Abo and Cado's Power

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Abo and Cado's Power

Post by supercat » Sat Jun 06, 2015 11:22 am

While it seems a bit unconventional to talk about a particular fighter's suppressed state when using them as a comparison, if Abo and Cado were being compared to Final Form Frieza at 100% power, Beerus' statement about BoG Base Goku not being able to defeat Frieza would be contradicted, as Base Goten and Trunks (who are likely far below BoG Base Goku) were able to match Abo and Cado. On the contrary, it does seem a bit unlikely that the kids in their base forms would have only barely surpassed First Form Frieza at this point.

My theories are as follows:

-Aka was the one being compared to Final Form Frieza at 100%. Without knowing for certain how Abo and Cado's fusion works, my assumption is that it probably gives their combined power a 3-4x boost. This leaves room to place Abo and Cado at around 15-20% of Final Form Frieza at 100%, which places the young Saiyans in their base forms more or less around that level as well. That level of power for the kids seems fairly reasonable in comparison to BoG Base Goku who we can assume was anywhere between 50-90% of Frieza's max power. The fusion multiplier is purely speculation at this point, and it should be adjusted according to how powerful one assumes Abo and Cado are individually. If they are only 18,000,000 each, the multiplier would have to be least 4x for Aka to be stronger than Frieza.

-It also could be that First Form Frieza was being used as a comparison to Abo and Cado individually. Tarble never stated just how much more powerful Abo and Cado were compared to Frieza. Therefore, even if we speculate that it was First Form Frieza that was being used as a reference, doesn't mean we have to assume that Abo and Cado were wielding battle powers only at around or a little higher than 530,000. Abo and Cado could have very well each had battle powers ranging from 18,000,000 - 25,000,000, which in turn qualifies them as being more powerful than First Form Frieza.

Just my speculations on the matter, interested in hearing what you all have to say.

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Re: Abo and Cado's Power

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sat Jun 06, 2015 1:15 pm

Honestly, aside from the brief reference to Tarble in BoG, the new movie seem to have completely disregarded the 2008 OVA special. For example, if Abo and Cado were stronger than Freeza, Sorbet wouldn't need to revive him to gain control of their empire again. They could just get Abo and Cado to put down those rebellions.
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Re: Abo and Cado's Power

Post by supercat » Sat Jun 06, 2015 1:45 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:Honestly, aside from the brief reference to Tarble in BoG, the new movie seem to have completely disregarded the 2008 OVA special. For example, if Abo and Cado were stronger than Freeza, Sorbet wouldn't need to revive him to gain control of their empire again. They could just get Abo and Cado to put down those rebellions.
Well perhaps Abo and Cado were no longer actively involved with the organization, and therefore, fell off the radar of Sorbet? I guess it depends on whether or not they were even in FnF. If they were seen fighting alongside the other grunts, then yes, it's probable that they were still far below Frieza. However, if they were completely absent from the big battle, then it could be assumed that they left the organization, and possibly branched off on their own.

Regardless, I feel trying to assess Abo and Cado's power as individuals is more important when trying to determine where Trunks and Goten stand. With that said, I'm open to Final Form Frieza (100%) > Aka as well. Personally, I don't think it changes much, and could really go either way. Aka > Final Form Frieza (100%) is not a necessity.

My previous multipliers for their fusion was just going off of the assumption that Aka was stronger than Final Form Frieza (100%). However, even if we assume that Aka is below Frieza's maximum realm of power, there's still room to place Abo and Cado at 15-20% or even 25% of Frieza's full power, granted that we lower the fusion multiplier. I'm fine with looking at it either way.

Goku turning SSJ at the end could also sort of hint that at that even if Aka were weaker than Frieza at his max, it may only be by a negligible amount.

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Re: Abo and Cado's Power

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Jun 06, 2015 3:49 pm

In the light of new events I think it's highly unlikely that Abo or Cado alone would be comparable to Freeza at his final form or even his first form. I'm more afined with putting them on the Ginyus level and Merged Aka at Freeza's level, whatever form Tarble meant.

