What if Kid Buu had won the final battle (consequences?)

[foxfang4]

I feel that Kid Buu wouldn't have survived more than an hour (tops) had he survived the Genki Dama blast and killed everyone on the Kaioshin planet. It seems to me that any of these scenarios would definitely happen:

1. If Goku or Vegeta die, they'll be returned to life in a nano-second.
2. Goku (in Japanese) clearly states (during the battle) that he regrets not using the Potara Earrings vs. Kid Buu. So, once they're revived, the Kaoshins can just hand them the Potara Earrings. With that, Vegetto would make quick work of Kid Buu in probably a few seconds.
3. Even if Vegeta still refuses to use the earrings, Goku and Gohan are 100% committed to using the earrings at this point. So, again, the Goku-Gohan fusion would make short work of Kid Buu.

Am I missing something? It seems to me that the only point of tension during the entire Genki Dama sequence, is the idea that Kid Buu would go on to destroy the entire "after-life world" during the 1-2 hours before the revived Goku, Vegeta & Gohan get back into the battle again.

[fadeddreams5]

4. Gohan alone would make quick work of him.
5. If Gohan can't do it alone, Gotenks can help him.
6. A year later, Beerus wakes up, gets annoyed at Buu for some reason, and vaporizes him.

As I've mentioned before, there was no threat in that entire saga. It was a plot riddled with bad decisions by the main characters, which is what makes the Buu arc so terrible, imo.

[sintzu]

There was no threat in that entire saga. It was a plot riddled with bad decisions by the main characters, which is what makes the Buu arc so terrible, imo.

The decisions they made in the Freeza and Cell arcs weren't much better.

[Rocketman]

Kid Buu kills Goku.

Goku stands back up with a halo and goes SS3 with no limit.

SS3 Goku kills Kid Buu.

Goku gets revived with the "bring back everybody good who died in the past three days" wish.

[fadeddreams5]

There was no threat in that entire saga. It was a plot riddled with bad decisions by the main characters, which is what makes the Buu arc so terrible, imo.

They've decisions they made in the Freeza and Cell arcs weren't much better.

The difference is they actually were overpowered in those two other arcs, besides that one incidence where Vegeta let Cell absorb #18. When Gohan and Krillin landed on Namek, they were overwhelmed. Vegeta could not touch the Ginyu Force. Goku was being toyed around with by Frieza. The whole point of the Cell saga was figuring out a way to beat androids that had already slaughtered them in another timeline.

Buu saga:
- Vegeta gets mid-life crisis that results in the revival of Buu.
- Vegeta knocks Goku out instead of fighting Buu together, which would have led to Buu's defeat.
- SSJ3 Goku decides to not finish Buu off because he wants to give the others a chance.
- Gotenks did not get the job done because he's a total moron.
- Vegito holds back to save his friends that had been absorbed, but then let's them all die anyways when he gets out of Buu.
- Goku destroys the potara earrings that could have been used against Kid Buu.
- Goku holds back to give Vegeta a chance in the battle.
- Vegeta's brilliant plan involves the spirit bomb instead of wishing Gotenks and Gohan to the battlefield.

...yup...only serious fighter seems to have been Gohan.

[Marco Polo]

The consequence is Goku and Vegeta or Goku and Gohan would be stuck together forever.

[Deep Thought]

Some more onto the already impressive list;

8. It's implied that Goku can beat Kid Buu if not for the stamina drain, so use one of the three healers; Kibitokai, Dende and Buu to essentially have the same healing capabilities as Buu and brute force the fight. Perhaps Kibitokai and Buu's healing capabilities are limited (we never see the full extent of them), but we know that Dende can fully restore Goku's stamina, because he did the same to Gohan, a much stronger fighter. Gotenks-Buu stated that Gohan's levels were restored back to full capacity. It really bugs me that Toriyama made a point of bringing Dende over to the Kai world but didn't do anything with him, let alone the others; why not just kill him off if you aren't going to use him?

9. If for some reason none of the three healers can restore Goku, use one of the three wishes from the Namekian Dragon Balls to wish for a pouch full of senzu beans affixed to Goku's hip, then brute force it as mentioned above.

10. Gang up on Kid Buu. This is a viable possibility given that Fat Buu was able to hold his own for a while against Kid Buu and even Vegeta was able to damage him a bit. Their extra firepower would be an aid for Super Saiyan 3 Goku, and just what they need to tip the scales, especially since Fat Buu's candy ray is a one hit kill and Kid Buu could be distracted by Goku.

