Goten's Implication Towards Goku

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
Hitiro
I Live Here
Posts: 3433
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:43 pm

Re: Goten's Implication Towards Goku

Post by Hitiro » Mon Jul 06, 2015 4:50 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:So I don't believe Goku didn't want to use his SS3, just that against Pure Boo was the only time he absolutely had to (since Gohan and Gotenks were dead and Vegeta wouldn't fuse.)
Well he also had to do it when Evil Boo showed up. Gohan and the kids were out of commission and Vegeta didn't want to fuse there either. The only thing that saved them was Vegeta thinking fast and cutting Mr. Boo out.

SSJ2FutureGohan
I Live Here
Posts: 2496
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2014 1:29 am

Re: Goten's Implication Towards Goku

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Mon Jul 06, 2015 4:55 pm

Hitiro wrote:Well he also had to do it when Evil Boo showed up. Gohan and the kids were out of commission and Vegeta didn't want to fuse there either. The only thing that saved them was Vegeta thinking fast and cutting Mr. Boo out.
Well yeah perhaps I worded that funny. I guess I meant at that point he was still trying to convince Vegeta to fuse and didn't rule it out as an option yet. But by the Pure Boo fight, he realized Vegeta wouldn't fuse and accepted that, and wasn't extremely outmatched by Pure Boo like he is against Evil Boo.

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 4631
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Goten's Implication Towards Goku

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:08 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:The way I see it, Goku was expecting Boo to further power up, and thus he when he said he was unsure he could beat Boo, he wasn't lying, he truly was unsure. Goku noted Boo's Ki is like a lie, so he perhaps wasn't aware of the true depths of Fat Boo's full power.
You know, maybe he was foreseeing troublesome events and justifying his hopes on Fusion to deal with further threats, but in the end Goku debunked the idea that he couldn't beat Fat Boo if he felt like. He also admited in the first episode of DBS that he couldn't defeat Pure Boo by himself.
Hitiro wrote:It is illogical because Vegeta said he saw everything from the afterlife. So he would know how strong SSJ3 was in comparison to himself.
Vegeta saw SS3 and knew it was strong enough to fight Good Boo, but he didn't know how strong Goku really was until seeing him fighting Pure Boo. That's how Vegeta realized he couldn't fight like intended. You could say Vegeta expected SS3 Goku to not be leagues ahead of him.

When they were fighting Evil Boo, there was this thing about Goku insisting on fusions and Vegeta refusing them. I believe @SSJ2FutureGohan and @khalildh presented very well that point. You could say that if Fusion and his sons are still in the game Goku would never resort to SS3. Really, Goku had Vegeta, Gotenks and Gohan as options while Evil Boo was still around, they just needed to get out from his insides. Since he realized Vegeta wouldn't cooperate again and his retrieved sons were dead, Goku decided to do things at his own.

Of course, narrative-speaking this theory also works with SS3 Goku not being able to match Evil Boo. It depends on your preference.
Last edited by Hugo Boss on Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.

SSJ2FutureGohan
I Live Here
Posts: 2496
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2014 1:29 am

Re: Goten's Implication Towards Goku

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:12 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:You know, maybe he was foreseeing troublesome events and justifying his hopes on Fusion to deal with further threats, but in the end Goku debunked the idea that he couldn't beat Fat Boo if he felt like. He also admited in the first episode of DBS that he couldn't defeat Pure Boo by himself.
I am fine if you see it that way, I was just saying that's how I see it. I personally feel if he knew he could've finished Boo from the start he would've done that and then teach fusion to the boys so there's no risk of Boo destroying the Earth or the boys not learning fusion in time or anything.

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 4631
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Goten's Implication Towards Goku

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:21 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:I personally feel if he knew he could've finished Boo from the start he would've done that and then teach fusion to the boys so there's no risk of Boo destroying the Earth or the boys not learning fusion in time or anything.
It's okay to think like this, but I guess Goku probably feared the kids would lack the motivation to perfect Fusion if Boo wasn't around. They needed to experience some tension at least.

