Morality of the Cyborgs

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Morality of the Cyborgs

Post by TJVY » Wed May 13, 2015 10:00 pm

Do you think that the 17 and 18 settled on Earth because of a change in morality? Or because they were surpassed in strength?

I personally like to think that it was a change of morality, I felt that 18 especially realized the nobility of the Z Fighters when Tien put his life on the line to stop Cell from absorbing her. Whilst Tien's intentions weren't necessarily to protect her, she looked incredibly shocked but grateful that he was doing it for her. There was definitely a sense of appreciation towards Piccolo too from both of them.

My examples are specifically based on the anime obviously, but if there are examples from the manga then throw them in too.
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Re: Morality of the Cyborgs

Post by shonenhikada » Wed May 13, 2015 10:04 pm

I don't think 18 gave a damn of Tien putting his life on the line to save her.

However, a question that I would like to discuss in this thread is what sparked the change in morality between the androids in Trunks timeline and the original timeline.

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Re: Morality of the Cyborgs

Post by fadeddreams5 » Wed May 13, 2015 10:05 pm

I just watched the new abridged episode, so I'll just go with what I saw there: it was 16. He liked birds.
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Re: Morality of the Cyborgs

Post by Lord Beerus » Wed May 13, 2015 10:12 pm

Android 17 and 18, despite being programmed to murder Goku, showed little to no interest in actually doing so, despite the constant reminder from Android 16 that they're mission was to kill Goku. And when they did show interest, it was out of pure boredom. Android 17 even states himself that killing Goku was not a priority for him and was nothing than "a chore" or "a game".

For #18 specifically, I think it was down to the fact that Krillin cared so much about despite him not knowing so much about him. For #17 specifically, I honestly don't think he gave a damn about killing Goku in the long run as he didn't go after him when he was brought back to life and decided to find a job and start a family once he realised that the threat in regard to Cell was over. I think, ultimately, he just wanted to live a normal, peaceful life.

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Re: Morality of the Cyborgs

Post by Akyon » Thu May 14, 2015 1:56 am

shonenhikada wrote: However, a question that I would like to discuss in this thread is what sparked the change in morality between the androids in Trunks timeline and the original timeline.
#16. Literally the only thing I can think of. His gentle personality and bonding ended up rubbing off on them enough that Krillin could finish the job.
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Re: Morality of the Cyborgs

Post by TheDevilsCorpse » Thu May 14, 2015 3:32 am

I honestly don't think there was anything different about them between the future and the past in the beginning, the changing events just prevented the evolution that occurred the first time around. I also don't think it was any single instance, but just everything coming together to alter their character development trajectory.

Having 16 around may have helped to knock their progression into bored, cold blooded killers off course, but they still beat the heroes to near death and the only reason they live is because they were prepared and had senzu. If things had kept going without the big changes like Cell showing up and our heroes being able to survive and get stronger, it's possible that 17 and 18 would have still become the versions Trunks knew...just without being able to blow up nature, as 16 likes birds. A lot.
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Re: Morality of the Cyborgs

Post by Akyon » Thu May 14, 2015 6:12 am

TheDevilsCorpse wrote:I honestly don't think there was anything different about them between the future and the past in the beginning, the changing events just prevented the evolution that occurred the first time around. I also don't think it was any single instance, but just everything coming together to alter their character development trajectory.

Having 16 around may have helped to knock their progression into bored, cold blooded killers off course, but they still beat the heroes to near death and the only reason they live is because they were prepared and had senzu. If things had kept going without the big changes like Cell showing up and our heroes being able to survive and get stronger, it's possible that 17 and 18 would have still become the versions Trunks knew...just without being able to blow up nature, as 16 likes birds. A lot.
In all fairness though, Vegeta was the one to challenge 18, and 17 set a condition that he wouldn't get involved unless the others interfered with their battle. When Trunks dived in and Piccolo and Tien followed, 17 beat them soundly, but neither of the siblings attacked Krillin, who hadn't broken their game's rules.

Hell, they even suggest he gives them senzus.

If 17 and 18 were blood thirsty killers like in the other timeline they wouldn't of allowed them to live in the first place. They'd of just outright killed all of them there and then. Krillin wouldn't even get a chance to use a senzu, even if they decided to spare him for obeying the rules of their little duel.

I don't know but I find it difficult to believe their personalities are exactly the same in both timelines at the beginning due to this.
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Re: Morality of the Cyborgs

Post by FoolsGil » Thu May 14, 2015 9:06 am

Time Travel rarely makes sense, but I suppose in the Mirai Timeline, Gero completed the Androids without interference, or feeling a need to transfer their bodies. Even if they are the same snarky teenagers, and killed Gero, his tech still controlled them so they followed their orders. Z Timeline, he placed them on a backburner due to time interference and made a body of his own and Android 19. Lapis and Lazuli were still incomplete, the only order being kill Goku.

tldr, morality because Gero didn't finish.

