So what exactly is this SSGSS?

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Re: So what exactly is this Blue Super Saiyan God?

Post by Bullza » Fri Apr 03, 2015 10:43 am

Beerus did say Goku's power hadn't decreased much going from RSSJG to SSJ and while he only fought at 80% power as a RSSJG he assumedly fought at 100% after that power ran out briefly so it makes sense why he put up a better fight.

Honestly though I don't know why they didn't just keep him fighting in RSSJG the whole time, it was a new form and half of (the better half) the fight he just used the regular SSJ form we've seen time and time again.

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Re: So what exactly is this Blue Super Saiyan God?

Post by Marlowe89 » Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:02 am

Low Tone G wrote:I think the whole Blue Super Saiyan is bullshit as is. Goku put a better fight in Super Saiyan than did it earlier at 80% as a Red Haired Saiyan God, so he did absorb the whole realm of power into his body and being, especially when he did not notice any difference during the whole fight. I think the introduction of a Blue version of the simple Super Saiyan as "God + Super Saiyan hybrid" with an explanation that it's a Super Saiyan form with fully absorbed God Ki it contradicts the Golden version's ability to allow Goku to fully absorb the God power when it was already confirmed by the original author himself.
Honestly, I think it's either a simple case of retcon - as in, Toriyama at some point may have regretted not giving "SSJ with SSJG's power" a unique aesthetic identifier to differentiate it from the vanilla SSJ, so for this film he decided to just make the hair blue - or it's a case of Goku never fully absorbing the power of SSJG until RoF, which I think is implied by the fact that Goku needed to be in the actual magenta SSJG form to cancel out Beerus's destructive energy bomb at the end of BoG.

In either case, while I appreciate the official suggestion that BSSJG isn't just an evolution of RSSJG (as if we need another one of those), I think that the entire concept of it only succeeded in confusing the fanbase more than anything. I believe it would have been much better if the blue hair was relegated to being Vegeta's personal version of SSJG; that way the form could remain consistent with the color schemes of Goku and Vegeta.

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Re: So what exactly is this Blue Super Saiyan God?

Post by Low Tone G » Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:10 am

Darkprince410 wrote:
Low Tone G wrote:For me the whole Blue version of a Super Saiyan it's pointless after having BOG Goku using Golden Super Saiyan form with God power in BOG and put up a better fight than before as a Saiyan God at 80% of full power. That scene it really proved for me that Goku had all his God power in Base and Super Saiyan... But now it really shows that Goku's hair changes in colour if he goes full power. If we assume that Goku's absolute God full power makes his hair blue, then that must mean that Goku wasn't fighting Beerus seriously not even in the worst despair back in BOG. Which mustn't be the case.
Goku fighting Beerus relatively so well in his Ssj form indicates the opposite to me in terms of him having all his god ki in his base at the time. He had so little of that god ki left in his base form at the time that boosting his strength with Super Saiya-jin was the only way he could keep up with Beerus. Yes, his base form was stronger than it was before, but given Goku's Ssj performance and Beerus's own words on the matter, what Goku was using was only a fraction of how much power he had in his god form prior.
The fact that Goku did not notice any changes in power suggests to me that even in his Base the decrease was less than 5%.
Marlowe89 wrote:Honestly, I think it's either a simple case of retcon - as in, Toriyama at some point may have regretted not giving "SSJ with SSJG's power" a unique aesthetic identifier to differentiate it from the vanilla SSJ, so for this film he decided to just make the hair blue - or it's a case of Goku never fully absorbing the power of SSJG until RoF, which I think is implied by the fact that Goku needed to be in the actual magenta SSJG form to cancel out Beerus's destructive energy bomb at the end of BoG.

In either case, while I appreciate the official suggestion that BSSJG isn't just an evolution of RSSJG (as if we need another one of those), I think that the entire concept of it only succeeded in confusing the fanbase more than anything. I believe it would have been much better if the blue hair was relegated to being Vegeta's personal version of SSJG; that way the form could remain consistent with the color schemes of Goku and Vegeta.
Yeah the confusion is decent... I think it's pretty much a case of evolution of power means visual change. I'd rather call it a Godly Evolution Super Saiyan, rather than Saiyan beyond God. I think Toriyama just wanted to point out that a change in God power it can only be made by changing the aura and appearance too. So even if Toriyama still remembers that he had Goku as a fully powered God just in Golden Super Saiyan in BOG, but for further increases in power he has to point out that Goku now isn't the same strong Super Saiyan(with God power of course), but a Super Saiyan with bigger God power. I personally have been very fine with Goku being perfectly unchanged(in Base and Super Saiyan) still making progresses after the BOG, but Toriyama wanted it otherwise.
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Re: So what exactly is this Blue Super Saiyan God?

