Real Revival Of [F] plot holes/discrepencies

[Confidence Matters]

One of the major plot holes that makes me scratch my head and question Akira's merit for creating quality dragon ball content in the future (I'm already sensing more plot holes from Dragon Ball Super) is the fact that Frieza trains and increases his power level exponentially, when he had the perfect opportunity to do just that to rematch Goku back in the Future Trunks saga.

If you rewind to when he destroyed Namek and lost to Goku, his dad found him in space somehow and then rebuilt him.

What's the very first thing he does?

Head toward Earth to kill everyone Goku loves, and then fight Goku again with the exact same strength he had when he lost. To fight Goku who is clearly superior and now probably stronger than he was as SSJ1 Goku on Namek. To fight Goku, who would obviously show you zero mercy upon arrival and who would easily 1-shot KO you and then your father as well (especially since it is show that 1. Goku could easily beat them both, and 2. they wouldn't have double-teamed him because they didn't do so to Future Trunks... hell, the alternate event where Goku defeats them both proves that Goku would STILL handle them both regardless).

If it takes Frieza realizing Goku is too strong for him in order to trigger Frieza training for the first time ever, why the hell didn't he train with his father for at LEAST an hour or so on the way to Earth!?!? He wouldn't even need to train hard, nor long, to surpass the entire Z warriors' levels combined. Probably a 15 minute-sparring match against Cold.

Now in ROF all of a sudden, he decides to train out of nowhere, even though before he was even more motivated to do so then he ever was in his entire life.

Second discrepancy is, if the rejuvenation chamber could easily restore him to his full body, why the hell didn't they just throw him in there the first time, when he was in MUCH better shape floating in space to begin with, than he was when he got revived!?!??! Why waste technology that did nothing to Frieza's body nor power by rebuilding Frieza when he could have just regenerated in the chamber?

I'm pretty sure there's some more, but those are the one's I can think of right now

Discuss

[Zephyr]

Oh hey, it's these things that have already been discussed for months. Neither of these are plotholes.

1. He was cocky/thought Goku got lucky/etc. It took actually being bested a second time, and being killed, before he thought that he needed to actually better himself. He didn't think that he could improve dramatically until he was informed that a stupid monkey could defeat Majin Buu, so it's possible he previously didn't even think of the possibility of training to become stronger.

2. Technology is in fact allowed to progress over the course of a decade.

[Lord Beerus]

First off, look up the term "plot hole" because you don't seem to really understand what it means and it seems like you're just throwing in the term loosely, and second, don't refer to Akira Toriyama as "Akira", like he's somebody you know personally. That is quite rude and unnecessary.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The first one isn't a plot-hole, Freeza was just too proud to accept that he would need training to surpass a monkey, and was confident enough to his new power-up from the mechanical parts, plus his dad on his side.

As for the second one, it was stated in the movie that the technology had evolved from the past, which is why they could fully restore him now.

[Confidence Matters]

The first one isn't a plot-hole, Freeza was just too proud to accept that he would need training to surpass a monkey, and was confident enough to his new power-up from the mechanical parts, plus his dad on his side.

None of this is stated. Neither was Frieza getting powered up in his mecha form.

As for the second one, it was stated in the movie that the technology had evolved from the past, which is why they could fully restore him now.

Well is there a link to that statement?

[Confidence Matters]

First off, look up the term "plot hole" because you don't seem to really understand what it means and it seems like you're just throwing in the term loosely, and second, don't refer to Akira Toriyama as "Akira", like he's somebody you know personally. That is quite rude and unnecessary.

Brilliant rebuttal to the main post.

Wait. You didn't address a single point.

And you talk about rude and unnecessary.

[Confidence Matters]

Oh hey, it's these things that have already been discussed for months. Neither of these are plotholes.

1. He was cocky/thought Goku got lucky/etc.

Other than in your own DB fiction, specifically where is it stated that this was Frieza's state of mind?

It took actually being bested a second time, and being killed, before he thought that he needed to actually better himself. He didn't think that he could improve dramatically until he was informed that a stupid monkey could defeat Majin Buu, so it's possible he previously didn't even think of the possibility of training to become stronger.

Goku practically killed Frieza on Namek. Actually dying is no different than what he went through against Goku. In fact, it actually was worse being embarrassed and being showed mercy by a monkey - which was exactly Goku's plan... to break Frieza's spirit rather than kill him. This would be the ultimate motivating factor that would make Frieza train at least for 15 minutes before facing Goku & the Z warriors again.