11. If for some reason you can't use the potara as mentioned in #2 and #3, use the fusion dance with either Vegeta or Gohan. Fat Buu would buy them more than enough time for Goku to teach it, though this admittedly does have the problem of the fusion dance potentially being done wrong.

The Buu Arc has its ups and downs and this is definitely the lowest point, easily the most contrived fight in the series. It forces the Spirit Bomb ending at the expense of everything else, and while fans can maybe think of explanations for all of these reasons if they try hard enough, its still hard to deny that these problems ruin the underlying reason for the Spirit Bomb being a last resort, from a narrative perspective. They used the Spirit Bomb against Vegeta because they had no other options. Same with Freeza, the breadth of his massive power was simply too big to overcome and Goku had no choice but to use it. This fails apart when you have three healers, a set of wish granting balls, fusion and two fighters stronger than you (Gohan and Gotenks), and you're almost strong enough to beat him yourself. Those are options.

In short, the Kid Buu fight is just junk, it was clear Toriyama wanted to finish the series and wanted to craft a dramatic conclusion but didn't think it fully through, creating a fight that lacks tension, and you don't want that for a final fight.

The consequence is Goku and Vegeta or Goku and Gohan would be stuck together forever.

Couldn't the Dragon Balls defuse them? I have to imagine that its not beyond the scope of the Dragon, if both fusees/the fusion consent to being defused.

[DBZAOTA482]

There was no threat in that entire saga. It was a plot riddled with bad decisions by the main characters, which is what makes the Buu arc so terrible, imo.

The decisions they made in the Freeza and Cell arcs weren't much better.

There were only three dumb/irrational ones in the Freeza Sagas with two of them being plot-induced, and almost all of the dumb/irrational ones in the Cell Saga later into the arc but a good chunk of them were from the villains playing mindgames with the heroes and Vegeta. The Majin Boo Saga's plot practically nothing but dumb/irrational decisions after Vegeta's sacrifice.

[mAcChaos]

Kid Buu kills Goku.

Goku stands back up with a halo and goes SS3 with no limit.

SS3 Goku kills Kid Buu.

Goku gets revived with the "bring back everybody good who died in the past three days" wish.

Dying wouldn't replenish his energy.

Also, you guys are ignoring the character's motivations. These fights aren't supposed to be conducted like chess matches between machines. They all have personalities and goals that influence their decisions. Like Vegeta sparing Cell is totally understandable and makes complete sense.

For Kid Buu, Toriyama just had to make things more desperate; kill off Dende, take away their healers and other options, then they'd have no choice but to rely on the Spirit Bomb. Although even that fight was the result of character motivations: Vegeta and Goku wanting to have a fair fight.

[foxfang4]

K. I'll play devil's advocate here: In the original/Japanese version, they strongly confirm that Kid Buu basically cannot be killed in a regular way. And that he's WAY more powerful than Super Buu. He's basically the first truly immortal character in the series with infinite regenerative abilities.

So, you can't "beat him up", you can't really blow him up. You have to hit him with something so powerful that he can never regenerate again. (This idea was first thought of by Vegeta before he kills himself).

So, looking at the options, from the episodes that I just saw:
1. Gotenks could barely hold his own vs. Super-Buu. So he's wouldn't be able to do much vs. Kid Buu.
2. Oddly, during the Kid Buu fight, they imply that Goku SSJ3 and Gohan are basically interchangeable. And Goku gets completely outclassed vs. Kid Buu. So, Gohan as an option is out. (Other than Goku saying : "damn! Gohan's so strong now!", they never explicitly say: "Gohan is the most powerful fighter in the universe" in the manga or anime.
3. The healers: The healers only seem relevant during the Genki Dama struggle. Before that, it seems kind of useless to heal 2 fighters who have no chance of winning the fight not matter how many times they try.

So, really, the Genki Dama is the only thing that could kill him off for good. In the Japanese version (oddly, not in the FUNI dub), they state how Kid Buu loves to drag out fights since he knows he can just tire his opponents out. Other than that, it seems that only a Gohan-Goku fusion could have absolutely finished Buu off.

[fadeddreams5]

K. I'll play devil's advocate here: In the original/Japanese version, they strongly confirm that Kid Buu basically cannot be killed in a regular way. And that he's WAY more powerful than Super Buu. He's basically the first truly immortal character in the series with infinite regenerative abilities.

Where was this implied, let alone confirmed? IIRC, Vegeta actually underestimates Kid Buu, believing he had grown weaker.

