BoG/Rof & GT are not in the same universe.

[Confidence Matters]

The only difference between GT and BOG & ROF is that GT was stated to be a side-story based on the events of Z - it's canonicity was noted otherwise by AT, and only its canonicity. Which makes it a non-canon continuation.

Side story does not mean not canon. And going by the rules of Dragon Ball asking again would probably even result in different answers because opinions were changed - even if they were different before, which I do not believe.

I am probably GT's biggest defender, and for the longest time held GT just as canon as anything in the universe.

But I recently learned that Akira used the actual words "side-story" to describe GT, and not simply an ambiguous "gaiden" (which could also mean "tale"), in I believe the GT Dragon Box.

I don't know japanese and was told this by Vegetto from here on r/DBZ, so take it for what you will. But if it is true he referred to it as such, using those exact words, GT is not canon.

I guess you can say that Future Trunks' timeline featured in the manga is also a side-story that is obviously canon, but that was a different timeline altogether - so if anything, GT is also a different timeline altogether based on the events of Z.

I guess we will see in the future if AT writes anything that contradicts GT in GT's timeline placement.

[saunasolmu]

Akira Toriyama isn't the sole owner of DB franchise and doesn't have the authority to alone say what is 'canon' and what isn't.

[Kamiccolo9]

"Gaiden" and "side-story" are the same thing. I've already made a big topic on this, which I believe has been posted in this thread already, but anyway, a series' status as a side-story, in and of itself, has no impact on its place in a continuity.

There are other reasons you could exclude GT, if you wanted, but doing so just because of its status as a side-story or a spinoff isn't one of them.

[Confidence Matters]

"Gaiden" and "side-story" are the same thing. I've already made a big topic on this, which I believe has been posted in this thread already, but anyway, a series' status as a side-story, in and of itself, has no impact on its place in a continuity.

There are other reasons you could exclude GT, if you wanted, but doing so just because of its status as a side-story or a spinoff isn't one of them.

I believe the same reasons you can exclude GT, are the exact same reasons you can exclude any material in Dragon Ball.

If the general consensus here is that side-story doesn't mean non-canon nor non-continuity, then GT is 100% canon again.

[Kamiccolo9]

"Gaiden" and "side-story" are the same thing. I've already made a big topic on this, which I believe has been posted in this thread already, but anyway, a series' status as a side-story, in and of itself, has no impact on its place in a continuity.

There are other reasons you could exclude GT, if you wanted, but doing so just because of its status as a side-story or a spinoff isn't one of them.

I believe the same reasons you can exclude GT, are the exact same reasons you can exclude any material in Dragon Ball.

If the general consensus here is that side-story doesn't mean non-canon nor non-continuity, then GT is 100% canon again.

The "general consensus" is irrelevant. The fanbase doesn't decide what the official continuity is.

Canonicity is a totally different matter, and should include everything officially put out under the Dragon Ball name. The problem is that nobody seems to bother to look up what the word "canon" actually means, and just uses it to describe what they think "counts." In all actuality, plot holes and contradictions should have no impact on the canonicity of a work, since they are totally irrelevant to the actual concept.

[Confidence Matters]

"Gaiden" and "side-story" are the same thing. I've already made a big topic on this, which I believe has been posted in this thread already, but anyway, a series' status as a side-story, in and of itself, has no impact on its place in a continuity.

There are other reasons you could exclude GT, if you wanted, but doing so just because of its status as a side-story or a spinoff isn't one of them.

I believe the same reasons you can exclude GT, are the exact same reasons you can exclude any material in Dragon Ball.

If the general consensus here is that side-story doesn't mean non-canon nor non-continuity, then GT is 100% canon again.

The "general consensus" is irrelevant. The fanbase doesn't decide what the official continuity is.

Canonicity is a totally different matter, and should include everything officially put out under the Dragon Ball name. The problem is that nobody seems to bother to look up what the word "canon" actually means, and just uses it to describe what they think "counts." In all actuality, plot holes and contradictions should have no impact on the canonicity of a work, since they are totally irrelevant to the actual concept.

