Why couldn't Ginyu control Goku's ki?

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Why couldn't Ginyu control Goku's ki?

Post by fadeddreams5 » Wed May 27, 2015 10:20 pm

I never got this. It's implied that the body we see Ginyu possess isn't even his original body, which means he's been able to stay in full control in the past. What made Goku different? Does his pure-heartedness have something to do with it?
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Re: Why couldn't Ginyu control Goku's ki?

Post by Lord Beerus » Wed May 27, 2015 11:08 pm

He quite simply didn't know how to properly handle Goku's power because he most likely did not know the specific method for which Goku uses to tap into his full power and didn't know how to perform the Kaioken technique. That, and the plot required for Ginyu to fail.

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Re: Why couldn't Ginyu control Goku's ki?

Post by Dayspring » Wed May 27, 2015 11:39 pm

It's implied that the bodies were too different for him to have mastered tapping into all of Goku's power right off the bat. In other words, it's because he just wasn't used to Goku's body yet.
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Re: Why couldn't Ginyu control Goku's ki?

Post by Akira » Thu May 28, 2015 12:08 am

Goku, at that point in the series, had learned of scouters after fighting the saiyans on earth. He trained himself in such a way that he suppressed his battle power down to 5000 to throw scouter users off of what he was really capable of. The entire time he was fighting the other Ginyu force members, their scouters only registered 5000 every time they scanned him. He spent his entire youth wearing weighted shells and clothing to enhance his power once removed to throw opponents off from his true capabilities. Then he learned the Kaioken technique, which multiplied his power beyond its normal limits in extended bursts to overwhelm his opponents. He mentioned near the end of his trip to Namek that he was capable of a Kaioken x10 now. So his body, after surviving, then training in 100x earth's gravity, and becoming accustomed to using the Kaioken technique, was used to launching his power upwards in incredibly short bursts, near instantaneously.

Commander Ginyu, by comparison, could probably have a resting power a bit above the rest of his team, and a power-up top threshold of 120,000. He was used to only a mildly lengthy power-up sequence to raise his battle power, in a typically traditional sense.

Goku comfortably maintained a power suppression of 5000, and had a top base power of 90,000. Because of gravity and Kaioken training, he could boost up to his max of 90,000 in an instant, and then immediately suppress back down to 5000 effortlessly. That is what his body was used to by that point. Once Kaioken came into the equation, even at its base x2 boost, which he performed the extended version of (I believe) to intimidate Ginyu and rose to 180,000 with that alone. Since he was capable of a x10, the basic x2 was easy to maintain for an extended "show of power" for this purpose. He even says to Ginyu that he can go even higher than that in short bursts if he needs to. (Referencing his true, Kaioken x10 assisted, max power of 900,000)

To wrap this up and answer the question, Ginyu saw the Kaioken x2 180,000 reading on the scouter and was all too excited to body swap without considering that he may not understand exactly how Goku tapped into that much power. Goku seemed to be at his max base in a relaxed state, possibly because his body was already used to using Kaioken to boost well above it. Once they switched bodies, Goku said Gohan and Krillin could take Ginyu on because he hadn't figured the body out yet. They were probably never in any real danger of facing power over 100,000 out of him because Ginyu did not know Kaioken, and was trying to reach max power in Goku's body in the same way he powered up in his old body, which just wasn't being used in that same fashion prior to his acquisition of it. There was potentially a danger of him finding out how to access the 90,000 max though with enough practice.

What irony eh? Although he wasn't in Goku's body long enough to find out, even if he had achieved max power with it, it would have been a downgrade for him, due to not knowing the technique used to reach the power he witnessed previously.
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Re: Why couldn't Ginyu control Goku's ki?