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Re: Abo and Cado's Power

Post by supercat » Sat Jun 06, 2015 4:12 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:In the light of new events I think it's highly unlikely that Abo or Cado alone would be comparable to Freeza at his final form or even his first form. I'm more afined with putting them on the Ginyus level and Merged Aka at Freeza's level, whatever form Tarble meant.
So Goten and Trunks = Ginyu?

While we never had anything specific regarding how much the kids have progressed, it seems pretty unlikely that they would be below First Form Frieza, even in their base forms. I could never picture beings that are merely Ginyu tier being able to land hits on post Buu Arc Base Goten and Trunks.

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Re: Abo and Cado's Power

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Sat Jun 06, 2015 4:23 pm

I see the base kids pre rosat as Android 18 tier, so Abo and Cado being 100% Freeza tier and giving the rusty kids trouble is believable to me.

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Re: Abo and Cado's Power

Post by fadeddreams5 » Sat Jun 06, 2015 6:20 pm

The 2008 OVA followed GT logic, where the saiyans' base form increases exponentially after training and acquiring new forms. In Goten and Trunks' case, after their RoSAT training. So, in base, they should be 100% Frieza level.

BoG and Faff have fucked everything up. Now, the saiyan's base form is much weaker and possibly reaches a cap after some time. SSJ transformations are no longer general multipliers, though I'm not sure if it was the new movies that made this the case. And there's the "off-guard" nonsense, where even a SSGSS, which is stronger than all of Buu's forms, SSJ3, and fusions, can be one-shotted with a sneak attack. Basically, everyone's been nerfed, and we have power inconsistencies in every corner (*glares at Shisami*)
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Re: Abo and Cado's Power

Post by Dayspring » Sat Jun 06, 2015 6:49 pm

I don't see Abo and Kado as contradicting anything. Beerus' comments are uninformed opinions AND based on outdated information. Meanwhile, Sorbet reviving Freeza can be explained by the following: Abo and Kado might have been a different faction of Freeza's remnants (so why obey Sorbet?), Abo and Kado are shown agreeing not to do anything evil anymore.
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Re: Abo and Cado's Power

Post by Kaboom » Sat Jun 06, 2015 7:10 pm

If new Dragon Ball material's logic allows for Goku to be injured by a beam gun simply by being off-guard, then it likewise allows Goten and Trunks to have trouble with opponents on 1st-form Freeza's level just because their fighting and ki-sensing skills are rusty.

I, personally, am fine with both. It keeps things interesting.
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Re: Abo and Cado's Power

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Jun 06, 2015 7:24 pm

supercat wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:In the light of new events I think it's highly unlikely that Abo or Cado alone would be comparable to Freeza at his final form or even his first form. I'm more afined with putting them on the Ginyus level and Merged Aka at Freeza's level, whatever form Tarble meant.
So Goten and Trunks = Ginyu?

While we never had anything specific regarding how much the kids have progressed, it seems pretty unlikely that they would be below First Form Freeza, even in their base forms. I could never picture beings that are merely Ginyu tier being able to land hits on post Buu Arc Base Goten and Trunks.
The recent material may suggest that Base Saiyans at that point, even Goku and Gohan, are not quite able to defeat Freeza. So if both are really comparable to Freeza, for Goten and Trunks to have that kind of upper hand... Even Goku has to transform to take on Merged Aka, which seems plausible with what Tarble predicted.

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Re: Abo and Cado's Power

Post by supercat » Sat Jun 06, 2015 9:51 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
supercat wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:In the light of new events I think it's highly unlikely that Abo or Cado alone would be comparable to Freeza at his final form or even his first form. I'm more afined with putting them on the Ginyus level and Merged Aka at Freeza's level, whatever form Tarble meant.
So Goten and Trunks = Ginyu?

While we never had anything specific regarding how much the kids have progressed, it seems pretty unlikely that they would be below First Form Freeza, even in their base forms. I could never picture beings that are merely Ginyu tier being able to land hits on post Buu Arc Base Goten and Trunks.
The recent material may suggest that Base Saiyans at that point, even Goku and Gohan, are not quite able to defeat Freeza. So if both are really comparable to Freeza, for Goten and Trunks to have that kind of upper hand... Even Goku has to transform to take on Merged Aka, which seems plausible with what Tarble predicted.