So, you can't "beat him up"

idk. Kid Buu beat the crap out of Fat Buu to the point where he couldn't fight anymore. And Gohan was doing the same to Super Buu.

Oddly, during the Kid Buu fight, they imply that Goku SSJ3 and Gohan are basically interchangeable. And Goku gets completely outclassed vs. Kid Buu. So, Gohan as an option is out. (Other than Goku saying : "damn! Gohan's so strong now!", they never explicitly say: "Gohan is the most powerful fighter in the universe" in the manga or anime.

Didn't Toriyama say Gohan was the strongest unfused fighter in DBZ at that point? Besides, even if it's not mentioned in the manga, you can pretty much see it for yourself when you compare fights. Goku implies Gotenks is stronger or more adept than him as a SSJ3. Gotenks fights evenly with Super Buu. Gohan wrecks Super Buu in a one-sided showdown. Goku actually has a slight upper hand against Kid Buu, but holds back, making them on par with one another until Goku's stamina gives in.

[foxfang4]

K. I'll play devil's advocate here: In the original/Japanese version, they strongly confirm that Kid Buu basically cannot be killed in a regular way. And that he's WAY more powerful than Super Buu. He's basically the first truly immortal character in the series with infinite regenerative abilities.

Where was this implied, let alone confirmed? IIRC, Vegeta actually underestimates Kid Buu, believing he had grown weaker.

So, you can't "beat him up"

idk. Kid Buu beat the crap out of Fat Buu to the point where he couldn't fight anymore. And Gohan was doing the same to Super Buu.

Oddly, during the Kid Buu fight, they imply that Goku SSJ3 and Gohan are basically interchangeable. And Goku gets completely outclassed vs. Kid Buu. So, Gohan as an option is out. (Other than Goku saying : "damn! Gohan's so strong now!", they never explicitly say: "Gohan is the most powerful fighter in the universe" in the manga or anime.

Didn't Toriyama say Gohan was the strongest unfused fighter in DBZ at that point? Besides, even if it's not mentioned in the manga, you can pretty much see it for yourself when you compare fights. Goku implies Gotenks is stronger or more adept than him as a SSJ3. Gotenks fights evenly with Super Buu. Gohan wrecks Super Buu in a one-sided showdown. Goku actually has a slight upper hand against Kid Buu, but holds back, making them on par with one another until Goku's stamina gives in.

Great points there. I'll try to answer some of your questions. BTW, this is strictly the Japanese version because the English version changes a large # of important plot points.

#1. Where was this implied, let alone confirmed? IIRC, Vegeta actually underestimates Kid Buu, believing he had grown weaker.
Answer: That was before he got a chance to fight him. During the fight, they both realize that Kid Buu is outrageously powerful. Way more than they had imagined he would be (they mention that many times). It's clear in the dialogue and also in the way the fight plays out.

#2. idk. Kid Buu beat the crap out of Fat Buu to the point where he couldn't fight anymore. And Gohan was doing the same to Super Buu.
Answer: In the Japanese version (only, I'm baffled as to why the English version changes the dialogue), Piccolo explains that basically 100% of Fat Buu's "ferocious ki" (IE: power) was transferred over to the "Negative/Thin Buu". So Fat Buu is a shell of his former self from this point on in the series. He can't even regenerate at the rate of Super Buu (+ the other versions of him).

#3. Didn't Toriyama say Gohan was the strongest unfused fighter in DBZ at that point? Besides, even if it's not mentioned in the manga, you can pretty much see it for yourself when you compare fights. Goku implies Gotenks is stronger or more adept than him as a SSJ3.
Answer: I'm pretty sure that Goku saying that was only in the English dub. In the Japanese dub, he's basically surprised at how strong Gotenks is. But never says "He's more powerful than me."
In fact, Goku saying he 100% thought he could beat Fat Buu (at his strongest) implies he was at least as capable as Gotenks. His performance shows he's way more capable than him.

#4. Gotenks fights evenly with Super Buu. Gohan wrecks Super Buu in a one-sided showdown. Goku actually has a slight upper hand against Kid Buu, but holds back, making them on par with one another until Goku's stamina gives in.
Answer: You're right. Gotenks fights evenly with Super Buu. But Super Buu (in the Japanese version) admits to Gohan that he was basically playing with Gotenks and not killing him because he wanted to absorb him later. I'm 90% sure the English version doesn't say this (again, strange writing decision). True, Gohan wrecks Super Buu. But, Kid Buu is much more powerful than Super Buu. In the English version they sort of downplay that for some reason. And Goku doesn't really go toe to toe with Kid Buu. Sure, he lands a few punches, but Kid Buu basically toys with Goku the entire fight. Like, I had never noticed how much until I recently saw it. Goku's desperation Kamehameha (which takes place almost immediately once the fight starts) is the moment where Goku realizes Buu is out of his league.