Post by The Monkey King » Thu May 28, 2015 12:09 am

Chapter: 288 (DBZ 94), P12.1-3
Context: Goku encouraging Gohan and Kuririn to fight Ginyu
Goku: “Th-that’s Ginyu! Don’t hesitate, take him out…! The way you are now, you definitely can’t lose! Alright…?! Blow him away…!”
Ginyu: “Blow me away?...Fuhahaha…! You idiot! You say they can’t lose!? This is your former body! It’s battle power is over 180,000! There’s no way they can win!”
Goku: “You’ll understand once you give it a try. That’s my body…Can you perform a Kaio-Ken, or even properly use its ki…?! You can’t put forth a large power unless your mind and body are one…!

According to Goku Ginyu's mind and Goku's body weren't properly one in order for him to use his ki properly.
Perhaps for Goku his shouki is a bigger component of his ki make up than most.
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Re: Why couldn't Ginyu control Goku's ki?

Post by supercat » Thu May 28, 2015 12:43 am

Aside from the fact that Ginyu was probably not used to Saiyan Physiology, Kaio-ken was a technique that seemed exclusive to Goku. It was also probably a technique that required knowing how to tap into the power yielded by the move itself. To give an analogy, if I swapped bodies with my cat, she probably wouldn't suddenly be able to do the things I do, like drive my car, text on my phone, etc. Even if she physically inhabited my body, other factors like leveraging certain skills, techniques, and to an extent, even muscle memory would not be passed along through the body swap. Same concept would be applicable if I inhabited her body.. I probably wouldn't be able to jump onto high places with the same amount of finesse she displays when performing the same act.

Just because Ginyu physically inhabits Goku's body, doesn't mean he is suddenly capable of accessing all of his moves and power.

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Re: Why couldn't Ginyu control Goku's ki?

Post by singsing » Thu May 28, 2015 1:02 am

Besides what was previously mentioned, there's also the fact that Ginyu only JUST got Goku's body. If he were given more time, his power would have continued to rise as he got more accustomed to the body and learned the nuances of Goku power-ups. IIRC that was mentioned in the manga already, Ginyu was slowly getting stronger as he fought in Goku's body.

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Re: Why couldn't Ginyu control Goku's ki?

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Thu May 28, 2015 3:21 am

^I believe that was said in the anime, possibly the dub.

In the manga, he just looked terrible all throughout.
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Re: Why couldn't Ginyu control Goku's ki?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Thu May 28, 2015 5:43 am

Akira wrote:Goku, at that point in the series, had learned of scouters after fighting the saiyans on earth. He trained himself in such a way that he suppressed his battle power down to 5000 to throw scouter users off of what he was really capable of. The entire time he was fighting the other Ginyu force members, their scouters only registered 5000 every time they scanned him. He spent his entire youth wearing weighted shells and clothing to enhance his power once removed to throw opponents off from his true capabilities. Then he learned the Kaioken technique, which multiplied his power beyond its normal limits in extended bursts to overwhelm his opponents. He mentioned near the end of his trip to Namek that he was capable of a Kaioken x10 now. So his body, after surviving, then training in 100x earth's gravity, and becoming accustomed to using the Kaioken technique, was used to launching his power upwards in incredibly short bursts, near instantaneously.

Commander Ginyu, by comparison, could probably have a resting power a bit above the rest of his team, and a power-up top threshold of 120,000. He was used to only a mildly lengthy power-up sequence to raise his battle power, in a typically traditional sense.

Goku comfortably maintained a power suppression of 5000, and had a top base power of 90,000. Because of gravity and Kaioken training, he could boost up to his max of 90,000 in an instant, and then immediately suppress back down to 5000 effortlessly. That is what his body was used to by that point. Once Kaioken came into the equation, even at its base x2 boost, which he performed the extended version of (I believe) to intimidate Ginyu and rose to 180,000 with that alone. Since he was capable of a x10, the basic x2 was easy to maintain for an extended "show of power" for this purpose. He even says to Ginyu that he can go even higher than that in short bursts if he needs to. (Referencing his true, Kaioken x10 assisted, max power of 900,000)

