Just how strong are the Saiyans?

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Just how strong are the Saiyans?

Post by Dayspring » Wed Mar 25, 2015 3:30 pm

The Daizenshuu is rife with contradictions in terms of Battle Powers, so I take them with a grain of salt. It says Raditz is the average Saiyan at 1,500, but this directly contradicts the Saibaman entry in the daizenshuu as well as what's stated in the manga (that his BP equal to a Saibaman's, which is exactly 1,200). Meanwhile, Goku's 5,000 is weaker than Nappa and his "over 8,000" isn't an unbeatable opponent, but it pegs Nappa at only 4,000. The manga also has Nappa being impressed by Gohan's 2,800, but not to the point of thinking it's anything special, while Vegeta claims that Nameks are above average in strength and we later see that their fighters typically have BPs of 3,000. There's also an interview somewhere on Kanzenshuu with Toriyama stating that only about 10 Saiyans are mid-class warriors, only King and Prince Vegeta are truly elite warriors and that Bardock is among the first/strongest class of of low-level warriors.

My own personal head-canon to ratify all this is that that there are four or five classes of low-level warrior and that the Saiyan elite falls under what's considered "mid-class warriors", while their Super Elite (King and Prince Vegeta) are "elite-class warriors."

Raditz could be either the mean average (add all Saiyan Battle Powers up and divide by the number of Saiyans and the total is 1,200; equal to Raditz), the mode average (most common Battle Power is 1,200) or median average (50% of Saiyan Battle Powers are 1,200 or lower), or he could fall in a range of Battle Powers that caps out at 1,500, this range being the one with the most Saiyans.

So over 10,000 = Super Elite = King Vegeta and Prince Vegeta.
5,000 to 10,000 = Elite Saiyan = Mid-Class Warrior.
3,000 to 5,000 = First-class Low-Level Warrior.
1,500 to 3,000 = Above-average Low-Level Warrior.
1,200 to 1,500 = Average Low-Level Warrior.
Below 1,200 = Below-average Low-Level Warrior.

King Vegeta: Between 10,000 and 18,000.
Nappa: In the 7,000s
Bardock: Between 2,800 and 5,000.
Toma: 1,500.
Toteppo and Celipa: Between 1,200 and 1,500.
Pan Buukin and Raditz: 1,200.
Onio: Under 400.
Tarble: Under 1,200.
Onio: Under 400. (His SSJ strength is about on par with Vegeta's Saiyan-era strength, so divide around 18,000 by 50).
Gine: Under Onio.
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Re: Just how strong are the Saiyans?

Post by Deathbringer » Wed Mar 25, 2015 3:44 pm

I don't know maybe the Saiyans should have trained with 300x gravity more, somehow a bunch of humans are stronger than most of them. It's probably because the Saiyans never had to fight someone so strong, Goku and Vegeta both prove that most of Planet Vegeta could have become Super Saiyans none of this "once in a thousand years" rubbish. I wonder if any Saiyan geneticists realised that if they engaged in inter-breeding with similar species then they could all be much stronger, perhaps Freeza was keeping a lot of information and training resources from them to keep them all weaker than him but now I'm just rambling on and haven't answered your question because I never knew the answer sorry :wave:

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Re: Just how strong are the Saiyans?

Post by Lord Beerus » Wed Mar 25, 2015 4:01 pm

Dayspring wrote:So over 10,000 = Super Elite = King Vegeta and Prince Vegeta.
5,000 to 10,000 = Elite Saiyan = Mid-Class Warrior.
3,000 to 5,000 = First-class Low-Level Warrior.
1,500 to 3,000 = Above-average Low-Level Warrior.
1,200 to 1,500 = Average Low-Level Warrior.
Below 1,200 = Below-average Low-Level Warrior.

King Vegeta: Between 10,000 and 18,000.
Nappa: In the 7,000s
Bardock: Between 2,800 and 5,000.
Toma: 1,500.
Toteppo and Celipa: Between 1,200 and 1,500.
Pan Buukin and Raditz: 1,200.
Onio: Under 400.
Tarble: Under 1,200.
Onio: Under 400. (His SSJ strength is about on par with Vegeta's Saiyan-era strength, so divide around 18,000 by 50).
Gine: Under Onio.
Yeah, that sounds about right.

But realistically, the Saiyan's are as strong as Toei or Toriyama wants them to be.

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Re: Just how strong are the Saiyans?

Post by ZazamPow » Wed Mar 25, 2015 5:43 pm

Are the Saiyans even "(one of) the most powerful warrior race in the universe" anymore? That's how they were introduced, every member of the race has an extremely high battle power, but if we're looking at averages as less than 2,000, they don't really seem like anything special in the universe. Could Raditz and Vegeta have just been caught up in extreme nationalism and Saiyans are actually nothing special besides their potential to transform?
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Re: Just how strong are the Saiyans?

Post by Kaboom » Wed Mar 25, 2015 6:58 pm

The way I've started to see it is... 4,000-5,000 is the "transition range" where a low-class becomes worthy of promotion to an elite/mid-class. The less-powerful manga version of Bardock would have just recently pushed himself up into this level, while Nappa as we saw him on Earth would have dipped back down into it from age. Anything weaker than that is decidedly low-class, and anything higher is an elite/mid-class. The "super elites," comprising only of the Vegetas, is anything around 10,000 or above.