2. Technology is in fact allowed to progress over the course of a decade.

[/quote]

Except it's still the rejuvenation chamber from back then, I have yet to see a statement that says it is more advanced. Since the movie has yet to release in the states, and I haven't seen a subbed version anywhere.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

None of this is stated. Neither was Freeza getting powered up in his mecha form.

Freeza being confident to his new power-up & his dad with him was stated in the manga.

Chapter: 330 (DBZ 136), P13.3-4
Cold: “The Earthlings don’t matter, but the Super Saiyan alone we absolutely must exterminate, by any means. The one who holds the greatest power in the universe must without a doubt be our clan”
Freeza: “We can definitely defeat him if we go at him together, Papa. And I’ve powered up too, so I think I can probably go alone.”

And Freeza getting a power-up from his mechanical parts is also stated in the Daizenshuu:

Freeza had tenaciously been revived and became a demon of vengeance. Through mechanization, he had obtained even more gigantic power, but he is completely powerless before Super Saiyan Trunks. Easily dodging Freeza's sneak attack, Trunks finely chops up Freeza and then finally eradicates the remaining pieces.

FnF confirms the statment in the Daizenshuu, since it was stated that he never trained before, which means that he didn't train to become stronger as Mecha Freeza.

And while it isn't stated that he didn't train because he was too proud... it's very obvious, knowing his personality.

Well is there a link to that statement?

[Doctor.]

Kanzenshuu's summary clearly says that the healing chambers are more advanced.

Freeza does slightly remember him, but is more interested in the fact that he appears to have come back to life. Sorbet explains that they have done so with a combination of the Dragon Balls and the latest-type regeneration machine.

And Freeza mentions that he has powered-up plenty of times when he comes to Earth as Mecha Freeza.

Chapter: 329 (DBZ 135), P14.1
Cold: “A small planet…Wouldn’t it be better if you just wiped it out in one shot?”
Freeza: “That wouldn’t satisfy me…I want to make [Goku] well acquainted with my powered-up self…”

Chapter: 330 (DBZ 136), P13.3-4
Cold: “The Earthlings don’t matter, but the Super Saiyan alone we absolutely must exterminate, by any means. The one who holds the greatest power in the universe must without a doubt be our clan”
Freeza: “We can definitely defeat him if we go at him together, Papa. And I’ve powered up too, so I think I can probably go alone.”

None of these are plot holes and none of these would be plot holes even if they were left unanswered.

[Lord Beerus]

Freeza getting stronger through training was never confirmed or denied. And the time it takes for a character in Dragon Ball to strong can vary. Not every character in Dragon Ball has to adhere to the status quo of "you have to train for years for get freakishly strong". Freeza, like Goku, is a fighting prodigy who can make incredible gains in training in short spaces of time. And the reason why he didn't right off the bat? Simple, he was born freakishly strong, and being the arrogant, smug and conceited character he is, he didn't feel the need to train. Even when he was defeated by SSJ Goku.

As fas as the rejuvenation chamber goes, it just a case of the technology in the Planet Trade Organization becoming more advanced during the years of Freeza's absence.

So, no, neither Freeza becoming stronger in a short space of time and the business with the rejuvenation chamber are plot holes.

[Tectorman]

The most plausible series of events as I see it:

Frieza is rescued near the remains of Planet Namek. From Vegeta's recovery from his battle on Earth (specifically the fact that he went from not having a tail to... continuing to not have a tail), we can surmise that there are limits to what regeneration chambers are capable of. He probably was put in one to heal him up a ways, but limb regrowth was beyond their technological abilities at the time. And remember they don't have senzu beans.

To give him a working body, they built a cyborg chassis for everything he'd lost on Namek. He got outclassed by Goku, certainly, but since he can't sense energy and since there weren't any scouters around when Goku went SSJ, he doesn't know by how much. And he did gain power from the cybernetic upgrades; probably the most powerful and advanced cybernetic parts his empire is capable of.

But not even a fraction of what he could accomplish if he trained. Trouble is, Frieza can only practice with one arm. He is not going to get much improvement out of that, nor can he train the cybernetic parts. He has a functional body, one stronger than he was on Namek, but not as strong as he could get with a fully organic body.

So he and King Cold probably demanded that superior regeneration chambers be invented at once, only to be told that that technology was still beyond their abilities. Those scientists were likely killed, and other scientists told to make every effort to improve the technology.

In the meantime, Frieza has a choice: show patience and wait for better technology to come about so he could train and become leaps and bounds more powerful than the Z fighters' wildest dreams, or go ahead and avenge his humiliation now.

I don't think Frieza would have been inclined towards patience.

[Confidence Matters]

Freeza being confident to his new power-up & his dad with him was stated in the manga.