User avatar
Hitiro
I Live Here
Posts: 3433
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:43 pm

Re: Goten's Implication Towards Goku

Post by Hitiro » Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:31 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Hitiro wrote:It is illogical because Vegeta said he saw everything from the afterlife. So he would know how strong SSJ3 was in comparison to himself.
Vegeta saw SS3 and knew it was strong enough to fight Good Boo, but he didn't know how strong Goku really was until seeing him fighting Pure Boo. That's how Vegeta realized he couldn't fight like intended. You could say Vegeta expected SS3 Goku to not be leagues ahead of him.
Vegeta never hinted that he didn't know how strong the form is. All he said was that he wanted to see the form with his own eyes rather than from the Afterlife. If the Kaioshin, Kibito and Gohan could all feel Goku's Ki from the Kaioshin world there is no doubt Vegeta could feel it. So yes, it is illogical.
Strength Checker wrote:Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P11.4-6
Context: as Goku prepares to fight Boo
Goku: “Alrii~~iight. I’d better go all out right from the start…! If we get done in, then the entire universe will go ‘poof’…”
Vegeta: “Let me see this ‘Super Saiyan 3’ thing with my own eyes…”
Goku: “Is that alright? You just might not get your turn…I can say this now, but the truth is that with that fat Boo, I would have been able to defeat him at the time with Super Saiyan 3…However, I wanted the young guys to manage something…For the Earth’s sake too…”
Hugo Boss wrote:When they were fighting Evil Boo, there was this thing about Goku insisting on fusions and Vegeta refusing them. I believe @SSJ2FutureGohan and @khalildh presented very well that point. You could say that if Fusion and his sons are still in the game Goku would never resort to SS3. Really, Goku had Vegeta, Gotenks and Gohan as options while Evil Boo was still around, they just needed to get out from his insides. Since he realized Vegeta wouldn't cooperate again and his retrieved sons were dead, Goku decided to do things at his own.
But the fusion and Goku's sons weren't in the game. Vegeta flat out refused fusion before Evil Boo popped up inside himself, Gohan and the kids were also incapacitated. So Goku would resort to SSJ3 and it would still not be enough. Even Evil Boo said they stood no chance. Goku literally had no options and there was no way to guarantee that they could get Gohan and Gotenks to fight Evil Boo if they got out of him. That is why Goku suggested fusion in the first place.
Hugo Boss wrote:Of course, narrative-speaking this theory also works with SS3 Goku not being able to match Evil Boo. It depends on your preference.
It's all out in the open, there is literally no reason for Goku to say they don't stand a chance unless they literally didn't stand a chance. His personality is a stark difference compared to Pure Boo. He was relieved when they had to fight him and felt there was no need for fusion. Contrast to him begging Vegeta to fuse before Evil Boo became Pure Boo. I don't see why this isn't abundantly clear.

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 4631
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Goten's Implication Towards Goku

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:48 pm

Hitiro wrote:So yes, it is illogical.

...text...

I don't see why this isn't abundantly clear.
There are other plausible interpretations that may differ from your view, while still not being more or less correct.

If you check @Herms' translations, you can also find one panel where Vegeta acknowledges he didn't expect Boo and Goku to be so much stronger than him. So any impression Vegeta had from his afterlife's view was not exactly the same as he had when he saw SS3 in a close range.

I guess Goku and Vegeta resorting to fight as Super Saiyans and using Evil Boo's weakness against him mess a little with that notion that Goku had no choice but to use SS3 against Evil Boo. I also believe that it's not like Goku didn't really feel the need to fuse against Pure Boo, he just finally accepted Vegeta's refuse in helping him with it. Not to mention he admited later they should have used Potara instead of fighting by themselves and that they needed to train in order to face someone like Boo again.

User avatar
Hitiro
I Live Here
Posts: 3433
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:43 pm

Re: Goten's Implication Towards Goku

Post by Hitiro » Tue Jul 07, 2015 12:22 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:If you check @Herms' translations, you can also find one panel where Vegeta acknowledges he didn't expect Boo and Goku to be so much stronger than him. So any impression Vegeta had from his afterlife's view was not exactly the same as he had when he saw SS3 in a close range.
Yes, Vegeta says that this Boo is stronger than he had imagined. He also says Goku was. But the problem here is there is no way for us to know at what point he came to realise that Goku was way above him. The only statement we get indicates that he had not realised Pure Boo's strength. Vegeta knew Goku had become stronger but the point he had realised Goku had become stronger than he could imagine could have happened when Goku demonstrated SSJ3 for the very first time. All we can do is rely on what is given to us in the manga. And there is nothing to indicate he didn't know Goku's strength when they were in Evil Boo. Not that this should even matter because this didn't stop Goku from using SSJ3 against Pure Boo. So why should it stop him while he is inside Evil Boo? So yes, it is totally illogical to assume Goku would forgo transforming into SSJ3 to beat Evil Boo just because of Vegeta. The circumstances were entirely the same, they couldn't use Gohan or Gotenks and Vegeta had refused fusion. It would make more sense for him to not use it because he knows it would do no good against an opponent vastly stronger than himself.
Hugo Boss wrote:I guess Goku and Vegeta resorting to fight as Super Saiyans and using Evil Boo's weakness against him mess a little with that notion that Goku had no choice but to use SS3 against Evil Boo. I also believe that it's not like Goku didn't really feel the need to fuse against Pure Boo, he just finally accepted Vegeta's refuse in helping him with it. Not to mention he admited later they should have used Potara instead of fighting by themselves and that they needed to train in order to face someone like Boo again.
If he could have finished Evil Boo with SSJ3 he would have. Evil Boo says they stand no chance against him, there is no reason to assume his statement wasn't including SSJ3 Goku because we know Evil Boo knows of SSJ3 Goku. Both from the fight against Fat Boo and before Boo lost the Gotenks fusion.