#5. Didn't Toriyama say Gohan was the strongest unfused fighter in DBZ at that point?
Yeah, I remember reading that in some translated interview a long time ago. But, I'm just basing it on the actual source material. I think that idea was quickly abandoned after Gohan was absorbed. It's a bit strange (and I'm not putting much weight into this) to mention "Battle of Gods" with something that was written in the mid 1990s. But, in that film, 'Ultimate Gohan' is shown to be weaker than Goku SSJ3 and Vegeta SSJ2. He gets beaten in under 2 seconds. At least Goku lasted 1 minute. Like I said, I'm not putting much weight into "Battle of Gods", but it's the only canon material we have that allows us to see how strong Gohan really is in that state.

[Rocketman]

Vegetto beat Gohan-Buu so badly his regeneration was failing.

[Lord Beerus]

Vegetto beat Gohan-Buu so badly his regeneration was failing.

That sums up the backwards ass, inconsistent, fucked up logic of the Majin Boo arc.

[foxfang4]

Vegetto beat Gohan-Buu so badly his regeneration was failing.

That sums up the backwards ass, inconsistent, fucked up logic of the Majin Boo arc.

haha . In all honestly, I forgot how much I enjoyed the arc. Like, if you think about it it's kind of a mind ####. But, I've been watching it with my young nephew and I forgot how exciting, funny and genuinely unpredictable it is. I think Toriyama just said "let's go CRAZY with this one". It's still a great piece of entertainment.

Having said that, I thought Buu regenerating slowly (due to the damage inflicted by Vegetto) made sense every time I saw it. Shows he's immortal, but there are limits when faced against such an overwhelming force.

[fadeddreams5]

Man, so much made-up dialogue in English dub. I tend to forget.

[Rocketman]

I think it's funny people are bashing the dub in this thread when all of the evidence they're calling on is anime-only and just as inaccurate to the original story.

[Hitiro]

#1. Where was this implied, let alone confirmed? IIRC, Vegeta actually underestimates Kid Buu, believing he had grown weaker.
Answer: That was before he got a chance to fight him. During the fight, they both realize that Kid Buu is outrageously powerful. Way more than they had imagined he would be (they mention that many times). It's clear in the dialogue and also in the way the fight plays out.

We have a statement from Goku saying that at his full power he could kill Pure Boo(Kid Boo). And nothing ever disagrees with this statement. Vegeta even tells Goku to go all out and finish it but Goku tells us that he's been trying but he hasn't had a chance to get to full power.

#2. idk. Kid Buu beat the crap out of Fat Buu to the point where he couldn't fight anymore. And Gohan was doing the same to Super Buu.
Answer: In the Japanese version (only, I'm baffled as to why the English version changes the dialogue), Piccolo explains that basically 100% of Fat Buu's "ferocious ki" (IE: power) was transferred over to the "Negative/Thin Buu". So Fat Buu is a shell of his former self from this point on in the series. He can't even regenerate at the rate of Super Buu (+ the other versions of him).

Vegeta says in the Japanese version of the manga that if it's Boo versus Boo they can take damage.

#3. Didn't Toriyama say Gohan was the strongest unfused fighter in DBZ at that point? Besides, even if it's not mentioned in the manga, you can pretty much see it for yourself when you compare fights. Goku implies Gotenks is stronger or more adept than him as a SSJ3.
Answer: I'm pretty sure that Goku saying that was only in the English dub. In the Japanese dub, he's basically surprised at how strong Gotenks is. But never says "He's more powerful than me."
In fact, Goku saying he 100% thought he could beat Fat Buu (at his strongest) implies he was at least as capable as Gotenks. His performance shows he's way more capable than him.

Goku says that Gotenks would be able to beat Fat Boo. As far as we're aware Goku intended for them to fight as a SSJ fusion against Fat Boo. The fact that Goku thinks that SSJ Gotenks can handle Fat Boo, even if you assume SSJ Gotenks is weaker than SSJ3 Goku, would still put SSJ3 Gotenks above SSJ3 Goku. Because the pecking order would be:

-Unfused SSJ's.
-Unfused SSJ2's.
-Fat Boo.
-SSJ Gotenks.
-SSJ3 Goku.
-SSJ3 Gotenks.

