Tenshinhan's strength at the end of the series

[supercat]

It certainly is a possibility that Shisami was initially around Piccolo / Cell Jr. level, and that he was far above Tagoma. However, I just feel if he was wielding that kind of power, some recognition of that power would have been given to him by Sorbet during their introduction to Freeza. In addition, if Shisami was that powerful, why would Sorbet decide to take Tagoma instead to collect the Dragon Balls? My only guess would be Tagoma was more intelligent, and their mission was supposed to be kept on the low, so they were intending on avoiding confrontation with the Z-Fighters. With that being said, couldn't someone who is around Piccolo / Cell Jr. tier at least have tagged along for the purpose of serving as a bodyguard?

You'll have to forgive me but have you seen the movie? When does Shisami show up exactly? Because in the revival of F manga he isn't in the story until after the 4 month training gap Freeza took. It is highly possible that Freeza found this subordinate during the 4 months worth of training and hired him. Which is why Sorbet didn't take him to Earth. Because he wasn't part of Freeza's army at that point.

And you'll have to forgive me.. Have you not known that Shisami was introduced alongside Tagoma in the movie? Your theory on Frieza recruiting Shisami during the 4 month gap would have alleviated so many doubts regarding this topic and in my opinion would have made a lot of sense. However, that was simply not the case.

[Hitiro]

And you'll have to forgive me.. Have you not known that Shisami was introduced alongside Tagoma in the movie? Your theory on Freeza recruiting Shisami during the 4 month gap would have alleviated so many doubts regarding this topic and in my opinion would have made a lot of sense. However, that was simply not the case.

The only part of the movie I've seen is when Whis was training Goku and Vegeta. Other than that I've seen nothing. In the revival of F manga only Tagoma was introduced so I thought that was how the movie played out, more or less.

[Kamiccolo9]

In addition, if Shisami was that powerful, why would Sorbet decide to take Tagoma instead to collect the Dragon Balls?

If Freeza was so powerful on Namek, why would he bother bringing Zarbon and Dodoria?

Better yet, if he really felt like bringing his best men along, why did he bring in Zarbon and Dodoria before calling in the Ginyu Force?

There's no need to bring a hammer when a scalpel will work just fine.

[Hitiro]

In addition, if Shisami was that powerful, why would Sorbet decide to take Tagoma instead to collect the Dragon Balls?

If Freeza was so powerful on Namek, why would he bother bringing Zarbon and Dodoria?

Better yet, if he really felt like bringing his best men along, why did he bring in Zarbon and Dodoria before calling in the Ginyu Force?

There's no need to bring a hammer when a scalpel will work just fine.

Also, I think that a character who is Piccolo to Cell tier in power coming to Earth would set off more alarms than someone weaker than first form Freeza.

[supercat]

In addition, if Shisami was that powerful, why would Sorbet decide to take Tagoma instead to collect the Dragon Balls?

If Freeza was so powerful on Namek, why would he bother bringing Zarbon and Dodoria?

Better yet, if he really felt like bringing his best men along, why did he bring in Zarbon and Dodoria before calling in the Ginyu Force?

There's no need to bring a hammer when a scalpel will work just fine.

Also, I think that a character who is Piccolo to Cell tier in power coming to Earth would set off more alarms than someone weaker than first form Freeza.

Both of those theories actually seem pretty plausible. I'd be totally happy to accept either the fact that Shisami started off with a power that can rival Piccolo / Cell Jr. or he trained to reach such levels. In fact, both of those scenarios would actually make a lot more sense to me than Piccolo fighting on par with someone Zarbon tier.

I guess the only disconnect I would have with Shisami starting off so strong is, why would he need to submit to Frieza or even Sorbet with a power that is most likely capable of accomplishing quite a bit? The only logical explanation I see here is, Shisami perceives Frieza and Sorbet as his leaders / mentors in a sense. He probably respects them for their leadership and ability to guide their organization in the right direction. Perhaps Shisami is content with being just the muscles of the group while leaving things like leadership, and building the right foundation for the organization to people with the right capabilities and mentality like Frieza and Sorbet. This could explain why Sorbet was put in charge, despite the fact that he was probably weaker than both Shisami and Tagoma. Though completely different in context, I guess it's subtly akin to Goku showing respect and looking up to King Kai as a being higher than himself, despite the latter being much weaker.

[Hitiro]

Both of those theories actually seem pretty plausible. I'd be totally happy to accept either the fact that Shisami started off with a power that can rival Piccolo / Cell Jr. or he trained to reach such levels. In fact, both of those scenarios would actually make a lot more sense to me than Piccolo fighting on par with someone Zarbon tier.