Of course, in the long run, none of it really means all that much. Vegeta didn't stop referring to Goku as a low-class after displaying a PL of over 8,000 and kicking Nappa's ass, after all.
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Re: Just how strong are the Saiyans?

Post by Dyno » Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:19 pm

There are only three classes; Low-class, Mid-class and Elite-class.

I would like to know where the hell are you guys coming up with "super" or even mixing "elite/mid" classes. :?

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Re: Just how strong are the Saiyans?

Post by singsing » Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:26 pm

Dyno wrote:There are only three classes; Low-class, Mid-class and Elite-class.

I would like to know where the hell are you guys coming up with "super" or even mixing "elite/mid" classes. :?
The dub uses super elite a lot.

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Re: Just how strong are the Saiyans?

Post by Kaboom » Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:28 pm

Dyno wrote:There are only three classes; Low-class, Mid-class and Elite-class.
I would like to know where the hell are you guys coming up with "super" or even mixing "elite/mid" classes. :?
A slight discrepancy in the terms, I think brought about by Toriyama in a recent interview. Toriyama referred to them as low-class, mid-class, and elites, and that the only elites were King and Prince Vegeta. But in the manga, Nappa is called an "elite" as well.
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Re: Just how strong are the Saiyans?

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:28 pm

singsing wrote:
Dyno wrote:There are only three classes; Low-class, Mid-class and Elite-class.

I would like to know where the hell are you guys coming up with "super" or even mixing "elite/mid" classes. :?
The dub uses super elite a lot.
Vegeta refers to himself as a super elite numerous times, while Nappa is referred to as an elite in the manga.
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Re: Just how strong are the Saiyans?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:34 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:But realistically, the Saiyan's are as strong as Toei or Toriyama wants them to be.
Toei does that. Toriyama doesn't have the characters as strong as he wants them (you won't see a good fight between Kuririn & SS3 Goku from Toriyama), he makes them stronger through plot devices.
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Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Just how strong are the Saiyans?

Post by Dyno » Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:37 pm

Kaboom wrote:A slight discrepancy in the terms, I think brought about by Toriyama in a recent interview. Toriyama referred to them as low-class, mid-class, and elites, and that the only elites were King and Prince Vegeta. But in the manga, Nappa is called an "elite" as well.
Even Raditz calls himself an elite... Well, you guys are always taking someone's lines exactly word-by-word. :| But anyway, Nappa is a mid-class soldier and by accepting that power level guide, then he is a mid-class with 4.000 of power level. I don't know if we could work with that guide along with Bardock's TV Special, because it's clearly from there where you are taking the "10.000" number to be an Elite and then mixing with Dragon Ball Minus. Well, maybe it is possible, I just don't know.

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Re: Just how strong are the Saiyans?

Post by Lord Beerus » Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:40 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:But realistically, the Saiyan's are as strong as Toei or Toriyama wants them to be.
Toei does that. Toriyama doesn't have the characters as strong as he wants them (you won't see a good fight between Kuririn & SS3 Goku from Toriyama), he makes them stronger through plot devices.
Fair point. :)

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Re: Just how strong are the Saiyans?

Post by Bacon Skittles » Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:11 pm

Also account for their Oozaru forms which multiply their power by x10.

So over 100,000 = Super Elite = King Vegeta and Prince Vegeta.
50,000 to 100,000 = Elite Saiyan = Mid-Class Warrior.
30,000 to 50,000 = First-class Low-Level Warrior.
15,000 to 30,000 = Above-average Low-Level Warrior.
12,000 to 15,000 = Average Low-Level Warrior.
Below 12,000 = Below-average Low-Level Warrior.

Most Saiyan children are apparently able to conquer worlds. Considering the average human power level is around 2 or so (same as Goku's initial power level.) An Oozaru Goku would have killed off humanity if no trained humans came into the fight.

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Re: Just how strong are the Saiyans?

Post by Captain Sauza » Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:42 pm

The Saiyans do seem puny compared to some of the other aliens introduced later on. If a 10,000 BP is so high, it really makes some of the others look like freaks - the Ginyu Force and Cooler's Squad especially.
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Re: Just how strong are the Saiyans?

Post by singsing » Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:30 am

Captain Sauza wrote:The Saiyans do seem puny compared to some of the other aliens introduced later on. If a 10,000 BP is so high, it really makes some of the others look like freaks - the Ginyu Force and Cooler's Squad especially.
Those guys are also mutant freaks.

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Re: Just how strong are the Saiyans?

