Goten and Trunks Full-Power Super Saiyans?

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Goten and Trunks Full-Power Super Saiyans?

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Thu Jun 25, 2015 5:07 pm

Do you think they are? I think yes. Here's why.

When we first see Goten transform, his appearance in the form is very similar to that of Gohan and Goku's when they exited the Room of Spirit and Time... no aura, round eyes, and a lighter shade of yellow for their hair color (in the anime at least). None of these features were ever shown on a non-mastered Super Saiyan.
On top of this, they have the same aura as a Full Power Super Saiyan.
Their strength may also support them being Full-Power Super Saiyans. Not saying this is evidence, but when we first see FPSS we see how strong Goku and Gohan are compared to Trunks and Vegeta, despite having less time to train. Goten, based on his sparring with Gohan and guidebook info, is very similar to Gohan in power. So, perhaps the reason for them being so strong is because they're FPSS?

And finally, we see Trunks has the ability to suppress his Ki in Super Saiyan. So are they FPSS, or no?

Is there any supplementary (guidebooks) info?

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Re: Goten and Trunks Full-Power Super Saiyans?

Post by fadeddreams5 » Thu Jun 25, 2015 5:33 pm

I believe they are. However, correct me if I'm wrong, but FPSSJ just means they're fully adapted to the form and can maintain it naturally without it sapping their strength or altering their emotions like it would an untrained SSJ.

I don't think they're as strong as a 2nd grade SSJ from the Cell Games or FPSSJ Goku and FPSSJ Gohan from that saga either. That would imply they could at least hold their own against Dabura, which I don't see happening.
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Re: Goten and Trunks Full-Power Super Saiyans?

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Thu Jun 25, 2015 5:34 pm

Who used SSG2 at the Cell Games?

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Re: Goten and Trunks Full-Power Super Saiyans?

Post by fadeddreams5 » Thu Jun 25, 2015 5:56 pm

Mr. Satan.
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Re: Goten and Trunks Full-Power Super Saiyans?

Post by supercat » Thu Jun 25, 2015 6:08 pm

I've always assumed that they were FPSSJ. Their laid back demeanor and appearance, in conjunction with the absence of obvious signs pertaining to ki consumption, tells me that they've learned to control the full extent of their SSJ abilities.

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Re: Goten and Trunks Full-Power Super Saiyans?

Post by Kaboom » Thu Jun 25, 2015 6:27 pm

It seems to me that the form simply comes naturally to them, allowing them to gain and maintain the form easily and have some control over their power with it. But I doubt they have the amount of absolute and total control that Gohan and Goku trained for and Vegeta apparently followed suit with.

Also, being a "full-power Super Saiyan" doesn't actually guarantee a certain level of strength; you're not automatically a Cell Games contender just by having that ability. Goku could have mastered Super Saiyan immediately after Namek, but still gotten his butt kicked by the Androids unless he also trained to increase his power and surpass them. The term "Super Saiyan Full Power" just comes from either one of two things:

1) In the mastered state, the Saiyan is able to use their power to its full extent, with none being wasted by transforming or maintaining the form, or...
2) Daizenshuu #2 used the term for Goku in Volume 34 simply because that's when he finally revealed his full power to fight Cell, rather than being suppressed/relaxed or showing off just about half for Karin before that.
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Re: Goten and Trunks Full-Power Super Saiyans?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Fri Jun 26, 2015 7:03 pm

Mastering SS by itself gives big gains in power according to the SEG, so it would explain why Goten & Trunks are so strong just by "playing fight" over the years. Vegeta & Future Trunks also display the same aura after their 2nd day in RoSaT, so it looks like they have mastered the form as well. Gotenks & Vegetto have this aura too, which would make sense if Goku, Vegeta, Goten, and Trunks have all mastered the form. However, we have no official confirmation that Vegeta, Future Trunks, Goten, Trunks, Gotenks, and Vegetto are have actually achieved Super Saiyan Full Power.
Kaboom wrote:Daizenshuu #2 used the term for Goku in Volume 34 simply because that's when he finally revealed his full power to fight Cell, rather than being suppressed/relaxed or showing off just about half for Karin before that.
False. Daizenshuu 10 names the form Super Saiyan Full Power for both Goku & Gohan. Meaning that it's not just "this is SS Goku, at full power!", it's the name of the new form that Goku & Gohan achieved, or rather, the upgraded version of the original form.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Goten and Trunks Full-Power Super Saiyans?