I guess the only disconnect I would have with Shisami starting off so strong is, why would he need to submit to Freeza or even Sorbet with a power that is most likely capable of accomplishing quite a bit? The only logical explanation I see here is, Shisami perceives Freeza and Sorbet as his leaders / mentors in a sense. He probably respects them for their leadership and ability to guide their organization in the right direction. Perhaps Shisami is content with being just the muscles of the group while leaving things like leadership, and building the right foundation for the organization to people with the right capabilities and mentality like Freeza and Sorbet. This could explain why Sorbet was put in charge, despite the fact that he was probably weaker than both Shisami and Tagoma. Though completely different in context, I guess it's subtly akin to Goku showing respect and looking up to King Kai as a being higher than himself, despite the latter being much weaker.

The same could be said for Ginyu really. He didn't have to submit to Freeza he could have just body swapped when Freeza was unaware. Perhaps Shisami realised that being the leader would mean nothing because he couldn't compete with the Saiyan's. And that is why he lets Sorbet do the job because he is actually the brains behind the army.

[supercat]

Both of those theories actually seem pretty plausible. I'd be totally happy to accept either the fact that Shisami started off with a power that can rival Piccolo / Cell Jr. or he trained to reach such levels. In fact, both of those scenarios would actually make a lot more sense to me than Piccolo fighting on par with someone Zarbon tier.

I guess the only disconnect I would have with Shisami starting off so strong is, why would he need to submit to Freeza or even Sorbet with a power that is most likely capable of accomplishing quite a bit? The only logical explanation I see here is, Shisami perceives Freeza and Sorbet as his leaders / mentors in a sense. He probably respects them for their leadership and ability to guide their organization in the right direction. Perhaps Shisami is content with being just the muscles of the group while leaving things like leadership, and building the right foundation for the organization to people with the right capabilities and mentality like Freeza and Sorbet. This could explain why Sorbet was put in charge, despite the fact that he was probably weaker than both Shisami and Tagoma. Though completely different in context, I guess it's subtly akin to Goku showing respect and looking up to King Kai as a being higher than himself, despite the latter being much weaker.

The same could be said for Ginyu really. He didn't have to submit to Freeza he could have just body swapped when Freeza was unaware. Perhaps Shisami realised that being the leader would mean nothing because he couldn't compete with the Saiyan's. And that is why he lets Sorbet do the job because he is actually the brains behind the army.

Isn't it pretty hard to catch someone off with the body swap attack? I thought the two people involved in the swap had to face each other? Can't recall any details on how the move has to be executed, but yes I could see it being something Ginyu could have possibly done (though debatable). I think it would make things a whole lot better if Shisami started off Piccolo / Cell Jr. tier. Hopefully there will be some explanation as to who he is, or how he's managed to fight at the same level as Piccolo.

It does seem pretty probable that Shisami would choose to be the muscles or the bodyguard of the organization as I'm sure he acknowledges the superior knowledge / leadership that Sorbet and Frieza possess. Again, this whole concept of submitting to a weaker being could almost loosely mirror Goku letting beings like King Kai and Kaioshin watch over the universe, despite the fact that he can easily muscle his way into the position of an overseer. Therefore, it's possible that Shisami is simply reserved as a major contributor in battles requiring pure power, while being left out from strategic missions like collecting the Dragon Balls.

[Hugo Boss]

I guess the only disconnect I would have with Shisami starting off so strong is, why would he need to submit to Freeza or even Sorbet with a power that is most likely capable of accomplishing quite a bit? The only logical explanation I see here is, Shisami perceives Freeza and Sorbet as his leaders / mentors in a sense. He probably respects them for their leadership and ability to guide their organization in the right direction. Perhaps Shisami is content with being just the muscles of the group while leaving things like leadership, and building the right foundation for the organization to people with the right capabilities and mentality like Freeza and Sorbet. This could explain why Sorbet was put in charge, despite the fact that he was probably weaker than both Shisami and Tagoma. Though completely different in context, I guess it's subtly akin to Goku showing respect and looking up to King Kai as a being higher than himself, despite the latter being much weaker.

I don't buy this theory, because Freeza's forces were forced to bring him back due to the lack of power. I believe Freeza was well aware of that the moment he realized he was alive again. It's pretty odd for a army that has a soldier stronger than Freeza to have trouble with an insurgence.

[supercat]

I guess the only disconnect I would have with Shisami starting off so strong is, why would he need to submit to Freeza or even Sorbet with a power that is most likely capable of accomplishing quite a bit? The only logical explanation I see here is, Shisami perceives Freeza and Sorbet as his leaders / mentors in a sense. He probably respects them for their leadership and ability to guide their organization in the right direction. Perhaps Shisami is content with being just the muscles of the group while leaving things like leadership, and building the right foundation for the organization to people with the right capabilities and mentality like Freeza and Sorbet. This could explain why Sorbet was put in charge, despite the fact that he was probably weaker than both Shisami and Tagoma. Though completely different in context, I guess it's subtly akin to Goku showing respect and looking up to King Kai as a being higher than himself, despite the latter being much weaker.

