Gohan thinks he can still become a Super Saiyan

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Re: Gohan thinks he can still become a Super Saiyan

Post by Nad45 » Sat Feb 28, 2015 11:25 am

Gohan also said that everybody will need to fight at full power, that's why he's thinking about SSJ, to become even stronger
Does it mean that he will be "SSJ mystic" or only SSJ (in Gohan's case, only as strong as Dabura)?
In "Mystic" he's stronger than SSJ3, so in "SSJ mystic" he should be very powerfull

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Re: Gohan thinks he can still become a Super Saiyan

Post by 90sDBZ » Sat Feb 28, 2015 11:57 am

Could it be that he transforms in the new movie simply to scare Frieza?

Also in GT I think some people go by the theory that Gohan actually trained and got so much stronger that his potential reset and was able to unlock stronger versions of Super Saiyan 1 and 2 aka Mystic Super Saiyan. He even looks Mystic a lot of the time in GT, like when he fights Baby Goten before going Super Saiyan. We know for a fact that hidden potential can increase. For example, Gohan had his potential released by Guru on Namek and then again by Old Kai. Perhaps that's also the case in the new movie.

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Re: Gohan thinks he can still become a Super Saiyan

Post by NitroEX » Sat Feb 28, 2015 12:07 pm

Nad45 wrote:Gohan also said that everybody will need to fight at full power, that's why he's thinking about SSJ, to become even stronger
Does it mean that he will be "SSJ mystic" or only SSJ (in Gohan's case, only as strong as Dabura)?
In "Mystic" he's stronger than SSJ3, so in "SSJ mystic" he should be very powerfull
That doesn't make sense. There's a reason he never went Super Saiyan against Buutenks, because it was a redundant transformation at that point and would only serve to drain his energy.

People are bending over backwards to justify this but I don't see why we can't just call it what it is. I get that there are people who dislike Gohan for whatever reason but surely you can see the blatant B.S that's going on here. If they were doing this type of thing to Vegeta, casually pushing him to the side and stripping him of abilities people would be up in arms crying foul but because it's Gohan who we don't care about everyone's like "Meh, he doesn't train anymore, he's useless now".

Maybe in the movie they'll have a decent explanation for it but as of right now it just seems like Gohan being the strongest unfused character in the Buu arc was simply an inconvenience for the creators. They wanted to tell a Goku story (because Goku=money) but rather than simply having Gohan be absent from the events of the movie (which is very plausible as he's a working adult now) or being badly injured by the new villain they just throw him in there and nerf him a bit because why bother being creative?

It might just be ignorance on their part but due to the fact that they tried to correct the mistake in BoG I'de say they're well aware of the Mystic transformation so the whole thing just comes across as negligent and borderline malicious to me.

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Re: Gohan thinks he can still become a Super Saiyan

Post by lord turbo » Sat Feb 28, 2015 3:55 pm

Edit: wrong thread.
Last edited by lord turbo on Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Gohan thinks he can still become a Super Saiyan

Post by DieHard » Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:07 pm

it makes perfect sense.toriyama also made gohan transform in gt. mystic gohan base form is stronger,but during the boo saga they are so strong that ssj doesnt increase power level too much so he could not defeat boo

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Re: Gohan thinks he can still become a Super Saiyan

Post by singsing » Sat Feb 28, 2015 8:07 pm

DieHard wrote:it makes perfect sense.toriyama also made gohan transform in gt. mystic gohan base form is stronger,but during the boo saga they are so strong that ssj doesnt increase power level too much so he could not defeat boo
Toriyama didn't do shit to Gohan in GT. It was Toei anime.

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Re: Gohan thinks he can still become a Super Saiyan

Post by Tsufuru » Sun Mar 01, 2015 12:47 am

does he mean, he dont know if he can turn ssj at all?
and who said it does have anything to do with mystic form gohan?

even though in BoG he turned ssj for the ritual i think after more years of slacking he doesnt know how powerfull he is himself.

i mean sure after seven years he still could turn ssj in the buu saga but think about it in the buu saga gohan barely trained so these years should be added to the 7 years of slacking.

