Who are the top 5 possible strongest characters?

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Re: Who are the top 5 possible strongest characters?

Post by Saiga » Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:20 am

Rocketman wrote:
Saiga wrote:Well, GT might've already done that by having Goku be stronger than Vegetto.
GT Goku's not stronger than Vegetto, though. SS4 Goku is AT BEST roughly equal to Super Vegetto's fuckin' around level against Gohan-Buu.
That's not the at best. He's possibly weaker than that level, in the Baby arc.

Which is absolutely pathetic compared to any later GT power levels, given how ridiculous the inflation is.

Goku legitimately ends up so strong Omega can't hurt his base form. At all. It's bullshit, but it's GT.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!

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Re: Who are the top 5 possible strongest characters?

Post by Hitiro » Thu Mar 26, 2015 11:15 am

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:
Further to support the argument. Vegeta wondered whether he had surpassed Gohan during the 7 years of peace time. Why would he wonder this if he could sense his own Ki?
Because he didn't know how weak Gohan had become yet.
Regardless, he couldn't compare himself to Gohan until later in the manga when he could be sure.
SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:
There would be a reason for him to do this. Because Vegetto's power doesn't exist any more. I can claim to be the greatest boxer in the world if the person who was once the greatest is gone now. Because if that person is gone he can't be the greatest any more.
Nope, Super Baby 1 says "I have now obtained the greatest of Saiyan power!"

Only when he transforms has he "now" obtained the greatest of Saiyan power, meaning he didn't have the greatest Saiyan power prior to transforming.
Because that title probably was still Goku's?
SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Yet prior to transforming, he was already stronger than Goku, who was stronger than everyother alive Saiyan at the time.
Sorry, but you honestly can't prove that. Goku was SSJ3 for all but a few seconds. After that he reverted and was beaten.
SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Thus leaving the only person to be surpassed Super Vegetto.
No, because like I said above SSJ3 Goku could still be above him in terms of power. He just never got a chance to demonstrate it because he couldn't maintain the form.
SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:You can ignore Goku's comment but you can't ignore Baby-Vegeta saying "I have now obtained the of greatest Saiyan power!"
I've not ignored it. I've given an explanation on why he said that.

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Re: Who are the top 5 possible strongest characters?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:07 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Who said this rule applies every time?
Who said it doesn't apply this time?
Janemba being the strongest ki ever is contradicted by Goku stomping him.
Goku is obviously not counting himself, so no, it isn't contradicted.
Super Baby 1 being the strongest ki ever is never contradicted.
It is contradicted by the statement that places Boo arc SS Vegetto at at least Evil Dragons arc SS4 Goku's level.
Why is that? They're certainly not the same person.
Vegetto is partially Goku. The DBox GT Dragon Book even counts Gogeta & Vegetto as different versions of Goku.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Who are the top 5 possible strongest characters?

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:24 pm

Regardless, he couldn't compare himself to Gohan until later in the manga when he could be sure.
Because he didn't know how strong Gohan was at the time. He can't compare himself to someone if he doesn't know their strength.

In fact, later on after seeing Gohan transform at the Budokai and actually sensing Gohan's power, Vegeta says he is stronger than Gohan. If Vegeta couldn't know his own power, how is he able to tell?
Because that title probably was still Goku's?
Sorry, but you honestly can't prove that. Goku was SSJ3 for all but a few seconds. After that he reverted and was beaten.
No, because like I said above SSJ3 Goku could still be above him in terms of power. He just never got a chance to demonstrate it because he couldn't maintain the form.
Except no. Goku was not above Baby-Vegeta.

Goku landed one hit on Vegeta which did no damage, and Vegeta smiles it off. Goku then says Vegeta is more than an even match for himself, Goku rushes at him, there's a few flashes, then it shows Goku rushing at Vegeta to hit him, and Vegeta blocks it and punches Goku, which does visual damage, then Goku rushes at him one more time, Vegeta dodges, and Goku reverts back.

So no, Goku was in no way stronger, his punch didn't do any damage to Vegeta while Vegeta's did damage to Goku, Vegeta was clearly in control of the fight the whole time.
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Who said it doesn't apply this time?
You can't expect me to prove a negative, you're making the claim he never includes himself in power statements because of one instance, you need to prove it applies everytime.

The cases are different here, anyway.

In Movie 12, Goku said Fat Janemba was the strongest Ki he'd ever felt, and then showed us that despite that, he was stronger, showing us that he clearly didn't include himself in the quote.

In GT, Goku said this after he'd been indisputably shown to be inferior, and gives no indication of excluding himself.
It is contradicted by the statement that places Boo arc SS Vegetto at at least Evil Dragons arc SS4 Goku's level.
Guidebooks don't hold more weight over the actual show.
Last edited by SSJ2FutureGohan on Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Who are the top 5 possible strongest characters?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:00 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:You can't expect me to prove a negative, you're making the claim he never includes himself in power statements because of one instance, you need to prove it applies everytime.

The cases are different here, anyway.