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:33 am

Low Tone G wrote:The fact that Goku did not notice any changes in power suggests to me that even in his Base the decrease was less than 5%.
I think Goku's performance changed more due to seriousness than due to power itself. Even after turning into Super Saiyan, Beerus said Goku's power didn't decrease dramatically, but it seems that it decreased a bit. Goku apparently didn't notice because he was too focused in that fight. My theory is that this blue form is a result of training to make Super Saiyan exactly as strong as Super Saiyan God, since the other forms just use most of it. To make it more simple:
Marlowe89 wrote:Honestly, I think it's either a simple case of retcon - as in, Toriyama at some point may have regretted not giving "SSJ with SSJG's power" a unique aesthetic identifier to differentiate it from the vanilla SSJ, so for this film he decided to just make the hair blue - or it's a case of Goku never fully absorbing the power of SSJG until RoF, which I think is implied by the fact that Goku needed to be in the actual magenta SSJG form to cancel out Beerus's destructive energy bomb at the end of BoG.
I would say Toriyama wanted to give that unique aesthetic while maintaing consistence. Though, I like the part of existing important differences between those forms, something like blue having sento ryoku and not having that negating-blast-ability.

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Re: So what exactly is this Blue Super Saiyan God?

Post by Basaku » Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:41 am

Bullza wrote:So the BSSJG is the result of Goku turning into a Super Saiyan after having completely absorbed the Super Saiyan God powers
That's what the movie says.
Bullza wrote:and were assuming that he didn't turn blue in Battle of Gods because he hadn't fully absorbed it?
Or Toriyama just decided he likes blue color now and couldn't be bothered with an explanation why it wasn't blue in BOG. The whole thing is lazy as hell. To think that I used to be bothered by unclear transition from Golden Ape to SSJ4... Blue SSJ is entrely diferent level of storytelling mess
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Re: So what exactly is this Blue Super Saiyan God?

Post by Low Tone G » Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:42 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
Low Tone G wrote:The fact that Goku did not notice any changes in power suggests to me that even in his Base the decrease was less than 5%.
I think Goku's performance changed due to seriousness more than power itself. Even after turning into Super Saiyan, Beerus said Goku's power didn't decrease dramatically, but it seems that it decreased a bit. Goku apparently didn't notice because he was too focused in that fight. My theory is that this blue form is a result of training to make Super Saiyan exactly as strong as Super Saiyan God, since the other forms just use most of it. To make it more simple:
So you are still a believer that Super Saiyan 2 and 3 add something to Goku's power, now when he has God power absorbed?

I'd rather see it like this:
Basaku wrote:
Bullza wrote:So the BSSJG is the result of Goku turning into a Super Saiyan after having completely absorbed the Super Saiyan God powers
That's what the movie says.
Actually in the summary Goku says that is hard to explain but basically it's a Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God, there is no mention of whether is a result of the full absorption of the Super Saiyan God power or not.
Movie Synopsis wrote:Goku says it’s hard to explain, but basically it’s Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God.
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Re: So what exactly is this Blue Super Saiyan God?

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Apr 03, 2015 12:03 pm

Low Tone G wrote:So you are still a believer that Super Saiyan 2 and 3 add something to Goku's power, now when he has God power absorbed?
Why not? But I also believe the stamina drawback would make them meaningless, since the difference is even less significant. Imagine Goku turning into SS3 and after a few seconds his power drops to 80%. It's better to use SS in that case.

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Re: So what exactly is this Blue Super Saiyan God?

Post by Bullza » Fri Apr 03, 2015 2:04 pm

Is Goku still able to become the RSSJG or has that gone forever now?

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Re: So what exactly is this Blue Super Saiyan God?

Post by fadeddreams5 » Fri Apr 03, 2015 2:08 pm

Bullza wrote:Is Goku still able to become the RSSJG or has that gone forever now?
I think that would require the ritual again. Only reason he tapped into it late in BoG again was because it was still freshly absorbed. Afterwards, it completely faded, but Goku now has access to all its powers in the form of BSSJG. That's how I see it, anyways.

Basically, RSSJG = temporary ritual transformation. BSSJG = tapping into RSSJG's power at will after it has been absorbed by replacing SSJ with it.
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Re: So what exactly is this Blue Super Saiyan God?