I've been saying this since 2012, word for word!!! It's amazing how this isn't a sticky on here nor on any other serious DB forum (r/DBZ)

[Bacon Skittles]

Akira Toriyama isn't the sole owner of DB franchise and doesn't have the authority to alone say what is 'canon' and what isn't.

He's the creator, he's literally the god of the Dragon Ball Universe. Similar to how George Lucas said that any books/comics after Episode 6 are non-canon. He can say what's canon and what's non-canon. So far he hasn't said that GT doesn't exist, but that it's somewhat of a side story. It can be in a different dimension as he said movies 1-13 are.

[Kamiccolo9]

Akira Toriyama isn't the sole owner of DB franchise and doesn't have the authority to alone say what is 'canon' and what isn't.

He's the creator, he's literally the god of the Dragon Ball Universe. Similar to how George Lucas said that any books/comics after Episode 6 are non-canon. He can say what's canon and what's non-canon. So far he hasn't said that GT doesn't exist, but that it's somewhat of a side story. It can be in a different dimension as he said movies 1-13 are.

And now that George Lucas doesn't own Star Wars, what he says doesn't matter at all.

Stan Lee can't come out and say, definitively, that everything that Marvel did after he stopped writing "doesn't count."

[Duo]

That's really a issue of semantics more than anything else. The term 'canon' is very frequently and consistently misused within the Dragon Ball community. What they mean is "continuity" which is, as far as I know, the most correct term to use.

Many fans have different idea's about what the continuity of Dragon Ball is or should be, but it is very easy to communicate the term "main continuity" (as in completely indisputable inclusions, such as the original Manga), and then something else to describe whatever continuity the Garlic Jr. filler arc took place in, or which one GT took place in. I'm not claiming that GT is necessarily contradictory to the Manga (I don't care), but it would be easy to just say "GT continuity" in discussion to show what one is talking about.

[rereboy]

Canon can and is often used in fiction with the meaning that Dragon Ball fans use for it.

The problem is that the word canon can be used in several contexts, with some differences in what exactly it implies, for example, regarding religion, regarding a certain literary canon (like the American Literary Canon), regarding fiction, etc.

Regarding fiction, which is what matters to Dragon Ball, canon can be defined as the material accepted as part of the story in an individual universe of that story, which basically only really matters when there's multiple works or media since only then what has canonicity and what doesn't might be in doubt. That's the case with Dragon Ball.

[Confidence Matters]

Whatever, as long as it's established that Godku is is indeed in GT from the first second of the series because it is based on all Z manga events.

[Bacon Skittles]

Whatever, as long as it's established that Godku is is indeed in GT from the first second of the series because it is based on all Z manga events.

GT is a combination of the Anime and movies. If anything it's a sequel to a version of the anime universe where the movies take place.

Elements in GT taken from movies:
*Dead roaming Earth (Fusion Reborn)
*Goku and Vegeta already knowing the Fusion Dance and creating Gogeta (Fusion Reborn)
*Tuffles having their revenge (Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans)
*Cooler appears (Cooler's Revenge)
*Trunks having the Brave Sword (Wrath of the Dragon)

With the exception of Wrath of the Dragon and Cooler's Revenge, the films conflict with the manga canon. Fusion Reborn is the worst offender. If GT was in the same continuity as BoG/RoF then there would be no reason for Goku to use Super Saiyan 4 when SSGSS is far superior. Also Goku fought Cell and Freeza in Hell. If the events of the new films took place in the same continuity as GT then Freeza would have no excuse to use his Golden Form. So let's say that Goku somehow lost his God ki before GT. If that was the case then Freeza, in his non Gold Form, would easily have been able to defeat kid Goku.

[Confidence Matters]

GT is a combination of the Anime and movies.

Doesn't mean GT is in the same continuation of the movies, since GT was specifically stated to be BASED on the events of Z. GT was stated to be the next chapter of the dragon ball journey.

If anything it's a sequel to a version of the anime universe where the movies take place.

