What if the SSG was permanent...?

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What if the SSG was permanent...?

Post by Low Tone G » Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:22 am

Simple Question:

What if the Red Super Saiyan God was permanent for Goku? Could he power on and off the form? My opinion is that he couldn't. The form in not a Super Saiyan transformation which unleashes the inner power. The Saiyan God in an evolution of a normal being into a higher one as his life force is something else(God Ki). I think Goku would have stayed in his skinny, red haired body.

What do you think?
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Re: What if the SSG was permanent...?

Post by Chuquita » Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:34 am

I wouldn't mind, I have notorious ♡ for Gokû's ssjg mode, but I would miss his base form.

Head canon wise I took that 70% power line and ran with it as him being able to control (sort of) how much ssjg power is flipped on (like adjusting the lighting on your phone) and the higher it's on, the closer to ssjg's appearance he has. But if he has it flipped up high for too long it becomes a challenge to power it down.
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Re: What if the SSG was permanent...?

Post by Marlowe89 » Wed Apr 22, 2015 7:40 am

Low Tone G wrote:Simple Question:

What if the Red Super Saiyan God was permanent for Goku? Could he power on and off the form? My opinion is that he couldn't. The form in not a Super Saiyan transformation which unleashes the inner power. The Saiyan God in an evolution of a normal being into a higher one as his life force is something else(God Ki)
The reason he couldn't is not because it's "not a Super Saiyan transformation" (it is, confirmed by the name itself) but rather because it requires the ritual to tap into again. Goku no longer needs the ritual though because he can tap into the power on his own - Beerus calls Goku a prodigy for absorbing its power, which implies that's not something that can normally be acheived.

It seems that SSGSS is a work-around for this, allowing Goku to reach the full power of SSG without needing the ritual or the actual transformation itself which has a short time limit.

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Re: What if the SSG was permanent...?

Post by Low Tone G » Wed Apr 22, 2015 9:15 am

Marlowe89 wrote:
Low Tone G wrote:Simple Question:

What if the Red Super Saiyan God was permanent for Goku? Could he power on and off the form? My opinion is that he couldn't. The form in not a Super Saiyan transformation which unleashes the inner power. The Saiyan God in an evolution of a normal being into a higher one as his life force is something else(God Ki)
The reason he couldn't is not because it's "not a Super Saiyan transformation" (it is, confirmed by the name itself) but rather because it requires the ritual to tap into again. Goku no longer needs the ritual though because he can tap into the power on his own - Beerus calls Goku a prodigy for absorbing its power, which implies that's not something that can normally be acheived.

It seems that SSGSS is a work-around for this, allowing Goku to reach the full power of SSG without needing the ritual or the actual transformation itself which has a short time limit.
First of all I think the name of "Super" is misleading. It's not a Super Saiyan transformation in a sense that doesn't draw latent power like the golden forms do, but it's something that changes the nature of the being. I think that you misunderstood me. I was making a theory as if the ritual would grant Goku(ir other Saiyans) a state with no time limit(so permanent God state). Basing on that, what would happen to Goku's normal form, it would disappear forever or he could power it on and off just like he does with the Super Saiyan levels?
So being that Goku's Ki was changed and his appearance was also changed, I think if his God's state was permanent, his God appearance would also stayed permanent.
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Re: What if the SSG was permanent...?

Post by Marlowe89 » Wed Apr 22, 2015 10:44 am

How is it misleading? It's a temporary transformation that drastically amplifies the user's current power like every other Super Saiyan form and consumes energy, the only difference is that it boosts the user to heights that are otherwise impossible to reach naturally (for Goku, at least, until he absorbed its power) presumably due to God ki. It's important to remember that "Super Saiyan" doesn't really have a strict definition.

So really, who knows? The form itself isn't permanent at all, and if it was, we don't exactly have much to go on. There's nothing to indicate either way if it could be powered down. I'd personally wager that it could, but I could also be wrong.

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Re: What if the SSG was permanent...?

Post by Hitiro » Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:01 am

Marlowe89 wrote:How is it misleading? It's a temporary transformation that drastically amplifies the user's current power like every other Super Saiyan form and consumes energy, the only difference is that it boosts the user to heights that are otherwise impossible to reach naturally (for Goku, at least, until he absorbed its power) presumably due to God ki. It's important to remember that "Super Saiyan" doesn't really have a strict definition.

So really, who knows? The form itself isn't permanent at all, and if it was, we don't exactly have much to go on. There's nothing to indicate either way if it could be powered down.
Does it drastically amplify the user's current power like every other SSJ form? Because the form seems to have amplified Goku's power by converting his regular Ki into a better, more potent, version. Godly Ki. So in that way the SSJ and SSJGod are completely different. Because SSJ does not change the Ki into a new form. It just amplifies it.