Post by Low Tone G » Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:26 pm

fadeddreams5 wrote:
Bullza wrote:Is Goku still able to become the RSSJG or has that gone forever now?
I think that would require the ritual again. Only reason he tapped into it late in BoG again was because it was still freshly absorbed. Afterwards, it completely faded, but Goku now has access to all its powers in the form of BSSJG. That's how I see it, anyways.

Basically, RSSJG = temporary ritual transformation. BSSJG = tapping into RSSJG's power at will after it has been absorbed by replacing SSJ with it.
I would agree with this if the Golden Super Saiyan wasn't usable to replace it earlier. I think the reason that the Golden has become Blue is because Goku trained and powered up a bit.(as is he is still no match for Beerus)
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Re: So what exactly is this Blue Super Saiyan God?

Post by fadeddreams5 » Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:50 pm

Low Tone G wrote:
I would agree with this if the Golden Super Saiyan wasn't usable to replace it earlier.
That was only the case in BoG. I don't think he can use regular SSJ anymore; this blue version IS his SSJ form now. Hence why he says it's SSJ with the power of SSJG. This is his SSJ state, but it now taps into a different source of energy (god ki).
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Re: So what exactly is this Blue Super Saiyan God?

Post by Regarder » Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:51 pm

Seems like the only reason Goku was able to have God powers in base is because he'd worked out to use God energy, so what if the time he goes SS during the battle of Beerus, he's just going SS off his regular ki? That would only add on a small amount to his power over the God Ki. Blue SS is presumably when he's worked out how to use the God Ki itself to go SS, and is presumably much more powerful than regular base Godku.

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Re: So what exactly is this Blue Super Saiyan God?

Post by Low Tone G » Fri Apr 03, 2015 4:26 pm

Regarder wrote:Seems like the only reason Goku was able to have God powers in base is because he'd worked out to use God energy, so what if the time he goes SS during the battle of Beerus, he's just going SS off his regular ki? That would only add on a small amount to his power over the God Ki. Blue SS is presumably when he's worked out how to use the God Ki itself to go SS, and is presumably much more powerful than regular base Godku.
Yeah.... That's a good issue to discuss. What the gap between Mystic Saiyan God Goku(Base Goku in ROF) and Ascended Godly Super Saiyan Goku(Blue Super Saiyan)... I think it's nowhere as huge like in the Base to Super Saiyan case. If it is, both Goku and Vegeta would have surpassed Whis by a huge margin. I think if there's some kind of multiplier then it's below 2x in my view.
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Re: So what exactly is this Blue Super Saiyan God?

Post by Low Tone G » Fri Apr 03, 2015 4:34 pm

fadeddreams5 wrote:
Low Tone G wrote:
I would agree with this if the Golden Super Saiyan wasn't usable to replace it earlier.
That was only the case in BoG. I don't think he can use regular SSJ anymore; this blue version IS his SSJ form now. Hence why he says it's SSJ with the power of SSJG. This is his SSJ state, but it now taps into a different source of energy (god ki).
That's exactly my problem. If then Goku's SSJ was perfect to use the Saiyan God power with it, why isn't it any more? I think even if he can not use Golden SSJ anymore it's because he has grown a bit stronger in God power and the color change is the result of it, because he fully absorbed it right then in BOG, this is already confirmed in the previous movie and by Toriyama too.
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Re: So what exactly is this Blue Super Saiyan God?

Post by fadeddreams5 » Fri Apr 03, 2015 4:53 pm

Low Tone G wrote:
fadeddreams5 wrote:
Low Tone G wrote:
I would agree with this if the Golden Super Saiyan wasn't usable to replace it earlier.
That was only the case in BoG. I don't think he can use regular SSJ anymore; this blue version IS his SSJ form now. Hence why he says it's SSJ with the power of SSJG. This is his SSJ state, but it now taps into a different source of energy (god ki).
That's exactly my problem. If then Goku's SSJ was perfect to use the Saiyan God power with it, why isn't it any more? .
It's just speculation on my part, but I think Goku did become significantly weaker after his SSJG form went away during his battle w/ Beerus. At this moment, the SSJG powers should have completely gone away, but Goku managed to absorb that realm into himself, and thus, he was still on the same playing field as the God of Destruction. Him reverting to SSJ in that fight was a representation of his power slowly slipping away because he was still too inexperienced with it. When Beerus used his energy ball, Goku managed, and was FORCED, to power back up to SSJG to block it. This right here is proof that he was not as strong as he was before turning into a regular SSJ.

After his training with Whis, Goku learned how to harness the full bulk of this power as his own by tapping into it in place of his SSJ transformation. This is just what I speculate based on the summary posted, but I don't think SSJ is separate from BSSJG.
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Re: So what exactly is this Blue Super Saiyan God?