To wrap this up and answer the question, Ginyu saw the Kaioken x2 180,000 reading on the scouter and was all too excited to body swap without considering that he may not understand exactly how Goku tapped into that much power. Goku seemed to be at his max base in a relaxed state, possibly because his body was already used to using Kaioken to boost well above it. Once they switched bodies, Goku said Gohan and Krillin could take Ginyu on because he hadn't figured the body out yet. They were probably never in any real danger of facing power over 100,000 out of him because Ginyu did not know Kaioken, and was trying to reach max power in Goku's body in the same way he powered up in his old body, which just wasn't being used in that same fashion prior to his acquisition of it. There was potentially a danger of him finding out how to access the 90,000 max though with enough practice.

What irony eh? Although he wasn't in Goku's body long enough to find out, even if he had achieved max power with it, it would have been a downgrade for him, due to not knowing the technique used to reach the power he witnessed previously.
This sounds like the best and most detailed explanation.
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Re: Why couldn't Ginyu control Goku's ki?

Post by dbgtFO » Thu May 28, 2015 7:18 am

The Monkey King wrote:Chapter: 288 (DBZ 94), P12.1-3
Context: Goku encouraging Gohan and Kuririn to fight Ginyu
Goku: “Th-that’s Ginyu! Don’t hesitate, take him out…! The way you are now, you definitely can’t lose! Alright…?! Blow him away…!”
Ginyu: “Blow me away?...Fuhahaha…! You idiot! You say they can’t lose!? This is your former body! It’s battle power is over 180,000! There’s no way they can win!”
Goku: “You’ll understand once you give it a try. That’s my body…Can you perform a Kaio-Ken, or even properly use its ki…?! You can’t put forth a large power unless your mind and body are one…!

According to Goku Ginyu's mind and Goku's body weren't properly one in order for him to use his ki properly.
Perhaps for Goku his shouki is a bigger component of his ki make up than most.
Yes, exactly this.

Think of Freeza's men and Vegeta previously as brutes who unconciously limit themselves to what their bodies are naturally capable of, whereas Goku and co. due to their training with Kami and Mr. Popo have surpassed their physical limits by training the mind too. In terms of ki control/understanding of ki, Freeza's men would for the most part be at a lower level than Goku and co.
The way Ginyu would draw out his power would thus be inadequate to reach Goku's full power, as there's an aspect of his power, that's tied to the mind as well.

Ginyu(physical ki): 120,000.

Goku(physical ki): 23,000.
-Amplified by mind: 90,000.

Ginyu having a rudimentary understanding of ki, thus failed to draw out Goku's true power(and of course didn't know how to do Kaio-ken either).

Getting a bit off-topic, I always used to include this in my theory in the limitations of Kaio-ken:

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Re: Why couldn't Ginyu control Goku's ki?

Post by Akira » Thu May 28, 2015 9:23 am

In response to my first post:
Polyphase Avatron wrote: This sounds like the best and most detailed explanation.
Thank you, but mine is in total agreement with everything said by the other members responding too. I like to look at the responses here in this thread as a group effort and comprehensive answer to the initial question. The Monkey King quoted the Strength Checker, which has exact manga quotes related to the question, Supercat provided a solid real world analogy to help understand the concept better, and Dayspring and Lord Beerus basically explained the answer in an accurate nutshell.

I tried to expand a bit into explaining the differences between Goku and Ginyu leading up to the body swap to add some context to the situation, and then dbgtFO brought up an additional factor that I failed to mention regarding the mind and ki strengthening training under Kami and Mr. Popo, which is also an important factor. Then, he mentioned a very interesting theory of his own, which opened the topic up to further discussion since the initial question had now been answered in full. So, yeah, way to go team effort everyone. :clap:

Regarding said theory, that makes sense, dbgtFO. I'd never thought about that, but I like it, very well thought out response.
"Of" =/= "Have"

Contractions:
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-Would have = Would've

The heck does "should of" even mean anyway? Think about what those two words mean individually, and then try to read them back to back in a sentence and make sense of it. Are you forming a prepositional phrase, is "should" a part of a larger grouping, or are you just typing random words based on how you think you hear them used verbally? Perhaps take a moment to contemplate this, and see if it becomes as mind jarring for you to look at as it does for me..