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Re: What if the SSG was permanent...?

Post by Chuquita » Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:04 am

If it was perm, I'd liked to have gotten some scenes of Gokû adjusting to it; accidentally setting things on fire, discovering his dougis no longer fit him so he has to get Piccolo to clothes beam up some new ones in his new size, etc. Only thing I got was that subtle 'Gokû inspecting his now-slim arms' scene, which I did enjoy.
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Re: What if the SSG was permanent...?

Post by Marlowe89 » Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:09 am

Hitiro wrote:Because the form seems to have amplified Goku's power by converting his regular Ki into a better, more potent, version. Godly Ki.
We know that the form imbues Godly ki, we don't know if that new fuel is the sole reason for such a dramatic power increase. We're just told that the user's power is boosted by the transformation - that's what the movie attributes it to, in any case.

And regardless of their individual differences, my point is that whatever defines "Super Saiyan" is a lot more fluid than what is sometimes believed.

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Re: What if the SSG was permanent...?

Post by Hitiro » Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:19 am

Marlowe89 wrote:We know that the form imbues Godly ki, we don't know if that new fuel is the sole reason for such a dramatic power increase. We're just told that the user's power is boosted by the transformation - that's what the movie attributes it to, in any case.

And regardless of their individual differences, my point is that whatever defines "Super Saiyan" is a lot more fluid than what is sometimes believed.
The form is still fundamentally different from the other SSJ forms. It's the only one to convert Ki into another type. That sets it out from the other SSJ forms. So you can't really compare them. We can't really say that the definition of SSJ is a lot more fluid than what is believed. Because up until SSJGod appeared it was always just a form that give blonde hair, blue eyes and amplified regular Ki.

Only with the premise of the BoG movie could we possibly change the definition of what SSJ is. But that is debatable too because there are more transformations that fit the original definition. So this is something new.

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Re: What if the SSG was permanent...?

Post by Marlowe89 » Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:32 am

Hitiro wrote:The form is still fundamentally different from the other SSJ forms. It's the only one to convert Ki into another type. That sets it out from the other SSJ forms. So you can't really compare them. We can't really say that the definition of SSJ is a lot more fluid than what is believed. Because up until SSJGod appeared it was always just a form that give blonde hair, blue eyes and amplified regular Ki.

Only with the premise of the BoG movie could we possibly change the definition of what SSJ is. But that is debatable too because there are more transformations that fit the original definition. So this is something new.
I'm not disputing that it's something new or fundamentally different, I'm saying that it has enough similarities to the other transformations to nonetheless be coined "Super Saiyan". Apparently, the film agrees with me so I find it a bit pointless to argue with official terminology.

Definition-wise, these forms have been incredibly fluid ever since the introduction of GT's Super Saiyan 4. Appearance-wise, Super Saiyan 3 was pretty heavily distinguished from the original form, with different hair, pupils and defined brow ridges - only the hair color remained the same. It was never really established to be all that narrowly defined.

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Re: What if the SSG was permanent...?

Post by Hitiro » Wed Apr 22, 2015 12:27 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:I'm not disputing that it's something new or fundamentally different, I'm saying that it has enough similarities to the other transformations to nonetheless be coined "Super Saiyan". Apparently, the film agrees with me so I find it a bit pointless to argue with official terminology.

Definition-wise, these forms have been incredibly fluid ever since the introduction of GT's Super Saiyan 4. Appearance-wise, Super Saiyan 3 was pretty heavily distinguished from the original form, with different hair, pupils and defined brow ridges - only the hair color remained the same. It was never really established to be all that narrowly defined.
The only similarities it has to the other transformations is that it amplifies his power. Kaioken did that too and nobody is putting it in the same category as "Super Saiyan".

It already seemed like the SSJ forms grew hair anyway before SSJ3 was introduced. It's only real variance is the eyes and eyebrows. And as for SSJ4 it does say that its name is just for convenience because it is completely different from what we know SSJ is.
GT Perfect Files Vol. 1 wrote:It is called Super Saiyan 4 out of convenience, but due to it being a transformation from Golden Oozaru, it would be no exaggeration to call it a different species from all previous Super Saiyans!! Thinking of it as a different species, you could also name such points as the fact that unlike with 3 he has an adult appearance, despite being a transformation of little Goku.

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Re: What if the SSG was permanent...?