Post by Dayspring » Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:06 pm

ZazamPow wrote:Are the Saiyans even "(one of) the most powerful warrior race in the universe" anymore? That's how they were introduced, every member of the race has an extremely high battle power, but if we're looking at averages as less than 2,000, they don't really seem like anything special in the universe. Could Raditz and Vegeta have just been caught up in extreme nationalism and Saiyans are actually nothing special besides their potential to transform?
It's not so much that Saiyans are being weakened over time as it is that fighters are rare and when they exist, they're usually nothing spectacular. Literally, the only people above 30,000 besides Nail are mutants and even their Battle Powers are rarely that high. What makes the Saiyan race different is that it's rare to be a non-combattant and their average Battle Power is above what's considered average universe-wide (remember that Nameks are considered above average, but they typically have Battle Powers of only 3,000 for their fighters). Plus, Saiyans can become literally 10x more powerful when they transform, which puts most Saiyans in the elite-range universe-wide.

The Galactic Patrol are feared by villains all over the galaxy because of how strong they are, but none of them are powerful enough to take on an adult Saiyan, regardless of its strength. Most likely, on top of being rare, warriors are generally less than 1,500 in terms of Battle Power. The whole low level and mid level thing is kind of like how schools have mid-level students at a B grade and higher, but most students get C or lower. Your logical assumption would be that it makes no sense for a student with a perfect score to be considered "mid level," but the point is that there actually is the rare prodigy who maintains a perfect score while double-majoring and having skipped several grades in the process.

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Kaboom wrote:A slight discrepancy in the terms, I think brought about by Toriyama in a recent interview. Toriyama referred to them as low-class, mid-class, and elites, and that the only elites were King and Prince Vegeta. But in the manga, Nappa is called an "elite" as well.
Even Raditz calls himself an elite... Well, you guys are always taking someone's lines exactly word-by-word. :| But anyway, Nappa is a mid-class soldier and by accepting that power level guide, then he is a mid-class with 4.000 of power level. I don't know if we could work with that guide along with Bardock's TV Special, because it's clearly from there where you are taking the "10.000" number to be an Elite and then mixing with Dragon Ball Minus. Well, maybe it is possible, I just don't know.
Raditz is referring to his willingness to kill without a moment's hesitation in battle when he calls himself a first-rate fighter, unlike Goku. Nappa and Vegeta are both members of the elite among Saiyans. When Vegeta calls himself a Super Elite, he's doing it to specify that, by Saiyan standards, he's so damn strong that he's on a whole other level.

Your comment about me "clearly" taking the 10,000 from the Bardock special is wrong. At 5,000, you're definitely an elite Saiyan, which would be a mid-level warrior by Freeza's standards. At a level well below 18,000 (since King Vegeta was much weaker than his son's 18,000), you're definitely elite by Freeza's standards. I just guessed the threshold would be 10,000 because it's five figures and double 5,000.
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Re: Just how strong are the Saiyans?

Post by RandomGuy96 » Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:28 am

The Daizenshuu is rife with contradictions in terms of Battle Powers, so I take them with a grain of salt. It says Raditz is the average Saiyan at 1,500, but this directly contradicts the Saibaman entry in the daizenshuu as well as what's stated in the manga (that his BP equal to a Saibaman's, which is exactly 1,200).
That's never stated anywhere. It's only said that the Saibamen RIVAL Raditz. Toriyama himself said Raditz was stronger than a Saibaman.
Meanwhile, Goku's 5,000 is weaker than Nappa
Man what? The only comparison between Goku's 5,000 and Nappa comes when Nappa tries to hit ~5,000 Goku and fails miserably. Or, if you prefer, we can also count when Vegeta read Goku at 5,000, and Nappa responded by sweating bullets and panicking.
and his "over 8,000" isn't an unbeatable opponent, but it pegs Nappa at only 4,000.
Considering how Gohan at 2,800 could hurt him, and Goku at 5,000 completely outclassed him (with his full power of 8,000 just making Nappa look like a baby), 4,000 is fine. It's generous, if anything. I probably would have put him at 3,000, considering how much Gohan's kick hurt him, and how much stronger than him Goku was shown to be when suppressed to 5,000 (Nappa couldn't even see him move).
Raditz could be either the mean average (add all Saiyan Battle Powers up and divide by the number of Saiyans and the total is 1,200; equal to Raditz), the mode average (most common Battle Power is 1,200) or median average (50% of Saiyan Battle Powers are 1,200 or lower), or he could fall in a range of Battle Powers that caps out at 1,500, this range being the one with the most Saiyans.
Raditz's battle power is 1,500, and we see that this level is well above Freeza's generic grunts.
Even Raditz calls himself an elite... Well, you guys are always taking someone's lines exactly word-by-word. :|
No, Raditz just calls himself a first-rate warrior. Which, in context, is clearly just him bragging about being an asshole, rather than making a statement about his strength. He said this while beating down Goku, to emphasize that, as a first-rate warrior, he wouldn't hesitate to kill his own brother.
Are the Saiyans even "(one of) the most powerful warrior race in the universe" anymore? That's how they were introduced, every member of the race has an extremely high battle power, but if we're looking at averages as less than 2,000, they don't really seem like anything special in the universe. Could Raditz and Vegeta have just been caught up in extreme nationalism and Saiyans are actually nothing special besides their potential to transform?
We don't see any other species with anywhere near that high of an average strength, unless you're talking about a species of only a few dozen at most. Like the Core People. Even if they averaged 500, they'd still be one of the most powerful species.
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