Is Super Saiyan 4 actually weaker than Super Saiyan 2?

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
Bacon Skittles
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 131
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:21 pm

Is Super Saiyan 4 actually weaker than Super Saiyan 2?

Post by Bacon Skittles » Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:29 pm

I'm totally getting this info off of the Dragon Ball wiki so if there's any official sources that prove this info wrong, please post it here.
Super Saiyan 4 seems to utilize the power of a Golden Oozaru. The Oozaru form increases the user's base power by x10, while Super Saiyan increases the base power by x50. Golden Oozaru is essentially Super Saiyan while in the Oozaru form. Therefore Golden Oozaru's power level is (Base x10)+(Base x50). Unless the Oozaru form acts as a new base form, the Super Saiyan multiplayer is only adding onto the base form, which adds onto the Oozaru.
Super Saiyan 2 increases the base level x100 and Super Saiyan 3 x400 (or 4x SS2.)

So here's an example of a power level using these multiplications. Unless the Oozaru form acts as a new base form, Golden Oozaru/Super Saiyan 4 must be weaker than Super Saiyan 2.

Base Level: 100
Oozaru: 1000
Golden Oozaru: 6000
Super Saiyan: 5000
Super Saiyan 2: 10,000
Super Saiyan 3: 40,000
Golden Oozaru*: 50,000

*If Oozaru form acts as a new base, then the Super Saiyan form would increase it's power by x50.

EDIT: My dumb math
Last edited by Bacon Skittles on Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:51 pm, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
TheDevilsCorpse
Moderator
Posts: 11377
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 4:34 am
Contact:

Re: Is Super Saiyan 4 actually weaker than Super Saiyan 2?

Post by TheDevilsCorpse » Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:34 pm

Your math is off regardless of which approach you take.

Anyway, the forms are officially multipliers. There should be no addition in your equations. So if a character's base is 100, then:

Base: 100
Super Saiyan: 5,000
Super Saiyan 2: 10,000
Super Saiyan 3: 40,000
Ozaru: 1,000
Super Ozaru: 50,000
Direct translations of the Korean DB Online timeline and guidebook.
My personal "canon" and BP list. (Coming Soon)

SSJ2FutureGohan
I Live Here
Posts: 2496
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2014 1:29 am

Re: Is Super Saiyan 4 actually weaker than Super Saiyan 2?

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:29 pm

Super Saiyan 4 isn't a multiplier, it's brings a saiyan's power to it's limit, so it should be greater than Super Saiyan 2.

User avatar
sintzu
Banned
Posts: 13583
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:41 pm

Re: Is Super Saiyan 4 actually weaker than Super Saiyan 2?

Post by sintzu » Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:41 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Super Saiyan 4 isn't a multiplier, it's brings a saiyan's power to it's limit.
Like what Old Kai did for Gohan ?
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

SSJ2FutureGohan
I Live Here
Posts: 2496
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2014 1:29 am

Re: Is Super Saiyan 4 actually weaker than Super Saiyan 2?

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:42 pm

Nah, Old Kaioshin brought Gohan faa~~aar beyond his limits, Super Saiyan 4 brings the user to their limits.

Old Kaioshin's ritual > SS4

User avatar
Dayspring
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7753
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2004 6:00 pm
Location: Quebec, Canada

Re: Is Super Saiyan 4 actually weaker than Super Saiyan 2?

Post by Dayspring » Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:45 pm

sintzu wrote:
SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Super Saiyan 4 isn't a multiplier, it's brings a saiyan's power to it's limit.
Like what Old Kai did for Gohan ?
Yes and no. It's like how the Choshinsui did that, how Saichoru did that, how SSJ did that and how SSJ3 did that. New limits get set once the previous limit was reached.
Captain Christopher Pike wrote:The away team will consist of myself, Cadet Kirk, Mr. Sulu, and Ensign Olsen.
Freeza Heika wrote: for the land of the cool, and the home of the Appule
The Geeky Gentleman: For all your comics, movies, TV and other geeky needs.