Elements in GT taken from movies:
*Dead roaming Earth (Fusion Reborn)
*Goku and Vegeta already knowing the Fusion Dance and creating Gogeta (Fusion Reborn)
*Tuffles having their revenge (Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans)
*Cooler appears (Cooler's Revenge)
*Trunks having the Brave Sword (Wrath of the Dragon)

You said it yourself - these were simply elements taken from Toei's previous works. Nothing more. Where is Uub in ANY of the DBZ movie?

With the exception of Wrath of the Dragon and Cooler's Revenge, the films conflict with the manga canon. Fusion Reborn is the worst offender.

Perhaps.

If GT was in the same continuity as BoG/RoF then there would be no reason for Goku to use Super Saiyan 4 when SSGSS is far superior.

lol GT SSJ4 Goku is either >500 or >4000-fold SSj God. Since it is stated that GT is a continuation of the Z events, which now include BOG & ROF, Goku is automatically a stronger version of the new Bluper Saiyan, since he trained after ROF with Goten and then much later with Uub.

Also Goku fought Cell and Freeza in Hell. If the events of the new films took place in the same continuity as GT then Freeza would have no excuse to use his Golden Form. So let's say that Goku somehow lost his God ki before GT. If that was the case then Freeza, in his non Gold Form, would easily have been able to defeat kid Goku.

The golden form has a massive weakness, like 100% full power form that Frieza also didn't use in Hell, because he realized their weaknesses. Like Goku, Frieza most likely figured his final form was more efficient, much like Goku realized SSJ1 was more efficient than SSJ Grade 1 or SSJ Grade 2.

So Friea trained his final form to reach oustanding power while eliminating any weakness.

He still got mollywhopped by Godku because that's literally the only way he could have handled a Frieza AND A CELL who trained for as long as they did. Goku had to be stronger than he was in ROF to handle a well-trained Cell and Frieza.

lol @ this forum autocorrecting Fr(i)eza to Freeza

[Darkprince410]

If GT was in the same continuity as BoG/RoF then there would be no reason for Goku to use Super Saiyan 4 when SSGSS is far superior.

lol GT SSJ4 Goku is either >500 or >4000-fold SSj God. Since it is stated that GT is a continuation of the Z events, which now include BOG & ROF, Goku is automatically a stronger version of the new Bluper Saiyan, since he trained after ROF with Goten and then much later with Uub.

Except that it, at best, only works as a continuation of the anime events of Z, since it acknowledges filler content and the first thirteen Z movies as being in the same continuity as it. It acknowledges movies 5, 6, and 13 in its same continuity, and since those movies (the first two mentioned in particular) don't fit in the manga's continuity, then neither can GT.

[Confidence Matters]

If GT was in the same continuity as BoG/RoF then there would be no reason for Goku to use Super Saiyan 4 when SSGSS is far superior.

lol GT SSJ4 Goku is either >500 or >4000-fold SSj God. Since it is stated that GT is a continuation of the Z events, which now include BOG & ROF, Goku is automatically a stronger version of the new Bluper Saiyan, since he trained after ROF with Goten and then much later with Uub.

Except that it, at best, only works as a continuation of the anime events of Z, since it acknowledges filler content and the first thirteen Z movies as being in the same continuity as it. It acknowledges movies 5, 6, and 13 in its same continuity, and since those movies (the first two mentioned in particular) don't fit in the manga's continuity, then neither can GT.

All of the elements borrowed from previous Toei works isn't part of the canon - they are just cameos/nods.

Just like Dr. Slump is proven to be tied/within the continuity of Dragon Ball, yet it would literally be impossible since it isn't in the same continuity due to many, many plot holes that conflict with Dragon Ball. At best Dr. Slump is also a cameo that would break DB otherwise.

GT having "filler' elements and cameos/elements from the movies does not invalidate GT's continuation to the Z manga events. It creates discrepancies and plot holes, yes - all material, canon or otherwise has them in DB - but it does not invalidate GT's continuation of the dragon ball journey. Refer to Dr. SLump and its crazy plot holes yet still within the continuity of Dragon Ball.