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Re: Gohan thinks he can still become a Super Saiyan

Post by Hugo Boss » Sun Mar 01, 2015 12:57 pm

Tsufuru wrote:I mean sure after seven years he still could turn ssj in the buu saga but think about it in the buu saga gohan barely trained so these years should be added to the 7 years of slacking.
Actually, this Gohan seems like a refresh of his Great Saiyaman Saga self. Maybe even Goten or Trunks alone could give trouble to him.

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Re: Gohan thinks he can still become a Super Saiyan

Post by Sanity's_Theif » Tue Mar 03, 2015 6:57 pm

I'm just happy to see Goku and Vegeta stronger than Gohan again, never liked Gohan much to begin with lol

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Re: Gohan thinks he can still become a Super Saiyan

Post by fadeddreams5 » Tue Mar 03, 2015 7:30 pm

I love how some people are coming up with in-universe reasons for him not being able to go ultimate, and justifying them by asking things like "how do you expect him to train if he's a father and scholar?!"

lmao. Come on, guys.
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Re: Gohan thinks he can still become a Super Saiyan

Post by VegettoEX » Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:12 am

fadeddreams5 wrote:I love how some people are coming up with in-universe reasons for him not being able to go ultimate, and justifying them by asking things like "how do you expect him to train if he's a father and scholar?!"

lmao. Come on, guys.
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Re: Gohan thinks he can still become a Super Saiyan

Post by Bussani » Fri Mar 06, 2015 1:17 am

Cetra wrote:It has been a power up/transformation ever since. Gohan powers up in Kaiohshin realm and then again right in Boo's face. He does not always have the same power. Piccolo could not even think of Gohan having a chance before he used the BAM! Ultimate Gohan! Shockwave! Power up! on earth. In the movies he also powers up and he constantls changes his facial expression. Especially consistency about how something is drawn is not the greatest argument in Dragon Ball. And obviously Gohan has trained for Super Saiyajin again. This by the way fits perfectly with the Dragon Ball GT explanation in which he has trained.
But what the old Kaioshin said when Gohan finished the ritual outright explained that it wasn't a transformation, didn't it?
Chapter: 496 (DBZ 302), P7.2-3
Context: after Gohan transforms into the ‘mightiest of warriors’
Goku: “It re-really is incredible…It’s super-duper…! Absolutely unbelievable…Your appearance has hardly changed…And you ain’t even a Super Saiyan…Yet you’ve been taken to su-such an extreme…”
Elder Kaioshin: “Hmph, transforming isn’t good. That Super whatever-its-called is the wrong way [of doing things]…”
I thought that was cool and a good direction to go in, so it's disappointing for it to suddenly be treated as just another transformation after all. I mean, it's not going to spoil the movie for me, but it's interesting to point out, you know?

Also, I don't think that Gohan stopped being "Ultimate" just because he powered down, much the same as how Super Saiyan Goku was still a Super Saiyan when he left the Room of Spirit and Time, even though he was powered down.

Also also, as we see in the quote above, Goku says that Gohan's appearance "barely changed", calling attention to the fact that his hair and eyes did look a little bit different, and they stayed that way for the remainder of the manga. It's the anime that seems to have him switch back and forth between the two.
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Re: Gohan thinks he can still become a Super Saiyan

Post by Cetra » Fri Mar 06, 2015 10:30 am

Bussani wrote:
Cetra wrote:It has been a power up/transformation ever since. Gohan powers up in Kaiohshin realm and then again right in Boo's face. He does not always have the same power. Piccolo could not even think of Gohan having a chance before he used the BAM! Ultimate Gohan! Shockwave! Power up! on earth. In the movies he also powers up and he constantls changes his facial expression. Especially consistency about how something is drawn is not the greatest argument in Dragon Ball. And obviously Gohan has trained for Super Saiyajin again. This by the way fits perfectly with the Dragon Ball GT explanation in which he has trained.
But what the old Kaioshin said when Gohan finished the ritual outright explained that it wasn't a transformation, didn't it?
Chapter: 496 (DBZ 302), P7.2-3
Context: after Gohan transforms into the ‘mightiest of warriors’
Goku: “It re-really is incredible…It’s super-duper…! Absolutely unbelievable…Your appearance has hardly changed…And you ain’t even a Super Saiyan…Yet you’ve been taken to su-such an extreme…”
Elder Kaioshin: “Hmph, transforming isn’t good. That Super whatever-its-called is the wrong way [of doing things]…”
I thought that was cool and a good direction to go in, so it's disappointing for it to suddenly be treated as just another transformation after all. I mean, it's not going to spoil the movie for me, but it's interesting to point out, you know?