The only way for Goku to be above SSJ3 Gotenks would be if Goku could handle Fat Boo as a SSJ. Because as far as we're aware the fusions get the same SSJ multipliers as unfused Saiyan's. Unless we're told differently then it can only be a baseless opinion. I mean even if we assume SSJ Gotenks couldn't handle Fat Boo, which is unlikely because the manga never suggests so when he fuses as a SSJ, the bare minimum Gotenks would need to be for Piccolo to be okay with sending him to battle Fat Boo is SSJ2 Vegeta-level which. As Goku said, is on par with his SSJ2 self. Going by that and the SSJ multipliers SSJ3 Gotenks would be twice as strong as SSJ3 Goku.

#4. Gotenks fights evenly with Super Buu. Gohan wrecks Super Buu in a one-sided showdown. Goku actually has a slight upper hand against Kid Buu, but holds back, making them on par with one another until Goku's stamina gives in.
Answer: You're right. Gotenks fights evenly with Super Buu. But Super Buu (in the Japanese version) admits to Gohan that he was basically playing with Gotenks and not killing him because he wanted to absorb him later. I'm 90% sure the English version doesn't say this (again, strange writing decision). True, Gohan wrecks Super Buu. But, Kid Buu is much more powerful than Super Buu. In the English version they sort of downplay that for some reason. And Goku doesn't really go toe to toe with Kid Buu. Sure, he lands a few punches, but Kid Buu basically toys with Goku the entire fight. Like, I had never noticed how much until I recently saw it. Goku's desperation Kamehameha (which takes place almost immediately once the fight starts) is the moment where Goku realizes Buu is out of his league.

Evil Boo(Super Boo) was about to be obliterated before the fusion wore off. Do you actually read Japanese? Because I don't think Evil Boo says that he wasn't trying against Gotenks. All we know him saying is that he couldn't allow Gohan, who was more powerful than him, to exist. He could have easily left the kids alive after the fusion wore off for them to fuse and for him to absorb them. Piccolo even says that Evil Boo's pride has been damaged because there is someone on par with his power in the Japanese manga.

#5. Didn't Toriyama say Gohan was the strongest unfused fighter in DBZ at that point?
Yeah, I remember reading that in some translated interview a long time ago. But, I'm just basing it on the actual source material. I think that idea was quickly abandoned after Gohan was absorbed. It's a bit strange (and I'm not putting much weight into this) to mention "Battle of Gods" with something that was written in the mid 1990s. But, in that film, 'Ultimate Gohan' is shown to be weaker than Goku SSJ3 and Vegeta SSJ2. He gets beaten in under 2 seconds. At least Goku lasted 1 minute. Like I said, I'm not putting much weight into "Battle of Gods", but it's the only canon material we have that allows us to see how strong Gohan really is in that state.

I don't think it's fair to put Goku above Gohan merely because he lasted longer. Because Goku only lasted as long as he did due to Beerus not going on the offensive. Considering how powerful Beerus is we can't gauge how much he suppressed against Goku compared to Gohan either. I'm not saying Goku couldn't be stronger than Gohan by this time. But I don't think it's as easy as "Goku lasted longer so he must be stronger."

[In Brightest Day]

I don't think it's fair to put Goku above Gohan merely because he lasted longer. Because Goku only lasted as long as he did due to Beerus not going on the offensive. Considering how powerful Beerus is we can't gauge how much he suppressed against Goku compared to Gohan either. I'm not saying Goku couldn't be stronger than Gohan by this time. But I don't think it's as easy as "Goku lasted longer so he must be stronger."

Not to mention, Gohan managed to sneak up on Beerus and put him in a full-nelson. He was also defeated by a kick to the gut. Definitely more impressive than what SSJ3 Goku accomplished against Beerus.

[GokuRules987]

4. Gohan alone would make quick work of him.
5. If Gohan can't do it alone, Gotenks can help him.
6. A year later, Beerus wakes up, gets annoyed at Buu for some reason, and vaporizes him.

As I've mentioned before, there was no threat in that entire saga. It was a plot riddled with bad decisions by the main characters, which is what makes the Buu arc so terrible, imo.

buu arc was controlled by 99 percent plot. mystic gohan failing to catch a potara eearing even though he can dodge goten rocks flying at speed of light and machine gun bullets with ease.