Goten's Implication Towards Goku

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Goten's Implication Towards Goku

Post by h0kuten » Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:58 pm

(scanlation removed by administrator)

The Manga is read from right to left, and from that narrative direction we see that Goten implies Goku is the strongest on Earth prior to talking about Old Man Gyumaou or how broke Goku is. Interestingly as well is that Goku is talking about training, when Goten makes this implication.

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Re: Goten's Implication Towards Goku

Post by Darkprince410 » Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:23 pm

Goten's joke doesn't need Goku to actually be the strongest for it to work though. With Goku being the third strongest by the final battle with Buu (Gohan and Gotenks being stronger), it'd still work to show why Goku "feared" her so much if she were the strongest in the world.

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Re: Goten's Implication Towards Goku

Post by Hitiro » Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:24 pm

I would imagine Gohan still fears his mother too. So by that standard she would be the strongest if Gohan is still the strongest on Earth.

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Re: Goten's Implication Towards Goku

Post by h0kuten » Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:27 pm

It doesn't make sense for Goku to say he needs to train in case someone like Majin Buu comes back if Gohan were stronger, it would make less sense if Gohan was stronger and Goten said that while talking to Goku.

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Re: Goten's Implication Towards Goku

Post by rereboy » Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:45 pm

h0kuten wrote:It doesn't make sense for Goku to say he needs to train in case someone like Majin Buu comes back if Gohan were stronger,
So, just because Gohan was stronger at the end of the Buu saga, Goku wouldn't train to better himself and for whatever threat might appear?

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Re: Goten's Implication Towards Goku

Post by Darkprince410 » Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:55 pm

Goku specifically says that he and Vegeta would need to train so that if they did need to fight (which he describes as a worse case scenario) they'd be in a position to win without the need for teaming up or fusing.
Goku: “Well, it’s alright, ain’t it Vegeta? This Boo and Mister Satan both did well. If these two hadn’t been here, then we and everyone else would have been done in. Right?…And if worse comes to worse, we can just fight again. Let’s train so that this time for sure we won’t lose even if we go one-on-one.”

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Re: Goten's Implication Towards Goku

Post by h0kuten » Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:06 pm

I don't see what that has to do with anything. However, Goten is talking to his dad directly but referencing a character that hasn't appeared in the manga yet or had anything to do with the dialogue whatsoever? He just randomly overrides Goku for the implication due to fan theories and because the statement... still works?

I'm not sure I'm buying it, that's reallly grasping.

Dragonball Z has always been a pretty straight forward anime.

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Re: Goten's Implication Towards Goku

Post by TheGmGoken » Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:18 pm

Goten looks up to his father. His father that he haven't known for 7 years. A father that Gohan hyped up as the greatest warrior. Of course Goten will think Goku the best. Vegeta could be standing right there as a SSJ500 and Goten would say that his dad is the strongest. Thats his father. Why are we over analysis what the line was meant to be? Chi Chi brings fear into Goku and can make him do anything. Goten knows this. That's all. Nothing more. Nothing less.
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Re: Goten's Implication Towards Goku

Post by Darkprince410 » Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:24 pm

However, it's a direct follow-up to the final battle with Buu, where Gohan and Gotenks were undeniably more powerful than Goku was by a considerable margin. So given the small gap in time between the end of the battle of Buu and the beginning of Super, then fans would be going into it knowing that Gohan and Gotenks were still stronger.

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Re: Goten's Implication Towards Goku

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:33 pm

"Speak of the devil"

Response.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am
I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: Goten's Implication Towards Goku

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:36 pm

h0kuten wrote:Dragonball Z has always been a pretty straight forward anime.
Goku (3 times): "Gotenks will be enough to beat Fat Buu!"

Wouldn't those be right in a pretty straight forward anime?

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Re: Goten's Implication Towards Goku

Post by Marco Polo » Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:38 pm

Pretty sure their reason for training is just an excuse. We all know full-blooded Saiyans LIVE to fight. They train because they enjoy it.

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Re: Goten's Implication Towards Goku

Post by h0kuten » Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:08 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:
h0kuten wrote:Dragonball Z has always been a pretty straight forward anime.
Goku (3 times): "Gotenks will be enough to beat Fat Buu!"

Wouldn't those be right in a pretty straight forward anime?
The only problem is Gotenks never fought Fat Majin Buu after fusing, the only time he did, he lost. Whereas this new implication can work because Goku actually fought Kid Buu after everyone else had failed.