[Darkprince410]

Even if, and I mean if, Coola's brief appearance was solely an appearance just for a cameo, the major and repeated use of the Dragon Fist, a technique that solely appeared in movie 13, isn't something so easy to sweep under the rug. It was critical in the defeat of Super #17, finished off San Shinlon, and, with a combination of the Kamehameha, nearly destroyed Ii Shinlon as well. Why is it used so much in GT yet not in either Battle of Gods or Revival of F, despite it clearly being an extremely powerful and readily usable attack, especially when it came to fighting Beerus, who he was at a disadvantage against power wise? Simple. Movie 13 doesn't exist in the same continuity as the manga, thus it doesn't exist in the same continuity as Battle of Gods or Revival of F. Since GT clearly does exist in the same continuity as movie 13 (due to the repeated and critical use of said technique, which can't be brushed aside as just a "cameo"), then it too cannot exist in the same continuity as Battle of Gods or Revival of F.

[Kamiccolo9]

Even if, and I mean if, Coola's brief appearance was solely an appearance just for a cameo, the major and repeated use of the Dragon Fist, a technique that solely appeared in movie 13, isn't something so easy to sweep under the rug. It was critical in the defeat of Super #17, finished off San Shinlon, and, with a combination of the Kamehameha, nearly destroyed Ii Shinlon as well. Why is it used so much in GT yet not in either Battle of Gods or Revival of F, despite it clearly being an extremely powerful and readily usable attack, especially when it came to fighting Beerus, who he was at a disadvantage against power wise? Simple. Movie 13 doesn't exist in the same continuity as the manga, thus it doesn't exist in the same continuity as Battle of Gods or Revival of F. Since GT clearly does exist in the same continuity as movie 13 (due to the repeated and critical use of said technique, which can't be brushed aside as just a "cameo"), then it too cannot exist in the same continuity as Battle of Gods or Revival of F.

Why does the use of one technique (the origin of which, by the way, is never given, either in GT or Movie 13) render them in the same continuity? That's a huuuuuuuge leap in logic.

[Darkprince410]

Why does the use of one technique (the origin of which, by the way, is never given, either in GT or Movie 13) render them in the same continuity? That's a huuuuuuuge leap in logic.

Movie 13 is the only other time that the technique is ever showed, and even though the technique's origin isn't given in either movie 13 or GT, movie 13 still serves to be its debut. It'd be like if the fusion dance never appeared in the manga or anime at all, and its first and only appearance, in Z, was in movie 12. Then, come the final part of GT, Vegeta brings up them using the dance to fuse and defeat Ii Shinlon. Since the only other time the technique would have been used would have been movie 12, it'd make far more sense, logically, to assume they exist in the same continuity than for them to exist in two separate continuities and the same technique just happens to appear in both.

That's essentially how it is here. I think it's a far, far bigger leap in logic to assume that this technique, which, prior to GT, made its only appearance in movie 13, somehow came to be created in two different continuities than it is to assume that they share the same continuity.

[Kamiccolo9]

Why does the use of one technique (the origin of which, by the way, is never given, either in GT or Movie 13) render them in the same continuity? That's a huuuuuuuge leap in logic.

Movie 13 is the only other time that the technique is ever showed, and even though the technique's origin isn't given in either movie 13 or GT, movie 13 still serves to be its debut. It'd be like if the fusion dance never appeared in the manga or anime at all, and its first and only appearance, in Z, was in movie 12. Then, come the final part of GT, Vegeta brings up them using the dance to fuse and defeat Ii Shinlon. Since the only other time the technique would have been used would have been movie 12, it'd make far more sense, logically, to assume they exist in the same continuity than for them to exist in two separate continuities and the same technique just happens to appear in both.

Or, it's just a technique that Toei decided to reuse. Saying that GT has to be in the same continuity as M13 just because of Goku's punch is, again, a huuuuuuge leap in logic. Why can't it appear in both continuities?

[ekrolo2]

To be fair, Dragon Fist should totally appear in the manga cont movies.