Post by Golden Frieza » Fri Apr 03, 2015 5:23 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
MajinVegetaSSj6 wrote:Sorta of Mastered SSJG? Like the red form was still incomplete maybe? The Gap power...If Beerus is 10 and Red SSJG Goku was 6, maybe this bblue form is 8...
I'd say it would be more:

Whis - 15
Beerus - 10
Blue SSJG Goku - 7.5
Blue SSJG Vegeta - 7.5
Golden Freeza - 6.5
Base Goku - 6
Final Form Freeza - 4

I wouldn't really say Golden Frieza is a 6.5. That would make him as strong as SSJG Goku in BoG and I don't think he was even at that level. Maybe a 4.5 for Golden Frieza & 2.5 for Final Form?

(not trying to be rude at all btw, and sorry if this post is irrelevant. i didnt read all replies)

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Re: So what exactly is this Blue Super Saiyan God?

Post by Bullza » Fri Apr 03, 2015 5:40 pm

Golden Frieza is said to have fought on equal terms to BSSJG Goku and even seemed to have the upper hand early on so if anything he should be an 8 on that list. It's just that his power drops rapidly and Goku's doesn't.

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Re: So what exactly is this Blue Super Saiyan God?

Post by Marlowe89 » Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:29 pm

fadeddreams5 wrote:Him reverting to SSJ in that fight was a representation of his power slowly slipping away because he was still too inexperienced with it. When Beerus used his energy ball, Goku managed, and was FORCED, to power back up to SSJG to block it. This right here is proof that he was not as strong as he was before turning into a regular SSJ.

After his training with Whis, Goku learned how to harness the full bulk of this power as his own by tapping into it in place of his SSJ transformation. This is just what I speculate based on the summary posted, but I don't think SSJ is separate from BSSJG.
This really does seem to be the best explanation as far as I'm concerned. If Goku really could harness the full extent of his SSJG powers in his regular golden SSJ form, he wouldn't have any need to power back up to that state when Beerus launched his energy ball. He did, though. To me, this clearly signifies that even though Goku's subconscious memorization/absorption of SSJG's strength allowed him to retain it, that power was also gradually slipping away from him since he was no longer in that specific form.

Blue Super Saiyan on the other hand appears to be an alternate method for Goku to fully integrate the same power into his own reserves without any need to transform into the actual SSJG form, which would include going through that weird ritual. It's somewhat like a shortcut.

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Re: So what exactly is this Blue Super Saiyan God?

Post by Low Tone G » Sat Apr 04, 2015 3:54 am

Marlowe89 wrote:
fadeddreams5 wrote:Him reverting to SSJ in that fight was a representation of his power slowly slipping away because he was still too inexperienced with it. When Beerus used his energy ball, Goku managed, and was FORCED, to power back up to SSJG to block it. This right here is proof that he was not as strong as he was before turning into a regular SSJ.

After his training with Whis, Goku learned how to harness the full bulk of this power as his own by tapping into it in place of his SSJ transformation. This is just what I speculate based on the summary posted, but I don't think SSJ is separate from BSSJG.
This really does seem to be the best explanation as far as I'm concerned. If Goku really could harness the full extent of his SSJG powers in his regular golden SSJ form, he wouldn't have any need to power back up to that state when Beerus launched his energy ball. He did, though. To me, this clearly signifies that even though Goku's subconscious memorization/absorption of SSJG's strength allowed him to retain it, that power was also gradually slipping away from him since he was no longer in that specific form.

Blue Super Saiyan on the other hand appears to be an alternate method for Goku to fully integrate the same power into his own reserves without any need to transform into the actual SSJG form, which would include going through that weird ritual. It's somewhat like a shortcut.
Actually I like that explanation, it makes sense. But still I truly hate that color choice to be blue, it would have been better to be a darker shade of Golden(orange or so) as the aura of Saiyan God was read/flame-like. No to mention that Toriyama had discarded to use Blue for the BOG Saiyan God because in his opinion blue suggests lower strength than Golden and Magenta does.
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Re: So what exactly is this Blue Super Saiyan God?

Post by Eternal Super Saiyan » Sat Apr 04, 2015 2:20 pm

Dyno wrote:It is a form beyond God, hence its official name "Saiyan beyond God" from Dragon Ball Heroes. Basically, it is Super Saiyan using Super Saiyan God form powers, when you mix these two forms, you get a Saiyan exceeding even God.

I think it is like this. :think:
That was already demonstrated in the Battle of Gods movie. Goku absorbed his God ki in the middle of the fight, then transformed to SSJ with God powers.
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