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Re: Goten's Implication Towards Goku

Post by Darkprince410 » Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:50 pm

At the same time, you have all the forms of Evil Buu being significantly more powerful than Goku is, to where Goku was too scared to even try and fight Evil Buu without fusing. Given that Gohan and Gotenks were both able to fight against a form of Buu that Goku was too scared to even attempt to fight, it's unreasonable to assume that there's enough time between the battle with Buu and the beginning of Super for Goku have closed the gap between them and him.

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Re: Goten's Implication Towards Goku

Post by h0kuten » Wed Jul 01, 2015 11:38 pm

They don't necessarily have to be more powerful than Goku. Gohan's Mystic state could simply be a 4x AMP of his Z-Sword self, in other-words, his own unique version of Ssj3. The kids could use the Metamoran as an alternative for Ssj3, seeing as how that tier of power suddenly the next big thing in the Majin Buu Saga. At least that's how I've been looking at it recently.

Goku states Fat Buu is stronger than himself.
Goku states he and Vegeta couldn't beat Super Buu
Goku regretted not using the Potara against Kid Buu, after having fought him a while.

It all sounds the same doesn't it?

Even attempting to use Occams Razor requires you to make grand assumptions that Gotenks was stronger than Fat Majin Buu when the two never actually fought. So by that logic, it doesn't work.

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Re: Goten's Implication Towards Goku

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Wed Jul 01, 2015 11:51 pm

h0kuten wrote:They don't necessarily have to be more powerful than Goku.
It's pretty much stated, on multiple occasions.
h0kuten wrote:Gohan's Mystic state could simply be a 4x AMP of his Z-Sword self, in other-words, his own unique version of Ssj3.
It's him going fa~ar beyond his limits, not a multiplier.
h0kuten wrote:The kids could use the Metamoran as an alternative for Ssj3, seeing as how that tier of power suddenly the next big thing in the Majin Buu Saga.

They did use it as an alternative for SS3, then they got two more transformations on top of that.
h0kuten wrote:Goku states Fat Buu is stronger than himself.
And he later retracts it.
h0kuten wrote:Goku states he and Vegeta couldn't beat Super Buu
Three times, actually, and he doesn't retract them.
h0kuten wrote:Goku regretted not using the Potara against Kid Buu, after having fought him a while.
He underestimated Pure Buu's resiliency and the strain Super Saiyan 3 would have on his living body. Him regretting not using the potara doesn't make Pure Buu stronger than himself, all Goku said is that it would make it easier.
h0kuten wrote:It all sounds the same doesn't it?
No.
h0kuten wrote:Even attempting to use Occams Razor requires you to make grand assumptions that Gotenks was stronger than Fat Majin Buu when the two never actually fought. So by that logic, it doesn't work.
If you're going to steal my words, at least know how to use them right.

Goku's predictions of Gotenks' strength are right by virtue of Occam's Razor, so that would be using Occam's Razor.

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Re: Goten's Implication Towards Goku

Post by h0kuten » Wed Jul 01, 2015 11:59 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:
h0kuten wrote:They don't necessarily have to be more powerful than Goku.
It's pretty much stated, on multiple occasions.
They are stated to be more powerful than Fat Buu, but this is never actually proven.
h0kuten wrote:Gohan's Mystic state could simply be a 4x AMP of his Z-Sword self, in other-words, his own unique version of Ssj3.
It's him going fa~ar beyond his limits, not a multiplier.
Gohan's previous limits were heavily implied during The Cell Games, Ssjin2. Going to Ssj3 tier would count as far~ar beyond his limits.
h0kuten wrote:The kids could use the Metamoran as an alternative for Ssj3, seeing as how that tier of power suddenly the next big thing in the Majin Buu Saga.

They did use it as an alternative for SS3, then they got two more transformations on top of that.
h0kuten wrote:Goku states Fat Buu is stronger than himself.
And he later retracts it.
Only after realizing that was Majin Buu's full power.
h0kuten wrote:Goku states he and Vegeta couldn't beat Super Buu
Three times, actually, and he doesn't retract them.
Goku retracted it when he said they would defeat Super Buu.
h0kuten wrote:Goku regretted not using the Potara against Kid Buu, after having fought him a while.
He underestimated Pure Buu's resiliency and the strain Super Saiyan 3 would have on his living body. Him regretting not using the potara doesn't make Pure Buu stronger than himself, all Goku said is that it would make it easier.
The similarities between Goku's views on the 3 Majin Buu's being superior to himself still stands. Goku affirms he needs to train and train to defeat Kid Buu in the future, debunking Manga enthusiasts who believe Kid Buu & Goku are equals.
h0kuten wrote:It all sounds the same doesn't it?

No.
h0kuten wrote:Even attempting to use Occams Razor requires you to make grand assumptions that Gotenks was stronger than Fat Majin Buu when the two never actually fought. So by that logic, it doesn't work.