Post by dbgtFO » Fri Jun 26, 2015 7:20 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Kaboom wrote:Daizenshuu #2 used the term for Goku in Volume 34 simply because that's when he finally revealed his full power to fight Cell, rather than being suppressed/relaxed or showing off just about half for Karin before that.
False. Daizenshuu 10 names the form Super Saiyan Full Power for both Goku & Gohan. Meaning that it's not just "this is SS Goku, at full power!", it's the name of the new form that Goku & Gohan achieved, or rather, the upgraded version of the original form.
Can you provde the quote and context please?

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Re: Goten and Trunks Full-Power Super Saiyans?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Fri Jun 26, 2015 7:27 pm

dbgtFO wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Kaboom wrote:Daizenshuu #2 used the term for Goku in Volume 34 simply because that's when he finally revealed his full power to fight Cell, rather than being suppressed/relaxed or showing off just about half for Karin before that.
False. Daizenshuu 10 names the form Super Saiyan Full Power for both Goku & Gohan. Meaning that it's not just "this is SS Goku, at full power!", it's the name of the new form that Goku & Gohan achieved, or rather, the upgraded version of the original form.
Can you provde the quote and context please?
Sure.
Supplemental Daizenshuu - TV Animation Part 3 wrote: Image

Anime Version: Super Saiya-jin Genealogy
The strongest warrior in the universe, the Super Saiya-jin. Here we’ll profile the genealogy of the Super Saiya-jin, including characters who only appeared in the anime, and variations that appeared over the course of Super Saiya-jin evolution!!

Super Saiya-jin
Super Saiya-jin’s biggest distinguishing characteristics are the golden hair that stands up straight, and the green pupils. Also, because they are in a continuous lightly agitated state, their personality also becomes wild. This type is the first grade of Super Saiya-jin, and can be called the base for all Super Saiya-jins.

Broli-type
Broli appeared in the movies. A-type is distinguished by him not having gold hair while he’s a Super Saiya-jin. B-type is a powered up Super Saiya-jin state. He’s called the legendary Super Saiya-jin, since he loves destruction and slaughter, like the Super Saiya-jin of Saiya-jin legend. Both types are from when he fought with Goku on New Planet Vegeta. C-type is his form from when he battles Gohan and the others on Earth; he later transformed into B-type. It’s a Super Saiya-jin that’s evolved differently.

Variations
Grades 2-3 are powered up versions of the Grade 1, which Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks have the ability to transform into. Full Power is a type where they are able to unconsciously exist in the Super Saiya-jin state, and even the wildness of their personality vanishes. Only Goku and Gohan can transform into this.

Super Saiya-jin 2
Super Saiya-jin 2’s distinguishing characteristics are the upright hair and the intense sparks. Even the docile boy Gohan become so violent that he enjoyed fighting. Gohan, Goku, and Babidi-manipulated Vegeta transform into this type.

Gohan-type
This type is also called Ultimate Gohan. While his appearance hasn’t change very much from his normal state, his power surpasses even Super Saiya-jin 2. He’s a Saiya-jin who has achieved a super transformation different from Super Saiya-jin, which puts a large strain on one’s body.

Super Saiya-jin 3
As the Super Saiya-jin that can appropriately be called the strongest, the transformation of their outward appearance is the most intense of all: their eyebrows disappear and their hair becomes long. Apart from Goku, Gotenks can also transform into this!! Aside from the Kamehameha and his other techniques from his normal form, in the movies Goku displays a special attack called the Dragon Fist.

[Freeza] So Super Saiya-jin had these sorts of types!!
Translation by Herms.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Goten and Trunks Full-Power Super Saiyans?

Post by Kaboom » Fri Jun 26, 2015 7:45 pm

Ah, I had a nagging feeling that the term was used elsewhere, but couldn't remember for sure.
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Re: Goten and Trunks Full-Power Super Saiyans?

Post by Pantalones » Fri Jun 26, 2015 10:15 pm

Well, if Trunks is able to suppress his ki and both of them are capable of being Super Saiyan without having the "permanent angry eyes," then they'd have to at least be pretty close to having "mastered" Super Saiyan.

Kind of puzzled as to how they would end up "mastering" the state at their age, without even realizing it, though. They certainly haven't gone around in permanent SSj state for hours/days like Goku and Gohan did. I guess they must have basically been born with the Super Saiyan form already "pre-mastered" and just needed to reach the transformation in the first place before they could use it.

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Re: Goten and Trunks Full-Power Super Saiyans?

Post by Super Vegetto » Sat Jun 27, 2015 8:53 am

Before Cell Games SSJ was never realy used for fun so they all had serious face|eyes when using it,,,it's a form created for battle and in real life it would probably affect them like adrealine affect us and if it hits you for example in fight it's sometimes hard to control...

