu immediately teleports to fight them.

There is that panel of Boo looking around then smiling before teleporting, implying that he sensed where they were, it's just that like you said Goku and Vegeta didn't have to power up for that to happen in the manga.

[singsing]

But... to teleport you have to have a lock-on on someone's ki. That takes maybe 30 seconds of deep concentration. Before this fight, Kid Buu was only teleporting to other planets just because he was tracking the highest power levels he was feeling across the universe in order to find Goku and Vegeta.

Right when Kid Buu is destroying the earth, Goku says that he can't teleport because he's in too much of a hurry to really lock-on someone's ki. So...Kid Buu would never have been able to dodge the Spirit Bomb.

Only the Yardrat teleportation needs you to lock-on. Kid Buu copied Kibitokai's teleportation, which doesn't.

Also that's filler. In the manga Buu immediately teleports to fight them.

There is that panel of Boo looking around then smiling before teleporting, implying that he sensed where they were, it's just that like you said Goku and Vegeta didn't have to power up for that to happen in the manga.

Kinda hard to teleport to someone if you don't know where they are. Kibito doesn't need a ki signature to teleport somewhere, but you still needa know where you're going...

[foxfang4]

Yeah I kind of remember Goku saying that they'd get slaughtered after they left Buu's stomach. Do you remember what scene that happened in?

He says it after they separate Gohan and the others from Evil Boo.

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”

That's a pretty damning instance, to be honest, and I have another that might be even more so, in terms of showing the strength discrepancy between Goku and Gohan.

http://imgur.com/lEUBOKT
http://imgur.com/WMKf8JB
http://imgur.com/toR46Xd
http://imgur.com/ZJ7cgUO

Gohan versus Gotenks-Buu is interesting in that Gohan still puts up a pretty decent fight. Don't get me wrong, he ultimately gets his ass handed to him, but its not outright annihilation. Gohan is able to break out of the rings and withstand quite a beating. Contrast that with Goku's reaction at the prospect of fighting Gotenks-Buu. he seems absolutely terrified, at least to me. He start praying, begging Buu (the Viz translation of that line is: "T-t-time out!! Just a second... please...!!!"*). When Buu charges at him, Goku automatically turns Super Saiyan 3, guards his face and screams "N... NOOO...!!!". Now consider the character of Goku, he loves to fight, fighting is his life; why would he be so terrified of fighting an opponent? If he was at least as strong as Gohan (if not stronger!), then he should be able to put up something of a fight and not be so scared. This isn't the only time, either, when Gotenks defuses and Buu becomes Piccolo-Buu, Goku says "Gohan can handle you now..." -- again, excising himself out of the prospect of fighting Buu. So you have three instances where Goku, someone who loves to fight, is terrified of fighting Super Buu, and does anything he can to avoid it (inside Buu's body, Gotenks Buu and Piccolo Buu).

http://imgur.com/kzcKjpj

That's the face of a man who knows he's about to die.

I actually kind of appreciate playing devil's advocate, hoping that Toriyama wasn't so sloppy to have the heroes forgo an "automatic win." Unfortunately that's not really the case, Toriyama wrote himself into a hole; he wanted a dramatic conclusion that involved Goku, but forgot (or simply ignored) that there were characters much stronger than him. I almost appreciate the anime for buffing up Goku and especially Kid Buu, because it actually helps to make the final fight make more sense. However, there isn't anything in the manga to indicate this, instead it seems to have the opposite message; that Gohan and Super Buu are much stronger than Goku and Kid Buu.

*= I know that the Viz translation isn't infallible, so if some can translate the text to get another meaning, feel free.

This is great. Thanks for the scans. And yeah, you're right. There's no way in hell (manga or anime) that SSJ3 Goku is stronger than Gohan. Now, the question remains: Could Gohan have defeated Kid Buu had the Kaioshins brought him?

See, the way they describe Kid Buu leaves a lot to the imagination. Basically, all we know is
a) He's the most dangerous version (due to his personality, lack of reason, and absolute lack of empathy)
b) He now knows how to do Instant Transmission.
c) He seems to regenerate MUCH faster than any Buu before him. (Can anyone confirm if this was the case in the manga? Or, did the anime over exaggerate his regenerative abilities?)

It just seems to me that, unlike Super Buu, Kid Buu would have gotten the hell out of there the second he even spotted Gohan (knowing how strong he is). Had they been on another planet, it's highly probable that Kid Buu would have just blown up whatever planet they were on. Moreover, the only reason he even fought vs. Goku/Vegeta is because he actually had an interest in doing so.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

Rocketman sounds like he's beating a dead horse because he is. The Z team was swimming in backup plans and Goku and Vegeta nearly blew it for the sake of trying to ascertain if this was a Buu they could actually beat, because Goku and Vegeta bonding over a crisis is a darn satisfactory way to end the series. The Spirit Bomb wasn't a bad idea, particularly presuming Vegeta learned it's perk as an anti-evil nuke off-screen, merely an inconvenient one in the face of several more immediate and convenient options.

Though I do enjoy that the Kaioshin planet's being the only suitable battleground by virtue of being made of "tougher stuff", which Old Kai does tell us off-hand, is a nice subversion to Kid Buu's proven habit of actually blowing up planets with no regard for strong guys. Not that it excuses anything.

It just seems to me that, unlike Super Buu, Kid Buu would have gotten the hell out of there the second he even spotted Gohan (knowing how strong he is).

When people refer to Kid Buu's destructive instinct, it is in reference to his "fight" response. While Super Buu's having anything resembling a "flight" response was practically a plot twist. I don't thing we can say.

[mAcChaos]

I always thought part of it was that there was still the danger that Gohan might get absorbed again. Then what would happen?

[Rocketman]

I always thought part of it was that there was still the danger that Gohan might get absorbed again. Then what would happen?

[mAcChaos]

He might not be strong enough.

[Rocketman]

Vegetto utterly dominated a stronger Buu with Gohan absorbed.

[foxfang4]

I always thought part of it was that there was still the danger that Gohan might get absorbed again. Then what would happen?

You guys do realize that the last 2 Potara Earrings in existance (worn by the Supreme Kai/Kibito fusion) were destroyed by Goku and Vegeta in Episode 278? Goku and Vegeta crush them in front of the Old Kaioshin and Supreme Kai when they receive them. There's no way Vegetto could ever exist again at this point.

(And Gogeta could never happen. Goku and Vegeta aren't even similar in size. And, even then, they'd need hours of practice just to get it right.)