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Re: Why couldn't Ginyu control Goku's ki?

Post by dbgtFO » Thu May 28, 2015 10:19 am

Akira wrote:Regarding said theory, that makes sense, dbgtFO. I'd never thought about that, but I like it, very well thought out response.
Thank you!
Although my logic tends to fail me, when trying to explain to myself why Goku's Kaio-ken capabilities weren't increased accordingly after he got out of the healing tank,
given that I'm sure it's supposed to be a physical power-up :?

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Re: Why couldn't Ginyu control Goku's ki?

Post by Pantalones » Thu May 28, 2015 1:11 pm

I always figured it was because Goku had more in-depth ki-related training and was able to tap into his ki in a different/better way to boost his power further, while Freeza's forces all pretty much relied on being naturally-strong mutants and did minimal training (and what training they did do was all "brute force" type training, nothing about gaining a deeper understanding of ki and how it works -- none of them knew how to sense ki, suppress their own ki, use amplified ki attacks, and so on. Having even one of those abilities -- like how Freeza could adjust his power within his final form, or how Vegeta's Gallick Gun apparently was an amplified attack considering that it was able to push back against Goku's Kamehameha until he bumped the Kaio-ken level up one more -- was unusual for them, while all of Earth's fighters could do all three.)

Now, Ginyu did seem to be on a higher level as far as ki understanding goes compared to the rest of Freeza's army -- hopping between different bodies and having to adjust to the different ki involved probably had something to do with this -- but he was still far, far below the level of ki control that Goku had at this point. He couldn't use the Kaio-ken because he'd never actually learned the technique -- just having Goku's body didn't magically make him capable of it, because it wasn't something Goku naturally had, it was something he had to learn and improve upon through tons of practice. Same goes for being able to use Goku's full 90,000 base power -- Ginyu hadn't gone through the training that Goku did to achieve that power in the first place, so he was only able to draw upon Goku's innate physical strength (since he had control over his body) and what little amount of additional ki that could be tapped into without using ki-control methods beyond Ginyu's level. Apparently, that adds up to around 23,000.

Interestingly, that puts Ginyu-Goku's power just below what Vegeta had when he arrived on Namek. So basically, if Goku hadn't gone through Roshi's training, Karin's training, Kami's training, and North Kaio's training to draw out his dormant power and get a greater understanding of ki -- in other words, if he was stuck using only the basic sorts of ki techniques that the Saiyans and Freeza's army knew about -- he would've never been able to surpass Vegeta.

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Re: Why couldn't Ginyu control Goku's ki?

Post by TheUltimateVegito » Mon Jun 01, 2015 10:51 am

The Monkey King wrote:Chapter: 288 (DBZ 94), P12.1-3
Goku: “You’ll understand once you give it a try. That’s my body…Can you perform a Kaio-Ken, or even properly use its ki…?! You can’t put forth a large power unless your mind and body are one…!

According to Goku Ginyu's mind and Goku's body weren't properly one in order for him to use his ki properly.
Perhaps for Goku his shouki is a bigger component of his ki make up than most.
Doesn't the manga guide have Goku say spirit instead of mind?
Also, does this imply that Ginyu would learn Kaioken as soon as he gets used to Goku's body, or that he would have to learn how to utilize both his base powers and Kaioken powers separately like Goku himself did?
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Re: Why couldn't Ginyu control Goku's ki?

Post by FoolsGil » Mon Jun 01, 2015 1:44 pm

Well the Z Fighters knew how to raise and lower pl, and then sense energy, while the PTO's powers are at max from day one, without able to sense energy. Goku's innate skills were too foreign for Ginyu to deal with.

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