Well this scan actualy proves that they managed to master the form and achive FP of SSJ

Image

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Re: Goten and Trunks Full-Power Super Saiyans?

Post by Hitiro » Sat Jun 27, 2015 4:30 pm

Pantalones wrote:Well, if Trunks is able to suppress his ki and both of them are capable of being Super Saiyan without having the "permanent angry eyes," then they'd have to at least be pretty close to having "mastered" Super Saiyan.

Kind of puzzled as to how they would end up "mastering" the state at their age, without even realizing it, though. They certainly haven't gone around in permanent SSj state for hours/days like Goku and Gohan did. I guess they must have basically been born with the Super Saiyan form already "pre-mastered" and just needed to reach the transformation in the first place before they could use it.
Well, nothing says that a regular SSJ can't suppress their Ki. So I don't think we should use that as a basis for whether a Saiyan has mastered SSJ or not. Not that I'm saying that couldn't be something that is exclusive to a Saiyan who has mastered SSj.
Super Vegetto wrote:Before Cell Games SSJ was never realy used for fun so they all had serious face|eyes when using it,,,it's a form created for battle and in real life it would probably affect them like adrealine affect us and if it hits you for example in fight it's sometimes hard to control...

Well this scan actualy proves that they managed to master the form and achive FP of SSJ
Really? I don't think that scan really points to them having achieved FPSSJ. I'd say the first time Goten showed the transformation to Gohan and the first time Trunks showed the transformation to Vegeta point more to them having FPSSJ. Because they have relaxed expressions. In this picture it just shows them having a regular SSJ expression.

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Re: Goten and Trunks Full-Power Super Saiyans?

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Sat Jun 27, 2015 4:35 pm

@Hitiro

Their aura. Compare it to a non Full-Power Super Saiyan who's powering up / just transformed.

The Full-Power Super Saiyan aura is spikier / more rapid, similar to Super Saiyan Grade 2's aura. Compare Goten and Trunks' aura to the image I posted of Goku at the Cell Games in the OP.

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Re: Goten and Trunks Full-Power Super Saiyans?

Post by Hitiro » Sat Jun 27, 2015 7:56 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:@Hitiro

Their aura. Compare it to a non Full-Power Super Saiyan who's powering up / just transformed.

The Full-Power Super Saiyan aura is spikier / more rapid, similar to Super Saiyan Grade 2's aura. Compare Goten and Trunks' aura to the image I posted of Goku at the Cell Games in the OP.
I wouldn't rely on their aura's seeing as they have changed and varied constantly over the story. Vegeta also has this aura when he powers up to fire his Big Bang Attack against #20.

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Re: Goten and Trunks Full-Power Super Saiyans?

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Sat Jun 27, 2015 7:57 pm

Well, besides when Vegeta's doing the Big Bang Attack, an amplified attack, no regular Super Saiyans have that aura, if I recall correctly.

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Re: Goten and Trunks Full-Power Super Saiyans?

Post by Hitiro » Sat Jun 27, 2015 8:12 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Well, besides when Vegeta's doing the Big Bang Attack, an amplified attack, no regular Super Saiyans have that aura, if I recall correctly.
I honestly can't recall anybody else. But I remember him having this aura exclusively in this part. I would have to go and look through to see whether there are any others. But wouldn't the powering up as regular SSJ transitioning into SSJG2 not count as this too? Vegeta had this aura for a while before he actually transformed into a SSJG2. And Cell lacked this aura when he powered up into a bulky form in front of Trunks to show him he could do it too. I also think that Vegeta's first SSJ transformation was a bit reminiscent of the later power-ups for the SSJ's.

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Re: Goten and Trunks Full-Power Super Saiyans?

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Sat Jun 27, 2015 8:17 pm

I only believe it's exclusive to SSG2/3 and FPSS, personally.

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Re: Goten and Trunks Full-Power Super Saiyans?

Post by Hitiro » Sat Jun 27, 2015 8:19 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:I only believe it's exclusive to SSG2/3 and FPSS, personally.
Well that's up to you, but like I said. The aura's have been a bit inconsistent throughout the story. Personally I'd rather rely on something we know as a fact. And that is that their faces and personalities are more natural as a FPSSJ. This was a major point brought up by Vegeta and Piccolo when Goku and Gohan came out of the RoSaT.

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Re: Goten and Trunks Full-Power Super Saiyans?

Post by Doctor. » Sat Jun 27, 2015 8:51 pm

Future Trunks has that kind of aura when he goes to kill the androids and he had literally no time at all to master the form.

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