Post by Marlowe89 » Wed Apr 22, 2015 12:40 pm

Hitiro wrote:The only similarities it has to the other transformations is that it amplifies his power. Kaioken did that too and nobody is putting it in the same category as "Super Saiyan".
Kaioken isn't unique to Saiyans, so of course it isn't in the same category. This doesn't help your argument. Unlike Kaioken, SSG also induces physical changes.
It already seemed like the SSJ forms grew hair anyway before SSJ3 was introduced. It's only real variance is the eyes and eyebrows. And as for SSJ4 it does say that its name is just for convenience because it is completely different from what we know SSJ is.
Super Saiyan 2's hair was never confirmed to be longer than Super Saiyan's, so no, the variances are the eyes, eyebrows and drastic hair length - all pretty significant differences. SS2 was also originally given a different name, and Toriyama has recently declared that 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered up variations of Super Saiyan, so in that regard they can pretty much all be considered to be coined for convenience's sake.

I'm not even sure what your argument is. It's called "Super Saiyan God" and even has its own corresponding legend and prophecy, so it's definitely a Super Saiyan something. There's nothing inaccurate about the "super" in the title. Take it up with Toriyama or Toei if you're that bothered by it.
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Re: What if the SSG was permanent...?

Post by Hitiro » Wed Apr 22, 2015 12:51 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:Kaioken is more of a power-up than a transformation and isn't unique to Saiyans, so of course it isn't in the same category. This doesn't help your argument.
That was just an example to make a point. Like I said, the only similarities the forms have is that it amplifies power.
Marlowe89 wrote:Super Saiyan 2's hair was never confirmed to be longer than Super Saiyan's, so no, the variances are the eyes, eyebrows and drastic hair length - all pretty significant differences. SS2 was also originally given a different name, and Toriyama has recently declared that 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered up variations of Super Saiyan, so in that regard they can pretty much all be considered to be coined for convenience's sake.
Gohan certainly didn't look to have that much hair before he transformed but I was looking more to the graded forms. You can clearly see that Goku has a lot more hair in his third grade form. Same for Trunks in my opinion.
Marlowe89 wrote:I'm not even sure what your argument is. It's called "Super Saiyan God" and even has its own corresponding legend and prophecy, so it's definitely a Super Saiyan something. There's nothing inaccurate about the "super" in the title.
It may just be called that for convenience during the time it was found(Because Goku named SSJ2 and SSJ3 just because he could). Somebody came up for the name at the time. And SSJ existed before it. So they decided to call it SSJGod. That was passed down through legend, like the original SSJ. The facts are it isn't in the same vein of SSJ. The only thing it keeps in accordance to the SSJ forms is power amplification. It may as well have been called God Saiyan.

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Re: What if the SSG was permanent...?

Post by Marlowe89 » Wed Apr 22, 2015 1:16 pm

Hitiro wrote:That was just an example to make a point. Like I said, the only similarities the forms have is that it amplifies power.
But you're not making a point. Kaioken isn't unique to the Saiyan race and just manifests an aura around Goku. SSG actually modifies Goku's body, hair and eyes. It has its own fable. It can only be initiated by a Saiyan. There are certainly more thematic similarities between SS and SSG than Kaioken and SS, so your analogy here simply doesn't work.
Gohan certainly didn't look to have that much hair before he transformed but I was looking more to the graded forms. You can clearly see that Goku has a lot more hair in his third grade form. Same for Trunks in my opinion.
Gohan's hair was just spiked more, and his hair at the time was nearly identical to Goku's. The graded forms are nothing more than bulked up variations of SS1 and have nothing to do with the transition from SS2 to SS3, and neither form has the same dramatic hair length, physique or eyes as SS3. You appear to be getting caught up in semantics - my point is just that SS3 is vastly different to the other forms in appearance, so as a whole the definition of Super Saiyan's appearance isn't rigid at all.
It may just be called that for convenience during the time it was found(Because Goku named SSJ2 and SSJ3 just because he could). Somebody came up for the name at the time. And SSJ existed before it. So they decided to call it SSJGod. That was passed down through legend, like the original SSJ. The facts are it isn't in the same vein of SSJ. It may as well have been called God Saiyan.
Every Super Saiyan form was given a name by someone at some point. Regardless, the Super Saiyan God tale was actually a forgotten myth that preceded the Super Saiyan legend according to the film, so it was really the first Saiyan transformation to be coined with "super" in the title in-universe. For all we know, Super Saiyan could be an imitation or weaker variation of Super Saiyan God.

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Re: What if the SSG was permanent...?