Chapter: 330 (DBZ 136), P13.3-4
Cold: “The Earthlings don’t matter, but the Super Saiyan alone we absolutely must exterminate, by any means. The one who holds the greatest power in the universe must without a doubt be our clan”
Freeza: “We can definitely defeat him if we go at him together, Papa. And I’ve powered up too, so I think I can probably go alone.”

And Freeza getting a power-up from his mechanical parts is also stated in the Daizenshuu:

Freeza had tenaciously been revived and became a demon of vengeance. Through mechanization, he had obtained even more gigantic power, but he is completely powerless before Super Saiyan Trunks. Easily dodging Freeza's sneak attack, Trunks finely chops up Freeza and then finally eradicates the remaining pieces.

That creates a horrible inconsistency in the fact that SSJ1 Goku defeated BOTH of them without any explanation (Goku didn't gain a zenkai as 1. he didn't experience a near-death experience against Frieza and 2. it would have been officially stated somewhere). And if Frieza did somehow become stronger from the mecha parts, he must have known Goku's true power and must have known it would still not be enough. Since it clearly wasn't, hence how Goku was able to kill him. In fact, Frieza even doubts his chances, saying "I can probably go alone." That doesn't sound confident at all. If he were truly arrogant and confident in his "powerup," he would have definitely believed he can take on Goku alone.

This proves that Frieza knew he still wasn't superior to Goku and STILL didn't think about training a LITTLE bit.

The fact that he brings up going against Goku alone proves he wanted to settle that score, and yet he wasn't motivated to train a TINY bit to beat Goku?

Inconsistency still stands.

FnF confirms the statment in the Daizenshuu, since it was stated that he never trained before, which means that he didn't train to become stronger as Mecha Freeza.

This is my point though.

And while it isn't stated that he didn't train because he was too proud... it's very obvious, knowing his personality.

Then Frieza's character is inconsistent, since Frieza trained after he was revived. You can't say it was due to character development since nothing indicates nor states Frieza matured or become smarter etc. He had been dead all that time. You can't say death made him realize anything since he experienced something far worse than death (humiliation, Goku's plan) and that didn't change anything in him, so death wouldn't neither.

[/quote]

Is this from an official source? Looks like a fan scanlation. Can I get a link to the official manga/website?

[Confidence Matters]

The most plausible series of events as I see it:

Freeza is rescued near the remains of Planet Namek. From Vegeta's recovery from his battle on Earth (specifically the fact that he went from not having a tail to... continuing to not have a tail), we can surmise that there are limits to what regeneration chambers are capable of. He probably was put in one to heal him up a ways, but limb regrowth was beyond their technological abilities at the time. And remember they don't have senzu beans.

To give him a working body, they built a cyborg chassis for everything he'd lost on Namek. He got outclassed by Goku, certainly, but since he can't sense energy and since there weren't any scouters around when Goku went SSJ, he doesn't know by how much. And he did gain power from the cybernetic upgrades; probably the most powerful and advanced cybernetic parts his empire is capable of.

But not even a fraction of what he could accomplish if he trained. Trouble is, Freeza can only practice with one arm. He is not going to get much improvement out of that, nor can he train the cybernetic parts. He has a functional body, one stronger than he was on Namek, but not as strong as he could get with a fully organic body.

So he and King Cold probably demanded that superior regeneration chambers be invented at once, only to be told that that technology was still beyond their abilities. Those scientists were likely killed, and other scientists told to make every effort to improve the technology.

In the meantime, Freeza has a choice: show patience and wait for better technology to come about so he could train and become leaps and bounds more powerful than the Z fighters' wildest dreams, or go ahead and avenge his humiliation now.

I don't think Freeza would have been inclined towards patience.

None of this is explained in the manga though. Sorry, but this is just rationalization.

[Hitiro]

1. He was cocky/thought Goku got lucky/etc.

Other than in your own DB fiction, specifically where is it stated that this was Freeza's state of mind?

Why does this need to be stated. It's a perfectly plausible opinion. You can't just deem this a plot hole because nothing is stated. There can be any number of reasons why the events played out the way they did. It's not like what has been said is impossible. Therefore it isn't a plot hole. A plot hole would be a Warrior Type Namekian creating Dragon Balls when we know they can't.

That creates a horrible inconsistency in the fact that SSJ1 Goku defeated BOTH of them without any explanation (Goku didn't gain a zenkai as 1. he didn't experience a near-death experience against Freeza and 2. it would have been officially stated somewhere). And if Freeza did somehow become stronger from the mecha parts, he must have known Goku's true power and must have known it would still not be enough. Since it clearly wasn't, hence how Goku was able to kill him. In fact, Freeza even doubts his chances, saying "I can probably go alone." That doesn't sound confident at all. If he were truly arrogant and confident in his "powerup," he would have definitely believed he can take on Goku alone.