User avatar
TheDevilsCorpse
Moderator
Posts: 11377
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 4:34 am
Contact:

Re: Is Super Saiyan 4 actually weaker than Super Saiyan 2?

Post by TheDevilsCorpse » Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:47 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Super Saiyan 4 isn't a multiplier, it's brings a saiyan's power to it's limit, so it should be greater than Super Saiyan 2.
You can't actually say that with absolute certainty. It has been stated to draw out potential to it's limit, but does that really mean anything? Super Saiyan 3's entry in Daizenshu #7 said the exact same thing, and that "limit" turned out to be x400 with more power still available to latter transformations.
Direct translations of the Korean DB Online timeline and guidebook.
My personal "canon" and BP list. (Coming Soon)

SSJ2FutureGohan
I Live Here
Posts: 2496
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2014 1:29 am

Re: Is Super Saiyan 4 actually weaker than Super Saiyan 2?

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:50 pm

But we never got a different multiplier or any sort, the only thing telling us about the power boost is a guidebook. Nothing suggesting otherwise so no reason to ignore it.

A potential unlock also makes sense because of two reasons:

1.) The SS4 boost seems to get lower and lower as GT goes on, since Goku's base is constantly increasing as his potential stays the same.
2.) Vegeta's base was a lot weaker than Goku's base, yet Vegeta's SS4 matched surpassed limits SS4 Goku
Last edited by SSJ2FutureGohan on Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
ekrolo2
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7854
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:27 am
Location: Split, Croatia

Re: Is Super Saiyan 4 actually weaker than Super Saiyan 2?

Post by ekrolo2 » Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:56 pm

TheDevilsCorpse wrote:
SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Super Saiyan 4 isn't a multiplier, it's brings a saiyan's power to it's limit, so it should be greater than Super Saiyan 2.
You can't actually say that with absolute certainty. It has been stated to draw out potential to it's limit, but does that really mean anything? Super Saiyan 3's entry in Daizenshu #7 said the exact same thing, and that "limit" turned out to be x400 with more power still available to latter transformations.
I think the difference is, is that SSJ3 brings out a persons power to their natural bodies limits while SSJ4 gives them an entirely new, superior body with its own limits already pushed to the edge without the need for further training.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):

User avatar
ZazamPow
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 480
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: Is Super Saiyan 4 actually weaker than Super Saiyan 2?

Post by ZazamPow » Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:07 pm

There are a LOT of ways you can go with this. Does Super Saiyan 4 even need Super Saiyan 2 and 3 unlocked in order to achieve? Or could a Super Saiyan who goes Great Ape achieve it automatically? Most people subscribe to the idea that Super Saiyan 4 isn't even Super Saiyan 4, it's another type of transformation all together. It really depends on which direction you take it.

I believe that no matter what, Golden Oozaru needs to be 10x of something since Oozaru is 10x base. The question is, what is that something? It could be that Golden Oozaru is 10 times a Super Saiyan 3, in which case it would be:

Base = 100
Oozaru x10 base = 1,000
SSJ x50 base = 5,000
SSJ2 x2 of Super Saiyan (or x100 base) = 10,000
SSJ3 x4 of Super Saiyan 2 (or x400 base) = 40,000
Golden Oozaru x10 of Super Saiyan 3 (or x4,000 of base) = 400,000
SSJ4 = controlled Golden Oozaru

OR it could be that you don't even need SSJ2 and 3, they were just powered up forms of SSJ1 since the Saiyans didn't have their tails and couldn't achieve the TRUE next stage. In which case, SSJ4 would only be 10x SSJ1, but that would still be higher than SSJ2 and 3.