Also, I don't think that Gohan stopped being "Ultimate" just because he powered down, much the same as how Super Saiyan Goku was still a Super Saiyan when he left the Room of Spirit and Time, even though he was powered down.

Also also, as we see in the quote above, Goku says that Gohan's appearance "barely changed", calling attention to the fact that his hair and eyes did look a little bit different, and they stayed that way for the remainder of the manga. It's the anime that seems to have him switch back and forth between the two.
It explained that it was not the same kind of transformation SJJ was, even though he did do pretty much the same thing. It does not mean he is in a permanent state. Him powering up to reach this level for Boo or Hildegarn or Beerus shows that. Except it was just for style but that would only be an assumption. As said, I used "power-up/transformation". And if it just changes his appearance a bit it can be called a transformation anyway. Just like Super Saiyajin God is also a transformation. I don't disagree that Gohan might have gotten a higher base power but that does not change that really going Ultimate makes a difference. Just like Goku has the Super Saiyajin God power and yet transformed into the pure form of it still. And you know, Goku might not have noticed much, but Piccolo and Tenshinhan did- well Tenshinhan might not be the best example as he has not seen him for a long time but Piccolo even thought it was Goku. Gohan's hai changed and he did appear less soft.
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Re: Gohan thinks he can still become a Super Saiyan

Post by Saiga » Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:18 am

Bussani wrote: But what the old Kaioshin said when Gohan finished the ritual outright explained that it wasn't a transformation, didn't it?
Chapter: 496 (DBZ 302), P7.2-3
Context: after Gohan transforms into the ‘mightiest of warriors’
Goku: “It re-really is incredible…It’s super-duper…! Absolutely unbelievable…Your appearance has hardly changed…And you ain’t even a Super Saiyan…Yet you’ve been taken to su-such an extreme…”
Elder Kaioshin: “Hmph, transforming isn’t good. That Super whatever-its-called is the wrong way [of doing things]…”
I thought that was cool and a good direction to go in, so it's disappointing for it to suddenly be treated as just another transformation after all. I mean, it's not going to spoil the movie for me, but it's interesting to point out, you know?

Also, I don't think that Gohan stopped being "Ultimate" just because he powered down, much the same as how Super Saiyan Goku was still a Super Saiyan when he left the Room of Spirit and Time, even though he was powered down.

Also also, as we see in the quote above, Goku says that Gohan's appearance "barely changed", calling attention to the fact that his hair and eyes did look a little bit different, and they stayed that way for the remainder of the manga. It's the anime that seems to have him switch back and forth between the two.
Bussani! I haven't seen you around in quite some time.

I agree that Gohan's state was an interesting direction to go in, which is why all the explanations for why he's a Super Saiyan don't cut it for me... sure, the movie could address it, or fans will come up with their reasons why it is that way and argue it didn't need to be explained, but... it's still no good to me. While I do have a problem with these things happening without explanation, that's not the core of it.

The biggest issue is that Gohan went in an interesting direction, and it looks like new material will just drop it. That's what I, personally, have an issue with. It doesn't matter if it gets addressed or explained because the change didn't need to happen in the first place.
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Re: Gohan thinks he can still become a Super Saiyan

Post by dbzfan7 » Fri Mar 06, 2015 3:46 pm

Saiga wrote:The biggest issue is that Gohan went in an interesting direction, and it looks like new material will just drop it. That's what I, personally, have an issue with. It doesn't matter if it gets addressed or explained because the change didn't need to happen in the first place.
They didn't drop it, worse. They handed it over to Ultimate Goku and Vegeta. The made Gohan an SSJ so people wouldn't get confused and think he was anything special like those 2.
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Re: Gohan thinks he can still become a Super Saiyan

Post by ZazamPow » Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:26 pm

Gohan fans be mad as hell.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:I swear, the Gohan fanboys won't be happy unless he just bends over and farts all of Freeza's men into the sun.
fadeddreams5 wrote: Honestly, this would only make me slightly satisfied. To make me happy, he'd also have to grab Freeza by the tail, drag him to the nearest toilet, and give him swirlies until he submits and calls him "daddy."