Why would Freeza know what Goku's true power was? Goku on Namek was heavily injured and expended a lot of his energy when he used the KKx20 and fired a Kamehameha. A fully recovered Goku is clearly going to be different from his Namek self. And Freeza doubts he needs help. He doesn't doubt he can do it alone. Otherwise he would have said "I will probably need help." If he had doubts that he couldn't win alone he certainly wouldn't have suggested he could probably do it alone. Saying he could probably do it alone implies that there is more than likely a chance he doesn't need help than he does. Also, Goku doesn't need to gain a Zenkai to gain strength. Just by combating Freeza his strength should increase. Akira Toriyama has already stated that Saiyan's do this.

Only, Saiyans rapidly increase in strength as they fight against strong opponents, so the longer they fought, the more that gap would shrink, and it might even be possible for them to eventually turn the tables.

[Tectorman]

None of this is explained in the manga though. Sorry, but this is just rationalization.

Correct. Totally, completely a rationalization. Mere guesswork and supposition.

It's a theory that fits the facts. One theory among and related to other such theories. But its mere existence as a possible explanation means an explanation is possible. And if an explanation is possible, how is there a plothole?

It would be like complaining that since Goku died from the Special Beam Cannon not wearing his weighted training clothes, it must be a plothole that he's later wearing those heavy clothes on King Kai's planet. He was escorted to the Check-In Station by Kami, the very guy that gave him the clothes in the first place. Kami could well have created another set while they were waiting in line. It's not specifically stated that those events played out in exactly that manner, but does it honestly need to be?

[Marlowe89]

In fact, Freeza even doubts his chances, saying "I can probably go alone." That doesn't sound confident at all. If he were truly arrogant and confident in his "powerup," he would have definitely believed he can take on Goku alone.

You're clearly not reading into context at all. He says he can probably go alone DESPITE King Cold offering to assist him. He doesn't think he even needs his father's help. That's textbook arrogance, and it's a statement that fits Freeza's character perfectly. If he doubted himself, he clearly wouldn't have been confident enough to just brush King Cold aside like that.

In regards to the film itself, an official explanation is already given - he specifically says “So I wonder what will happen if I draw out my full potential through training", implying that the idea of training never occurred to him since he was both extremely arrogant and already insanely powerful naturally. It is, in fact, perfectly plausible that someone born with a power as unnaturally high as Freeza's could become on par with the likes of Super Saiyan God via actual training. It certainly doesn't take any logical leaps to reach this conclusion.

There are no character inconsistencies because it's clear that Freeza doesn't really start reflecting on these ideas until he learns that a mere Saiyan could beat the monster that his own father told him to never go near.

[Confidence Matters]

Why does this need to be stated.

LOL.

It's a perfectly plausible opinion.

Okay, so you have no concrete proof of anything.

You can't just deem this a plot hole because nothing is stated. There can be any number of reasons why the events played out the way they did. It's not like what has been said is impossible. Therefore it isn't a plot hole.

Fan rationalizations do not fix plot holes. Any plot hole can be explained away unofficially. They're meaningless.

A plot hole would be a Warrior Type Namekian creating Dragon Balls when we know they can't.

By your logic, let's rationalize: Piccolo instead of increasing his powers to match the saiyans, instead focused on his magic and was cunning enough to learn how to create strong dragon balls. He is half Kami after all. Or simply, Dende taught Piccolo how to create dragon balls.

Explained officially? No. Does this fix the plot hole? No. It's still a glaring plot hole.

ANother plot rationalized away: Cooler appearing in GT wasn't Cooler, but a random dude who just looks like Cooler. Like when in the ROF manga, a random Ledgic-like dude appeared.

Explained officially? No. Does this fix the plot hole? No. It's still a glaring plot hole.

I know you're a massive GT-hater, so you have about a billion more plot holes, but you get the idea.

Why would Freeza know what Goku's true power was? Goku on Namek was heavily injured and expended a lot of his energy when he used the KKx20 and fired a Kamehameha. A fully recovered Goku is clearly going to be different from his Namek self.

Except Goku came into that battle with a max battle power of 3,000,000. As he turned SSJ1, which is x50, he had a level of 150,000,000. This was his max power. He wouldn't have been any stronger if he recovered. The only way would be with a zenkai or a long battle with a stronger opponent - none of cases which were present against Freeza.

And Freeza doubts he needs help. He doesn't doubt he can do it alone. Otherwise he would have said "I will probably need help."