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Re: Morality of the Cyborgs

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Thu May 14, 2015 9:07 am

I think Goku being alive in the present timeline is why they're not as evil as their future counterparts. Even though they hated Gero, they still had their mission. Without Goku in the future, there was pretty much nothing else to do besides destroy the world. It's stated in the anime that the Future Androids were programmed for world domination, while Trunks seems to believe that's their goal in the manga.
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Re: Morality of the Cyborgs

Post by TJVY » Thu May 14, 2015 10:48 am

FoolsGil wrote:Time Travel rarely makes sense, but I suppose in the Mirai Timeline, Gero completed the Androids without interference, or feeling a need to transfer their bodies. Even if they are the same snarky teenagers, and killed Gero, his tech still controlled them so they followed their orders. Z Timeline, he placed them on a backburner due to time interference and made a body of his own and Android 19. Lapis and Lazuli were still incomplete, the only order being kill Goku.

tldr, morality because Gero didn't finish.
Great answer, I think this is a perfect explanation tbh.
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Re: Morality of the Cyborgs

Post by Rocketman » Thu May 14, 2015 12:48 pm

I think it comes down to the Z Squad being prepared/forewarned for the fight. Picture the fight as it happened.

Now imagine Trunks isn't there, they don't have Senzu, Krillin isn't afraid of his foretold death and thus jumps in too... that's already the "everybody dead" part. Then with Goku long dead of the heart virus, the Androids get bored and wander around doing GTA-style antics to amuse themselves. Which escalates as the years pass until they're the Future Androids we all know.

Vegeta might not even have been a Super Saiyan in that timeline without seeing Trunks transform and pushing himself hard for the Android fight, which makes it even more likely for everybody to fight together instead of hoping that he can do it alone, as they did in our timeline.

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Re: Morality of the Cyborgs

Post by Dayspring » Fri May 15, 2015 12:44 pm

Rocketman wrote:I think it comes down to the Z Squad being prepared/forewarned for the fight. Picture the fight as it happened.

Now imagine Trunks isn't there, they don't have Senzu, Krillin isn't afraid of his foretold death and thus jumps in too... that's already the "everybody dead" part. Then with Goku long dead of the heart virus, the Androids get bored and wander around doing GTA-style antics to amuse themselves. Which escalates as the years pass until they're the Future Androids we all know.

Vegeta might not even have been a Super Saiyan in that timeline without seeing Trunks transform and pushing himself hard for the Android fight, which makes it even more likely for everybody to fight together instead of hoping that he can do it alone, as they did in our timeline.
I think they're also on the precipice of becoming evil at that point. We know from Cell's timeline that if Trunks visits the past but not Cell, then Goku dies anyway and Vegeta specifically gets killed by #17. Maybe Cell's presence is what gives Goku the idea to try ROSAT, so without it, the fight against Piccolo would be what results in the deaths even if people did survive what Rocketman suggested.
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Re: Morality of the Cyborgs

Post by One_Instance » Fri May 15, 2015 4:16 pm

I'd say that the fact that they were surpassed in strength led to a change in morality, simply because they couldn't act on their evil desires.

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Re: Morality of the Cyborgs

Post by buutenks » Sat May 16, 2015 12:19 pm

Well it was never explained why.I mean for starters the androids in trunk's time line are weaker than the ones in the time line where goku is still alive,add in 16 being around,things changed.But why i dont know.

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Re: Morality of the Cyborgs

Post by Dayspring » Sat May 16, 2015 9:45 pm

buutenks wrote:Well it was never explained why.I mean for starters the androids in trunk's time line are weaker than the ones in the time line where goku is still alive,add in 16 being around,things changed.But why i dont know.
Actually, it's implied that they were toying with Trunks and never actually that weak. Meanwhile, 16 not being there is cause and effect. Trunks doesn't realize it, but his timeline was created by Cell. Cell traveling to the past but not Trunks would create a world in which 17 and 18 are at risk of being assimilated and Piccolo is either dead or not as powerful as #17 when he confronts Cell. It's plausible to assume that 16 self-destructed in order to kill Cell, thus explaining why he and Cell don't exist in Trunks' era.
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Re: Morality of the Cyborgs

Post by Demon of Light » Sun May 17, 2015 5:20 am

Dayspring wrote:
buutenks wrote:Well it was never explained why.I mean for starters the androids in trunk's time line are weaker than the ones in the time line where goku is still alive,add in 16 being around,things changed.But why i dont know.
Actually, it's implied that they were toying with Trunks and never actually that weak. Meanwhile, 16 not being there is cause and effect. Trunks doesn't realize it, but his timeline was created by Cell. Cell traveling to the past but not Trunks would create a world in which 17 and 18 are at risk of being assimilated and Piccolo is either dead or not as powerful as #17 when he confronts Cell. It's plausible to assume that 16 self-destructed in order to kill Cell, thus explaining why he and Cell don't exist in Trunks' era.
Cell does still exist in Trunks' time, though, he shows up after Future Trunks kills his timeline's 17 and 18 and is completely obliterated. 16 is absent in that timeline, but Cell has nothing to do with it.

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