Gohan deserves it.

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Re: Gohan thinks he can still become a Super Saiyan

Post by ulisa » Wed Mar 11, 2015 1:18 am

I'm well aware that this is probably the Gohan fan in me trying to justify it but what the hell...

I actually like the idea that Ultimate Gohan can achieve more power by transforming, if only for the purpose that I don't think Elder Kai knows everything. Granted, he states that transforming doesn't really do anything but I also get the impression that Saiyans/Half-Saiyans are different than the other races he has interacted with before. Maybe there is a way to press beyond even the power that Elder Kai unlocked. *shrugs* Like I said, I am well aware that this is probably the Gohan fan in me trying to justify things but I like the idea that Saiyans are always finding new ways to press beyond their current limits. I mean, they pretty much shatter any supposed limits throughout the whole series, going from Super Saiyan to 2, 3 and now Super Saiyan God (and Super Saiyan 4 if you count GT) so I don't think the idea that Gohan could find a way beyond the 'Ultimate' power is too ridiculous.
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Re: Gohan thinks he can still become a Super Saiyan

Post by singsing » Wed Mar 11, 2015 1:27 am

ulisa wrote:I'm well aware that this is probably the Gohan fan in me trying to justify it but what the hell...

I actually like the idea that Ultimate Gohan can achieve more power by transforming, if only for the purpose that I don't think Elder Kai knows everything. Granted, he states that transforming doesn't really do anything but I also get the impression that Saiyans/Half-Saiyans are different than the other races he has interacted with before. Maybe there is a way to press beyond even the power that Elder Kai unlocked. *shrugs* Like I said, I am well aware that this is probably the Gohan fan in me trying to justify things but I like the idea that Saiyans are always finding new ways to press beyond their current limits. I mean, they pretty much shatter any supposed limits throughout the whole series, going from Super Saiyan to 2, 3 and now Super Saiyan God (and Super Saiyan 4 if you count GT) so I don't think the idea that Gohan could find a way beyond the 'Ultimate' power is too ridiculous.
But if he was actually accessing a power 50x more than his already ridiculous potential powerup, then holyyy shit that's worth a couple movies by itself.

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Re: Gohan thinks he can still become a Super Saiyan

Post by Regarder » Wed Mar 11, 2015 2:07 am

Rocketman wrote:Except none of that is WHY he lost it. He's lost it because it makes Goku look bad. He's lost it to shove him out of the way because it's Goku Time, motherfuckers, and if you don't like Goku dick slapping your tonsils you best get out now.

Anything else is after-the-fact rationalization to pretend like it's not to suck Goku off.

But thing that really gets me is how unnecessary changing it is for those purposes. Yeah, they wanted Goku to be stronger, but Goku got the God ritual, so he is stronger than Ultimate anyway. The form, however strong it is compared to other characters, should be Gohan's thing. I thought they'd realized they'd made a mistake when they changed the animation in BOG because fans pointed it out (Japanese fans too), but now they are ignoring even that movie, so it's even weirder.

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Re: Gohan thinks he can still become a Super Saiyan

Post by Hitiro » Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:58 pm

Bussani wrote:I thought that was cool and a good direction to go in, so it's disappointing for it to suddenly be treated as just another transformation after all. I mean, it's not going to spoil the movie for me, but it's interesting to point out, you know?

Also, I don't think that Gohan stopped being "Ultimate" just because he powered down, much the same as how Super Saiyan Goku was still a Super Saiyan when he left the Room of Spirit and Time, even though he was powered down.

Also also, as we see in the quote above, Goku says that Gohan's appearance "barely changed", calling attention to the fact that his hair and eyes did look a little bit different, and they stayed that way for the remainder of the manga. It's the anime that seems to have him switch back and forth between the two.
Well, couldn't you just treat it as a power-up rather than an actual transformation? It's clear that actual transformations are bad for the user. But Gohan is pretty much only powering up with his Ultimate form. While there is a slight difference in his appearance the same could be said for Kaioken for Goku, that isn't a transformation. It is just a technique to give him a power-up.

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