Base = 100
Oozaru x10 base = 1,000
SSJ x50 base = 5,000
SSJ2 x2 of Super Saiyan (or x100 base) = 10,000
SSJ3 x4 of Super Saiyan 2 (or x400 base) = 40,000
Golden Oozaru x10 of Super Saiyan (or x500 of base) = 50,000
SSJ4 = controlled Golden Oozaru

Either way works, SSJ4 ends up stronger than all the previous forms, but the amount of how much stronger changes a lot. Either way makes sense, IMO, it depends on how you prefer it. There are certain constants that need to be there; Oozaru is a 10x multiplier of your previous form, as in if you're a Super Saiyan, it would be 10x that. And SSJ4 is a controlled Golden Oozaru. The question is, do you want SSJ4 to be its own thing, or is it actually a Super Saiyan 4 coming after 3 and the appearance only changes so drastically by coincidence?
Kamiccolo9 wrote:I swear, the Gohan fanboys won't be happy unless he just bends over and farts all of Freeza's men into the sun.
fadeddreams5 wrote: Honestly, this would only make me slightly satisfied. To make me happy, he'd also have to grab Freeza by the tail, drag him to the nearest toilet, and give him swirlies until he submits and calls him "daddy."

Gohan deserves it.

User avatar
Hitiro
I Live Here
Posts: 3433
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:43 pm

Re: Is Super Saiyan 4 actually weaker than Super Saiyan 2?

Post by Hitiro » Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:10 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:But we never got a different multiplier or any sort, the only thing telling us about the power boost is a guidebook, which (I'm pretty sure) directly comes from the creators of the series. Nothing suggesting otherwise so no reason to ignore it.

A potential unlock also makes sense because of two reasons:

1.) The SS4 boost seems to get lower and lower as GT goes on, since Goku's base is constantly increasing as his potential stays the same.
2.) Vegeta's base was a lot weaker than Goku's base, yet Vegeta's SS4 matched surpassed limits SS4 Goku
There are some problems with these statements.

1) We have no indication that Goku's base got stronger over the course of the series. While it may have gotten stronger there is no actual proof that it did unless you want to believe that the whole "Base Goku > Omega Shenron > SSJ4 Goku" thing is proof. But if that were the case why even transform into the form in the first place? It's clearly just a power inconsistency.

2) Can you prove Vegeta's base was a lot weaker than Goku's base? Is it stated anywhere? As far as I'm aware there are no examples for comparison. The only example we could possibly use for comparison is against Super 17 and Vegeta was beaten up before he even turned SSJ whereas Goku started out as a SSJ. Goku got one blow in as a SSJ and never actually hit Super 17 afterwards, unless you count the blasts that Super 17 took on purpose to get even more powerful, which I don't.

SSJ2FutureGohan
I Live Here
Posts: 2496
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2014 1:29 am

Re: Is Super Saiyan 4 actually weaker than Super Saiyan 2?

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:22 pm

1) We have no indication that Goku's base got stronger over the course of the series. While it may have gotten stronger there is no actual proof that it did unless you want to believe that the whole "Base Goku > Omega Shenron > SSJ4 Goku" thing is proof. But if that were the case why even transform into the form in the first place? It's clearly just a power inconsistency.
SS Goku in the Super 17 arc outperforms Super Uub against Super #17, in the previous arc, Super Uub was stronger than SS3 Goku.

SS Goku (Super 17) > Super Uub > SS3 Goku (Baby arc)

Also, the Super 17 arc took place a few months after the Baby arc, it's ludicrous to think Goku would not train at least a little bit, that's all he ever does.
2) Can you prove Vegeta's base was a lot weaker than Goku's base? Is it stated anywhere? As far as I'm aware there are no examples for comparison. The only example we could possibly use for comparison is against Super 17 and Vegeta was beaten up before he even turned SSJ whereas Goku started out as a SSJ. Goku got one blow in as a SSJ and never actually hit Super 17 afterwards, unless you count the blasts that Super 17 took on purpose to get even more powerful, which I don't.
Vegeta was a SS/SS2 against Super 17, and Goku in SS outperformed him. And which blast are you talking about? The Kamehameha SS Goku shot at Super 17? 17 pretty much had an orgasm over that Kamehameha, and it shows his muscles increase, why wouldn't he be getting more powerful?

Also, Vegeta's SS4 matched surpassed limits SS4 Goku, a Goku who was powered up, so assuming their base is the same, Vegeta's regular SS4 matched a powered up version of Goku's SS4.


So no. I'm not seeing any problems with these statements.

Post Reply