Well the only thing that really suggested anything about the Base Saiyans being weaker than Frieza was what Beerus said in BoG. With that said, he was most likely referring to Final Form Frieza at 100% of his power. It wouldn't make sense, if the Base Saiyans at this point (even Goten and Trunks), were below First Form Frieza. Goku turning SSJ against Aka shows us some indication that Aka is likely somewhere close to the realm of maximum power Frieza wields. In any case, whether or not he's stronger than Frieza's maximum doesn't seem as relevant as where Abo and Cado stand individually when trying to determine Trunks and Goten's base power.

As for Abo and Cado, I don't see why they either have to be barely above First Form Frieza or on par with Final Form Frieza (100%). I personally find it very reasonable to place them each at around 15-20% of Final Form Frieza at his max, which would in turn imply that the young Saiyans in their base form are more or less around there as well.

We can probably assume that Base Goku at this point of the story is anywhere between 50% - 90% of Frieza's full power, so taking that into consideration, it seems to make a lot of sense for the kids to be somewhere around 15-20% of Frieza's full power.

I never took their fight against 18 at the tournament too seriously, as it seems very plausible that she would hold back thinking Mighty Mask was just a strong human.

If one is that adamant about placing the kids around 18, then I guess one way for that to work is for us to assume that the 2008 Special was in the same timeline as GT (where Base Saiyans are likely above Frieza), which was also seemingly a completely different timeline as BoG and FnF.

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Re: Abo and Cado's Power

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Jun 06, 2015 10:00 pm

I guess people are forgetting that in the manga version Abo and Cado get one shotted.

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Re: Abo and Cado's Power

Post by Kaboom » Sat Jun 06, 2015 10:05 pm

They get beaten pretty easily in the original animated version too, once Goten and Trunks stop sucking. Since the end result is the same, I guess it's up to the individual to decide which version they prefer to put more weight in.
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Re: Abo and Cado's Power

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sun Jun 07, 2015 12:50 pm

Since the OVA was the original version and the manga was an adaptation of it, I prefer to treat the OVA as higher canon.
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Re: Abo and Cado's Power

Post by ZombieVito » Sun Jun 07, 2015 3:58 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:Since the OVA was the original version and the manga was an adaptation of it, I prefer to treat the OVA as higher canon.
Even if AT considers the manga version the superior one?

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Re: Abo and Cado's Power

Post by Hitiro » Sun Jun 07, 2015 4:44 pm

Zombie wrote:
Polyphase Avatron wrote:Since the OVA was the original version and the manga was an adaptation of it, I prefer to treat the OVA as higher canon.
Even if AT considers the manga version the superior one?
Does he consider it the superior one? I wouldn't think that matters anyway. the manga version is clearly an adaptation much like the anime is an adaptation of the manga. There are differences that separate them.

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Re: Abo and Cado's Power

Post by dbgtFO » Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:16 pm

Hitiro wrote:
Zombie wrote:
Polyphase Avatron wrote:Since the OVA was the original version and the manga was an adaptation of it, I prefer to treat the OVA as higher canon.
Even if AT considers the manga version the superior one?
Does he consider it the superior one? I wouldn't think that matters anyway. the manga version is clearly an adaptation much like the anime is an adaptation of the manga. There are differences that separate them.
He said the special had some "problems" that needed fixing in the manga IIRC.

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Re: Abo and Cado's Power

Post by Hitiro » Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:53 pm

dbgtFO wrote:He said the special had some "problems" that needed fixing in the manga IIRC.
Oh? Do you know what the problems were exactly? I actually thought that it was a pretty strong movie overall.

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Re: Abo and Cado's Power

Post by dbgtFO » Sun Jun 07, 2015 7:51 pm

Hitiro wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:He said the special had some "problems" that needed fixing in the manga IIRC.
Oh? Do you know what the problems were exactly? I actually thought that it was a pretty strong movie overall.
I wish I did, but of course Toriyama didn't mention whatever it was just like he didn't mention, at which point he thought the anime was going way off-point.
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Re: Abo and Cado's Power

Post by Bullza » Sun Jun 07, 2015 9:15 pm

I always imagined that About and Cado were as strong as Frieza in his first form. Pretty much nobody ever saw his more evolved forms. Even Vegeta who was one of his top guys didn't know he could transform.

It makes more sense that way too.

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