I don't buy this theory, because Freeza's forces were forced to bring him back due to the lack of power. I believe Freeza was well aware of that the moment he realized he was alive again. It's pretty odd for a army that has a soldier stronger than Freeza to have trouble with an insurgence.

This topic seems to be pretty debatable. If we go with the fact that Frieza was brought back because the organization didn't have enough power to continue doing what they were doing, then yes, Shisami probably did start off Zarbon tier. However, it now seems apparent that the characters were at their peak of their powers during the events of BoG. With that being the case, I can't imagine how Piccolo (who apparently still trains) would have dropped down to barely being able to fight on par with someone Zarbon level. If I had to think of something to counter all this, it would be that the organization itself didn't seem to be holding up with as much foundation as when Frieza was around. Even if Shisami had the power to force several planets into submission, the organization may have a hard time maintaining their gains, simply because their current forces may lack the guidance to subdue a potential resistance. Shisami can't be at multiple planets at once. He may be leveraged initially to conquer, but the rest has to be stabilized by the other grunts. I can't recall with certainty, but wasn't there something that mentioned how the organization isn't what it used to be?

Even if the theory of Shisami starting off with a Piccolo / Cell Jr. level power does not apply, we can still go back to the whole Shisami training to reach Piccolo tier.

[Kamiccolo9]

So, uh, Tenshinhan?

[rereboy]

In addition, if Shisami was that powerful, why would Sorbet decide to take Tagoma instead to collect the Dragon Balls?

If Freeza was so powerful on Namek, why would he bother bringing Zarbon and Dodoria?

Better yet, if he really felt like bringing his best men along, why did he bring in Zarbon and Dodoria before calling in the Ginyu Force?

There's no need to bring a hammer when a scalpel will work just fine.

Because, as its evident from his demeanor, Freeza greatly enjoys ordering people around so he will generally have people do stuff for him, instead of himself. That's why he has a force with him, despite him being the strongest. But he also doesn't need to have his greatest fighters with him at all times. Zarbon and Dodoria are more than enough for any predictable resistance. The Ginyu force are for special cases.

However, Sorbet knew that he was infiltrating into enemy territory, where fighters much stronger than him or any of his allies lived. It would make sense to have his most powerful fighters with him.

[supercat]

In addition, if Shisami was that powerful, why would Sorbet decide to take Tagoma instead to collect the Dragon Balls?

If Freeza was so powerful on Namek, why would he bother bringing Zarbon and Dodoria?

Better yet, if he really felt like bringing his best men along, why did he bring in Zarbon and Dodoria before calling in the Ginyu Force?

There's no need to bring a hammer when a scalpel will work just fine.

Because, as its evident from his demeanor, Freeza greatly enjoys ordering people around so he will generally have people do stuff for him, instead of himself. That's why he has a force with him, despite him being the strongest. But he also doesn't need to have his greatest fighters with him at all times. Zarbon and Dodoria are more than enough for any predictable resistance. The Ginyu force are for special cases.

All of these theories regarding Tagoma / Shisami and Zarbon / Dodoria seem pretty debatable (some theories with their own variation of fallacies) The whole thing with Sorbet choosing to take Tagoma along for the Dragon Ball search may or may not indicate whether Tagoma was more powerful than Shisami or not. If we go with the fact that Shisami is simply leveraged as brute force for the organization, then it may make sense that Sorbet opted into taking Tagoma as their intention was to fall under the radar and be as strategic as possible with the mission. Since they were never planning on confronting the Z-Fighters, it may be that the sheer power of Shisami was not necessary. We don't know much about Tagoma at this point, but it could be that he has the edge in some other characteristics that may have deemed him more useful for the particular objective at the time (finding the Dragon Balls and wishing back Frieza). Frieza taking Zarbon and Dodoria to Namek versus the Ginyu Force also seems to be an applicable analogy as to why Sorbet chose Tagoma.

On the contrary, Sorbet's decision to employ Tagoma for the Dragon Ball search, could also mean that Tagoma was the more superior warrior from all angles (including power).

Again, very debatable topic consisting of theories that each have their own strengths and weaknesses. The lack of specific references makes this whole concept hard to pin down at this point.