“We can definitely defeat him if we go at him together, Papa. And I’ve powered up too, so I think I can probably go alone.”

I THINK I can PROBABLY go alone.

This strongly implies he is unsure of himself. Otherwise he would have said with pride: "stand back, I can definitely take him alone now, don't interfere."

Why would he even bring up Cold & himself vs Goku if he was 100% sure he could defeat Goku on his own.

Plus, as others have pointed out, Freeza was being supremely overconfident charging onto Earth. Yet he still isn't 100% he can kill Goku even with his "powerup"

If he had doubts that he couldn't win alone he certainly wouldn't have suggested he could probably do it alone. Saying he could probably do it alone implies that there is more than likely a chance he doesn't need help than he does.

Overconfidence, Freeza being Freeza. Nothing to see here.

Also, Goku doesn't need to gain a Zenkai to gain strength. Just by combating Freeza his strength should increase. Akira Toriyama has already stated that Saiyan's do this.

Only, Saiyans rapidly increase in strength as they fight against strong opponents, so the longer they fought, the more that gap would shrink, and it might even be possible for them to eventually turn the tables.

Another massive plot hole by Akira. Where was this saiyan trait when Goku was battling Freeza with a power level of 3 million vs. Freeza's 50%? Goku wasn't stated at all to be getting stronger naturally as that fight when on (only through Kaioken). Where was this trait when Goku was battling a suppressed Cell? Full power Goku was not stated to have been getting stronger throughout that battle. At all. Where was this trait when Full Power Goku was battling Kid Boo? His power was actually decreasing at a rapid rate instead. This trait would have either decreased slowly, or not at all with this trait combating the negative effects of SSJ3.

And what about Vegeta SSJ1 against Android 18? lol

And Gohan vs Dabura

etc etc etc

Also, Freeza was NOT a strong opponent to SSJ1 Goku. Goku was 30 million levels above, and Freeza's strength was RAPIDLY decreasing, so SSJ1 Goku did NOT improve from 150,000,000. Nor did he experience a zenkai.

[Confidence Matters]

You're clearly not reading into context at all. He says he can probably go alone DESPITE King Cold offering to assist him.

Cold didn't offer his assistance.

In regards to the film itself, an official explanation is already given - he specifically says “So I wonder what will happen if I draw out my full potential through training", implying that the idea of training never occurred to him since he was both extremely arrogant and already insanely powerful naturally. It is, in fact, perfectly plausible that someone born with a power as unnaturally high as Freeza's could become on par with the likes of Super Saiyan God via actual training. It certainly doesn't take any logical leaps to reach this conclusion.

A conclusion he had to reach when he figured Goku was superior and he wanted revenge on Goku.

The exact situation he was in post-namek in the Trunks saga.

There are no character inconsistencies because it's clear that Freeza doesn't really start reflecting on these ideas until he learns that a mere Saiyan could beat the monster that his own father told him to never go near.

That's the discrepancy. There's no way that that would make him consider training when he suffered an even bigger trauma post-Namek that didn't make him train to kill Goku. Even though he had the PERFECT opportunity to do so with a sparring session or 2 against King Cold.

[Marlowe89]

Cold didn't directly offer to assist him, but he did tag along. The point is that Freeza didn't think he needed daddy's help. Like you said, he was overconfident.

That's the discrepancy. There's no way that that would make him consider training when he suffered an even bigger trauma post-Namek that didn't make him train to kill Goku. Even though he had the PERFECT opportunity to do so with a sparring session or 2 against King Cold.

That's not even close. Your post-Namek example is Freeza's new body modifications giving him the confidence to go toe to toe with a Super Saiyan.

RoF has Freeza learning that Goku defeated an enemy that was leagues above a mere Super Saiyan, not to mention the same enemy Cold warned him to never go near.

The latter is logically far more likely to inspire Freeza to train than the former.

[Darkprince410]

That's the discrepancy. There's no way that that would make him consider training when he suffered an even bigger trauma post-Namek that didn't make him train to kill Goku. Even though he had the PERFECT opportunity to do so with a sparring session or 2 against King Cold.

I think it's a perfect enough reason for him to consider training when he hadn't before. He already thought he was powerful enough, following being turned into a cyborg, to take on Goku, and he had his father to fall back on should he need help. If he had never trained before in his life, why would he suddenly do so following the fight on Namek if he believed that he's powerful enough to beat Goku on his own?

With the situation of Revival of F, he had no alternative to it. He had just learned that Goku had defeated one of the only two individuals in the universe that his father warned him never to bother with, which in turn instantly tells Freeza that Goku's become far more powerful than before. What other alternative did Freeza have then if he wanted to get revenge?