In Movie 12, Goku said Fat Janemba was the strongest Ki he'd ever felt, and then showed us that despite that, he was stronger, showing us that he clearly didn't include himself in the quote.

In GT, Goku said this after he'd been indisputably shown to be inferior, and gives no indication of excluding himself.

Guidebooks don't hold more weight over the actual show.
I'm not saying that this applies every time, I'm saying that nothing says that it doesn't apply this time as well. GT gives us the option to either believe that Goku includes himself, or he doesn't include himself. The guidebook supports the 2nd option.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Who are the top 5 possible strongest characters?

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:01 pm

Except Vegeta-Baby says he has the greatest of Saiyan power only after transforming, and the only person left to surpass was Super Vegetto.

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Re: Who are the top 5 possible strongest characters?

Post by Hitiro » Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:08 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:
Regardless, he couldn't compare himself to Gohan until later in the manga when he could be sure.
Because he didn't know how strong Gohan was at the time. He can't compare himself to someone if he doesn't know their strength.
He didn't claim he was above him until much later on. Just before the Dabra fight. If he could sense Gohan's SSJ2 at the tournament he would have known then that Gohan was beneath him. Yet all he said was that Gohan was that he was stronger as a kid.
SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Except no. Goku was not above Baby-Vegeta.

Goku landed one hit on Vegeta which did no damage, and Vegeta smiles it off. Goku then says Vegeta is more than an even match for himself, Goku rushes at him, there's a few flashes, then it shows Goku rushing at Vegeta to hit him, and Vegeta blocks it and punches Goku, which does visual damage, then Goku rushes at him one more time, Vegeta dodges, and Goku reverts back.

So no, Goku was in no way stronger, his punch didn't do any damage to Vegeta while Vegeta's did damage to Goku, Vegeta was clearly in control of the fight the whole time.
Goku is not going to punch Vegeta all out if he thinks he is still crazy strong in comparison to him. I certainly wouldn't punch my friend all out if I could take his head off of him. And then when he gets punched by Vegeta he realises that Vegeta, as he is now, is more than a match for Goku at SSJ3. The sentence "more than a match" doesn't mean he is superior. It just means he can put up a good fight against him.

So yeah, Goku can still be above Bebi-Vegeta.

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Re: Who are the top 5 possible strongest characters?

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:13 pm

He didn't claim he was above him until much later on. Just before the Dabra fight. If he could sense Gohan's SSJ2 at the tournament he would have known then that Gohan was beneath him. Yet all he said was that Gohan was that he was stronger as a kid.
Just because he says it later on doesn't mean he didn't realize it before.

As mentioned above, if Vegeta wasn't even able to tell his own power, he wouldn't have been able to claim he was stronger than Gohan.
Goku is not going to punch Vegeta all out if he thinks he is still crazy strong in comparison to him. I certainly wouldn't punch my friend all outif I could take his head off of him. And then when he gets punched by Vegeta he realises that Vegeta, as he is now, is more than a match for Goku at SSJ3. The sentence "more than a match" doesn't mean he is superior. It just means he can put up a good fight against him.

So yeah, Goku can still be above Bebi-Vegeta.
I'm sorry, but this argument is so ridiculous. Goku senses Baby-Vegeta's ki and says he needs to use Super Saiyan 3, and know he's going to take it easy on Vegeta? Why use Super Saiyan 3 is he thinks he is "crazy strong" in comparison to Vegeta then?

It is pure speculation to say Goku was holding back, also.

Goku doesn't realize how strong Vegeta is when Vegeta punches him either, Goku realizes Vegeta is more than a match for him when Goku's punch does nothing to Vegeta.

"More than an even match" doesn't mean stronger? Are you serious? If he said "He's an even match for me", then they'd be equals at best. But no, Vegeta is more than an equal match for Goku, not less, more.

So no, Goku is not above Vegeta at all.

Super Vegetto is weaker than Super Baby 1. Fact.

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Re: Who are the top 5 possible strongest characters?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:20 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Except Vegeta-Baby says he has the greatest of Saiyan power only after transforming, and the only person left to surpass was Super Vegetto.
But Super Vegetto doesn't exist at that point, so he isn't necessarily including him. He could have been talking about the current Saiyans only.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Who are the top 5 possible strongest characters?

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:22 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Except Vegeta-Baby says he has the greatest of Saiyan power only after transforming, and the only person left to surpass was Super Vegetto.
But Super Vegetto doesn't exist at that point, so he isn't necessarily including him. He could have been talking about the current Saiyans only.
He was already above the other Saiyans at this point.

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Re: Who are the top 5 possible strongest characters?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:52 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Except Vegeta-Baby says he has the greatest of Saiyan power only after transforming, and the only person left to surpass was Super Vegetto.
But Super Vegetto doesn't exist at that point, so he isn't necessarily including him. He could have been talking about the current Saiyans only.
He was already above the other Saiyans at this point.
Hmm... then I guess you are right. I guess then that SS Vegetto is stronger than a hypothetical Boo arc SS4 Goku.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Who are the top 5 possible strongest characters?