[rereboy]

All of these theories regarding Tagoma / Shisami and Zarbon / Dodoria seem pretty debatable (some theories with their own variation of fallacies)

That's because there isn't a satisfying explanation in-universe for Shisame and his power in the movie. It's obvious that he's there for the movie to have a more significant moment for Freeza's goons and Gohan, but because they didn't bother with adding internal in-universal logic and explanation for his existence and power, pretty much every theory that we have will have problems and will conflict with something in the movie, unless we come up with a rather complex theory but then it would have the flaw of having too many assumptions.

[supercat]

All of these theories regarding Tagoma / Shisami and Zarbon / Dodoria seem pretty debatable (some theories with their own variation of fallacies)

That's because there isn't a satisfying explanation in-universe for Shisame and his power in the movie. It's obvious that he's there for the movie to have a more significant moment for Freeza's goons and Gohan, but because they didn't bother with adding internal in-universal logic and explanation for his existence and power, pretty much every theory that we have will have problems and will conflict with something in the movie, unless we come up with a rather complex theory but then it would have the flaw of having too many assumptions.

I mean, at least mentioning the fact that Shisami was involved in some level of training would be very helpful. I just can't see myself subscribing to the whole Piccolo / Base Gohan now being on par with Zarbon theory.

At this point, it seems the two most logical theories are that Shisami started off immensely powerful (Piccolo / Cell Jr. tier), or he trained to reach levels that can rival Piccolo / Cell Jr.

In short, if we go with him starting off with a power that can rival Piccolo / Cell Jr., then we can go with the fact that he is most likely only used as brute force and may lack both the ability and desire to lead. His lack of leadership and the lack of ability to build a solid foundation for the grunts is what may be what lead their entire organization to suffer resistance. As I briefly mentioned in one of my earlier posts, he can't be everywhere at once to keep everyone in check with his brute strength. Some of those responsibilities have to eventually fall onto the grunts. I recall something about the organization not being what it used to be (although I can't recall the specific reference). It could also be that Shisami trained while Frieza was dead, and over the years he was able to obtain some amazing power increases. To cover for the whole why would someone so strong submit to Frieza question, I'll preemptively put it out there that both Shisami and Tagoma were likely stronger than Sorbet, yet they were under him in rank.

Getting confirmation on Shisami actually training (whether or not the concept is explored in-depth) would immediately support the validity of him being able to rival Piccolo, as we now know at this point, power increases happening at massive increases is no surprise. This is probably the more simple theory of the two, with less over analyzing involved.

[Kaboom]

This has nothing to do with Tenshinhan.

If you want to discuss the powers at work in Resurrection F, we have a dedicated thread for that. This is not the place for it.

[RandomGuy96]

Weaker than Krillin, who barely trained since the Android arc, where he was weaker than Android arc base Vegta. Other than that, who knows.

[Hugo Boss]

This has nothing to do with Tenshinhan.

I believe this is how it started:

Spoiler:

It honestly pisses me off that Toriyama keeps saying such ridiculous things, but it honestly isn't surprising. He's said a lot of foolish things lately. Just look at how Piccolo gets treated in the most recent movie.

How was Piccolo treated in the movie, btw?

He was beaten up by someone stated to be on Zarbon's level.

Though it's a discussion more apropriated in the movie thread, it holds some connection with Tenshinhan too. Given that Ressurrection F is commonly said to be the current end of the series, Tenshinhan and Kuririn could be weaker than Dodoria.

[Godo]

I take it as Toriyama says, that Kuririn is the strongest human.
Choosing to not buy it is OK, but if the series creator says so, for me, that's the truth.

Toriyama can choose to for no reason at all make a character stronger.
Hell, if he decides that Chao-zu is superior to Buu, then he is.

[Hugo Boss]

According to Herms,

Volume F does has a quote from Toriyama saying Kame-sennin could have been as strong as he is in the film if he had put his mind to it. The internet turned that into "Kame-sennin is the strongest Earthling" because it's the internet.

So I guess there is plenty room to decide wheter one of the Earthling fighters could be the strongest among that group.

Volume F also has a note of Mr. Toriyama regarding the creative rights of the author, including changing things already established as facts if I'm not wrong.

Spoiler:

It’s really embarrassing to have this called a “screenplay”. It’d probably be more accurate to say it’s just a memo. It’s simply something I idly dashed off for the staff, just to help explain the flow of the story and the dialogue! Never in a million years did I think it would get published. If any of you are trying to become scriptwriters, please don’t use this as an example!!

I guess you could say that some things are difficult for anyone but the original author to write, because only the original author can freely mess around with what’s already been established. A scriptwriter would get tied up trying not to screw with the original story, so in that respect they’d probably have a harder time messing around with things.

Then there’s the dialogue. The original author knows each character’s personality and backstory, so they can naturally think up dialogue that suits them.