Goku also said "And if worse comes to worse, we can just fight again. Let’s train so that this time for sure we won’t lose even if we go one-on-one." implying if the situation is this dire again, as in they can't use Gohan or Gotenks again, then they would step in and they would train so that they could beat him one-on-one.
Last edited by Hitiro on Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
TheGmGoken
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 10592
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:19 pm
Location: Capsule Corps

Re: Goten's Implication Towards Goku

Post by TheGmGoken » Tue Jul 07, 2015 2:51 pm

I honestly don't get this thread. I really don't. Can someone explain to me?
Goten implies Goku is the strongest on Earth prior to talking about Old Man Gyumaou or how broke Goku is.
Don't all sons who don't have a deadbeat dad think their dad's the best in the world? Not to mentioned it's a gag for Chi Chi. Are we really debating a line from a 7 year old who was making a joke and probably thinks his dad a GOAT?

I don't mind the subject of power levels but this is confusing me.

User avatar
h0kuten
Banned
Posts: 853
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2014 1:24 pm

Re: Goten's Implication Towards Goku

Post by h0kuten » Tue Jul 07, 2015 4:44 pm

Hitiro wrote:
khalildh wrote:This is a post I wrote in October. It seems like it might be relevant for this discussion.

In order to understand the Boo saga one must first realize that up until Goku gains his life back he does not want to use SSJ3 or be the world's savior again.

Goku first does not want to fight Majin Boo and says he has a fusion technique to teach. Mind you Goku doesn't even suggest Goten and Trunks, that is Mr. Popo. Goku then says he will stall so they can learn the technique. Goku doesn't want to win because he knows one day a stronger threat may arise.

The next time we see Goku on earth is when Super Boo has absorbed earth's hope Gotenks and is about to destroy earth's hope number 2 Gohan. This is the next time we see SSJ3.

So far there is an example set of Goku only using SSJ3 in dire situations. The first one where stalling and not finishing the threat is best for the potential future, and the next time where everyone else on the planet is already dead and the Earth's last hope is about to die. Goku isn't strong enough to defeat this threat, but it does help him.

The next time we see Goku is when he is with Vegeta, and the one thing Goku does not want to do is mess with Vegeta's pride. That is why all throughout there fight Goku does not even hint at a new form. Even still while facing the dire outcome of dieing against Super Boo, Goku still does not want to use SSJ3. Goku says they will find another way to win. He does not want to have to use SSJ3 to win because he thinks it is unfair.

Goku only again decides to use SSJ3 as another last resort when both Gotenks and Gohan, the earth's potential saviors are dead.

tldr;

As you can see the Boo saga is really about how Goku, the word's hero, no longer feels responsible for the world and must make tough and seemingly unorthodox decisions in order to get the next generation ready for a world without him. However it all back fires when he must come to the realization that he is the only one capable of saving the day.

Pure Boo > Evil Boo > Majin Boo

First Goku does not want to be the savior.
Then Goku does not want to have to use SSJ3 in front of Vegeta.
Finally Goku has no other options and must save the day.

The story is really simple when you look at it that way, and the narration fits perfectly in line with this.
Goku had no other options when they had to fight Evil Boo. So this is illogical. His statement holds up that they couldn't beat Evil Boo unless they weakened him further. He literally says they have no chance. Vegeta already knew about SSJ3 at this point so it would make little sense for Goku to not want to use the form in front of Vegeta. Especially in this dire situation.
The original intention when they entered Super Buu's body is that they were going to revert Buu to the very first one of all and free the others. With that the new saviors of the world (Ultimate Gohan and Gotenks Ssj3) would be able to defeat Super Buu or Fat Buu, WITHOUT Goku. However, when Super Buu arrives (Which was against their original intentions) Goku once again stands his ground and tells Super Buu not to under estimate him and that they'll defeat him and find a way out.