Post by Hitiro » Wed Apr 22, 2015 1:42 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:Gohan's hair was just spiked more, and his hair at the time was nearly identical to Goku's. The graded forms are nothing more than bulked up variations of SS1 and have nothing to do with the transition from SS2 to SS3, and neither form has the same dramatic hair length, physique or eyes as SS3. You appear to be getting caught up in semantics - my point is just that SS3 is vastly different to the other forms in appearance, so as a whole the definition of Super Saiyan's appearance isn't rigid at all.
Didn't Akira Toriyama say that SSJ2 and SSJ3 are just powered up variations of SSJ? So why discredit the graded forms and exclude them from the SSJ definition because they are also "variations" on the SSJ form? SSJ3 is only slightly different than the other SSJ forms in that it gives them pupils and a protruding forehead. Still has all the previous definitions of a SSJ too. I still think SSJ2 gave Gohan more hair. And I also feel that way about the original SSJ as well in the case of Goku.
Marlowe89 wrote:Every Super Saiyan form was given a name by someone at some point. Regardless, the Super Saiyan God tale was actually a forgotten myth that preceded the Super Saiyan legend according to the film, so it was really the first Saiyan transformation to be coined with "super" in the title in-universe.
How does the SSJGod tale precede the SSJ legend? Is this stated? The Saiyan's needed to go SSJ to initiate the transformation so why would the SSJGod legend precede the SSJ legend?

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Re: What if the SSG was permanent...?

Post by Marlowe89 » Wed Apr 22, 2015 2:11 pm

Hitiro wrote:Didn't Akira Toriyama say that SSJ2 and SSJ3 are just powered up variations of SSJ? So why discredit the graded forms and exclude them from the SSJ definition because they are also "variations" on the SSJ form? SSJ3 is only slightly different than the other SSJ forms in that it gives them pupils and a protruding forehead. Still has all the previous definitions of a SSJ too. I still think SSJ2 gave Gohan more hair. And I also feel that way about the original SSJ as well in the case of Goku.
He did say that, but I brought it up because you stated that Super Saiyan wasn't fluid from a conceptual design standpoint. This couldn't be further from the truth, as SS3's appearance objectively has more differences than similarities compared to the other forms. The only real similarities are the golden hair and aura - everything else is entirely unique to that form. The graded forms aren't considered different forms from SS1, but even if they were, their hair length doesn't remotely resemble SS3's.

You can certainly assume that the first two Super Saiyan forms have more hair than base, but this isn't at all obvious unlike Super Saiyan 3.
How does the SSJGod tale precede the SSJ legend? Is this stated? The Saiyan's needed to go SSJ to initiate the transformation so why would the SSJGod legend precede the SSJ legend?
Shenron calls it a myth that had been forgotten over time once evil took root on Planet Vegeta. The Super Saiyan legend wasn't. He also doesn't state that the Saiyans needed to go Super Saiyan or that it happened in the myth, but even if that was a requirement it just presupposes some kind of connection between the golden form and Super Saiyan God. To go even further, Shenron also clarifies that a pure hearted Saiyan is needed to reach that specific transformation, further establishing the similarities between SS and SSG.

Super Saiyan God might introduce new mechanics, but the notion that it doesn't share anything at all with the regular Super Saiyan form is false given their thematic similarities, backgrounds and terminology. Again, there's nothing to argue with here aside from Toei and Toriyama himself.
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Re: What if the SSG was permanent...?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:33 pm

... What are you guys talking about? Goku can freely transform into Super Saiyan God after he absorbed its power, as he showed in his fight with Beerus.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: What if the SSG was permanent...?

Post by Low Tone G » Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:54 pm

I'm more inclined to call the form Saiyan God, just because it doesn't need the Saiyans to be Super ones. The source of it is totally different than of Super Saiyan forms.
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Re: What if the SSG was permanent...?

Post by Marlowe89 » Wed Apr 22, 2015 4:06 pm

Low Tone G wrote:I'm more inclined to call the form Saiyan God, just because it doesn't need the Saiyans to be Super ones. The source of it is totally different than of Super Saiyan forms.
To be clear, there's nothing wrong with calling it "Saiyan God" if you wish to do so. I'm only maintaining that it's incorrect to claim there's no legitimate connection between the magenta and golden forms on a conceptual level, so the "Super" is perfectly valid as well. The source isn't totally different either since both involve pure-hearted Saiyans.

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Re: What if the SSG was permanent...?

Post by Saiyan007 » Wed Apr 22, 2015 6:31 pm

Low Tone G wrote:Simple Question:

What if the Red Super Saiyan God was permanent for Goku? Could he power on and off the form? My opinion is that he couldn't. The form in not a Super Saiyan transformation which unleashes the inner power. The Saiyan God in an evolution of a normal being into a higher one as his life force is something else(God Ki). I think Goku would have stayed in his skinny, red haired body.

What do you think?
Well in BOG he did go back into the form to absorb Beerus attack.

I like to think Goku only needs two forms now.

Saiyan God(red hair) and his Super Saiyan God form(blue hair).

He probably didn't turn into the Saiyan God form in ROF becuase of the form's time limit where as Super Saiyan God doesn't have one and it's a stronger form

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