If you're going to steal my words, at least know how to use them right.
I did

Goku's predictions of Gotenks' strength are right by virtue of Occam's Razor, so that would be using Occam's Razor.

It actually requires more of an assumption to believe Gotenks is stronger, because it's never proven after the source material (the fusion) is never displayed, shown. or stated to be stronger after the ritual..

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Re: Goten's Implication Towards Goku

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:05 am

They are stated to be more powerful than Fat Buu, but this is never actually proven.
Krillin sensed Super Saiyan Gotenks' Ki and still believed he was the strongest.
Gohan's previous limits were heavily implied during The Cell Games, Ssjin2. Going to Ssj3 tier would count as far~ar beyond his limits.
When is that ever implied.
Only after realizing that was Majin Buu's full power.
..and? How does this help your argument? The point is, Goku admitted he could've beat Fat Buu but never said the same for Super Buu.
Goku retracted it when he said they would defeat Super Buu.
He never said he could defeat Super Buu. He said the only way out is to beat him, that doesn't automatically say he can. Obviously there's no other way to get out.
The similarities between Goku's views on the 3 Majin Buu's being superior to himself still stands. Goku affirms he needs to train and train to defeat Kid Buu in the future, debunking Manga enthusiasts who believe Kid Buu & Goku are equals.

Goku needs to train to reduce the Super Saiyan 3 strain on his body so he'd be able to finish someone off at equal levels without running out of stamina first, and not having to resort to a Genki Dama. Still doesn't make Pure Buu stronger.
I did

No you didn't.
It actually requires more of an assumption to believe Gotenks is stronger, because it's never proven after the source material (the fusion) is never displayed, shown. or stated to be stronger after the ritual..

Nice strawman. I am going by what the characters say, you're assuming the opposite of what they say is true. Prove him wrong, Piccolo and Krillin disagree with the notion of Gotenks being weaker than Buu, also.

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Re: Goten's Implication Towards Goku

Post by The Monkey King » Thu Jul 02, 2015 7:42 am

Wow even for Goku wanker standards this is reaching

Btw SSJ2 Future Gohan is right on all accounts
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Re: Goten's Implication Towards Goku

Post by Hitiro » Thu Jul 02, 2015 7:54 am

SSJ3 Gotenks is widely considered to be "on par"/"stronger than" Evil(Super) Boo who is widely considered to be the strongest form of Boo we can practically see that Gotenks has the upperhand in the fight. Just going by that and comments we get from the characters, even only using just comments Goku's made, we can get an understanding of where the characters sit.

Goku's statements:
Strength Checker wrote:Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”
Goku says that even though Boo has reverted a whole lot they are still simply no match for his strength. This places Goku under Evil(Super) Boo.
Strength Checker wrote:Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P11.4-6
Context: as Goku prepares to fight Boo
Goku: “Alrii~~iight. I’d better go all out right from the start…! If we get done in, then the entire universe will go ‘poof’…”
Vegeta: “Let me see this ‘Super Saiyan 3’ thing with my own eyes…”
Goku: “Is that alright? You just might not get your turn…I can say this now, but the truth is that with that fat Boo, I would have been able to defeat him at the time with Super Saiyan 3…However, I wanted the young guys to manage something…For the Earth’s sake too…”
Goku tells us that he could beat Fat Boo.
Strength Checker wrote:Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.1-6
Vegeta: “Don’t hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Boo with your ki once you gather it with all your might…!”
Goku: “Ye…yeah…I’ve been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but…I haven’t gotten the chance.”
Vegeta: “Eh?”
Goku: “If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather ki for about one minute.”
Vegeta: “One minute?!”
Goku: “Dammnit~~~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. …..Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this…!”
Vegeta: “…S …So you weren’t thinking of me…”
Implies Goku could beat Pure Boo if he can gather 100% of his Ki. But as we saw in the story his stamina failed him because he underestimated the drain on his stamina in SSJ3 while alive.
Strength Checker wrote:Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P7.4
Context: after Vegeta has the Earth brought back with the dragonballs
Goku: “Oh, I know! You’ll bring Gohan and Gotenks back to life so they can fight.”
Vegeta: “No.”
Goku assumes Vegeta is suggesting they bring Gohan and Gotenks back to life so they can fight. If they weren't capable of beating Pure Boo why even suggest it?

Where they stand:

Fat Boo < SSJ Gotenks(Hypothetical based on Goku thinking they could win fused and Piccolo saying they'd need SSJ) < Pure(Kid) Boo <= 100% SSJ3 Goku < Evil(Super Boo) <= SSJ3 Gotenks < Gohan

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