Post by Hitiro » Thu Mar 26, 2015 4:33 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Just because he says it later on doesn't mean he didn't realize it before.

As mentioned above, if Vegeta wasn't even able to tell his own power, he wouldn't have been able to claim he was stronger than Gohan.
If he thought he was above Goku, like he usually does, then he seeing that Goku was above Gohan would be enough for him to believe that he was stronger than Gohan.
SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:I'm sorry, but this argument is so ridiculous. Goku senses Baby-Vegeta's ki and says he needs to use Super Saiyan 3, and know he's going to take it easy on Vegeta? Why use Super Saiyan 3 is he thinks he is "crazy strong" in comparison to Vegeta then?
There is no reason for Goku not to think he doesn't need SSJ3 here considering the villains he's faced in the past episodes. General Rildo for instance. He would be able to save Vegeta easier by becoming transforming into a SSJ3, which he assumed would be more than enough to fight him. And then use the massive difference to his advantage. Kind of like how Majin Vegeta knocked out the kids with the massive difference in power between them.
SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:It is pure speculation to say Goku was holding back, also.
It's pure speculation that when Bebi Vegeta says he has the greatest Saiyan power that, that would include a character that doesn't exist any more.
SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Goku doesn't realize how strong Vegeta is when Vegeta punches him either, Goku realizes Vegeta is more than a match for him when Goku's punch does nothing to Vegeta.
That's pretty much what I said, he underestimated Vegeta then realised that Vegeta, the way he was then was enough to give him a good fight.
SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:"More than an even match" doesn't mean stronger? Are you serious? If he said "He's an even match for me", then they'd be equals at best. But no, Vegeta is more than an equal match for Goku, not less, more.
You're honestly reading too much into the wording of this sentence. I have seen this sentence used in numerous literature and for the most part it just means that the two people are a match for each other.
SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:So no, Goku is not above Vegeta at all.
Yes, he pretty much is
SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Super Vegetto is weaker than Super Baby 1. Fact.
Not a fact. An opinion. Which doesn't seem likely considering the other information seems to disagree with it. Especially the actual info coming straight from the people who made GT that says Super Vegetto rivals SSJ4 Goku.

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Re: Who are the top 5 possible strongest characters?

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Thu Mar 26, 2015 4:49 pm

If he thought he was above Goku, like he usually does, then he seeing that Goku was above Gohan would be enough for him to believe that he was stronger than Gohan.
Wrong. Vegeta says he's stronger than Gohan after Goku fights Yakon, yet Goku's fight with Yakon is when Vegeta realized Goku was still stronger than him.
There is no reason for Goku not to think he doesn't need SSJ3 here considering the villains he's faced in the past episodes. General Rildo for instance. He would be able to save Vegeta easier by becoming transforming into a SSJ3, which he assumed would be more than enough to fight him. And then use the massive difference to his advantage. Kind of like how Majin Vegeta knocked out the kids with the massive difference in power between them.
Goku never assumed he would be more than enough to beat Vegeta, he said if he'll withstand Vegeta, he'd have to do it as a SS3.
It's pure speculation that when Bebi Vegeta says he has the greatest Saiyan power that, that would include a character that doesn't exist any more.
Except it's not. He was stronger than every other Saiyan at this point, Vegetto was the only one left to be surpassed.

Goku not going full force against Vegeta initially is based on nothing at all, and there's nothing supporting that.
That's pretty much what I said, he underestimated Vegeta then realised that Vegeta, the way he was then was enough to give him a good fight.
That makes no sense. If Goku's punch wasn't full force, how would be able to tell Vegeta was more than a match for him?
You're honestly reading too much into the wording of this sentence. I have seen this sentence used in numerous literature and for the most part it just means that the two people are a match for each other.
No I'm not. Goku says Vegeta is more that a match for him, simple as that.

Goku can't be stronger than someone that is more than a match for him, that makes no sense.
Yes, he pretty much is
Except he's not. You literally have nothing supporting Goku being stronger than Vegeta.

Goku's only punch to Vegeta does no damage, while Vegeta's punch to Goku does damage. Your only rebuttal to this making something up like Goku was holding back against Vegeta which is baseless.

Seriously, please explain how Vegeta doing more damage and avoiding more of Goku's hits makes him weaker than Goku.


I can't even continue this debate anymore, you twist simple things and grasp at straws.

Goku says Vegeta is more than a match for himself... because he is weaker than Goku...?

Freeza, who can't ki sense at all, was perfectly capable of measuring his own ki output in specific percentages, yet master ki sensors like Goku or Vegeta can't even gauge his own power in comparison to another?

Vegeta is able to tell he is stronger than Gohan, because Vegeta doesn't have the ability to tell how strong he is?
Not a fact. An opinion. Which doesn't seem likely considering the other information seems to disagree with it. Especially the actual info coming straight from the people who made GT that says Super Vegetto rivals SSJ4 Goku.
Who said the info came straight from the people who made GT?

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