Keypoints to remember:

a) Goku wouldn't say DON'T UNDERESTIMATE ME, not Vegeta, unless there is an implication there. What is it? Ssj2? No, it's quite obvious it's Ssj3.
b) There is no way in hell Goku would say they'll defeat him unless Goku was referencing his Ssj3. Super Buu doesn't discredit Goku but counters him by stating he can't be beaten in there before it's his body, outside would be a different story.
Hitiro wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:It is not illogical if you think that, though Vegeta knew Goku was stronger as SS3, Goku didn't want Vegeta to know the difference between them was so big. And Goku still thought Vegeta might fuse with him at that time, before both discovering there was still the Good Boo left to be cut off.

It was only during Pure Boo's fight that Goku stated Fusion and Potara were impossible since Vegeta would never allow it again as well as they even intended to fight one at a time, suggesting that Goku also wanted Vegeta to have a chance to fight Boo. It turned out that both Boo and Goku were a lot stronger than Vegeta expected.

By the way, good post, @khalildh.
It is illogical because Vegeta said he saw everything from the afterlife. So he would know how strong SSJ3 was in comparison to himself. Vegeta also out-right said that he didn't want to fuse. Goku also made it seem like fusion was the only way after Boo appeared inside himself straight after Vegeta declined fusion as an option yet again.
Strength Checker wrote:Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P2.4-5
Context: after evil Boo appears inside his own body
Vegeta: “Da…damn it…! Th-this could be bad…”
Goku: “Di-didn’t I tell your to wear your Potara?! Th-this is why! If we could just go outside and merge, then this kind of guy would be an easy victory!”
I think this is pretty much a dire situation. If Goku could handle Evil Boo he would have.
Actually, Vegeta said he saw everything from the after life but was STILL surprised at the power that being out put from Kid Buu & Goku Ssj3. All this mean is:

Goku Ssj3 FP > Goku Ssj3 (Vegeta's Expectations) > Goku Ssj3 (Fighting Fat Buu)

or:

Goku Ssj3 Fp: 36,000,000,000
Kid Buu: 32,000,000,000
Goku Ssj3: 24,000,000,000 (Vegeta's Exptations)
Goku Ssj3: 18,000,000,000 (Fighting Fat Buu)
Fat Buu: 13,750,000,000 (Fat Buu's Full Power, 2.5x Teen Gohan Ssj2)
Majin Vegeta: 9,000,000,000
Gohan Ssj2: 5,500,000,000

That seems like it's really downplaying the Majin Buu Saga in regards to power levels but I'm beginning to think they weren't actually supposed to be so bloated.
TheGmGoken wrote:I honestly don't get this thread. I really don't. Can someone explain to me?
Goten implies Goku is the strongest on Earth prior to talking about Old Man Gyumaou or how broke Goku is.
Don't all sons who don't have a deadbeat dad think their dad's the best in the world? Not to mentioned it's a gag for Chi Chi. Are we really debating a line from a 7 year old who was making a joke and probably thinks his dad a GOAT?

I don't mind the subject of power levels but this is confusing me.
Dragonball Z is a very simply anime and always states whose stronger than who at some point or another. Goten's implication proceeds and counters the previous arguments, because the financial statements weren't even said when Goten implied Goku was the strongest, but were said AFTER.

Also if Goten's word isn't reliable than Ultimate Gohan is weaker than Gotenks. Because Goten said Gohan was stronger, but he isn't reliable, he's a child.

To argue Goten thinks his dad is the best in the world just because he's a child and not a reliable character is seriously grasping at straws.

Come on man,

User avatar
TheGmGoken
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 10592
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:19 pm
Location: Capsule Corps

Re: Goten's Implication Towards Goku

Post by TheGmGoken » Tue Jul 07, 2015 4:59 pm

When did I say he's not reliable? Goten naturally because he's 7 thinks his dad is the greatest. I mean it was nothing serious going on and the scene was gaggy anyway.

User avatar
Hitiro
I Live Here
Posts: 3433
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:43 pm

Re: Goten's Implication Towards Goku

Post by Hitiro » Tue Jul 07, 2015 5:01 pm

h0kuten wrote:The original intention when they entered Super Buu's body is that they were going to revert Buu to the very first one of all and free the others. With that the new saviors of the world (Ultimate Gohan and Gotenks Ssj3) would be able to defeat Super Buu or Fat Buu, WITHOUT Goku. However, when Super Buu arrives (Which was against their original intentions) Goku once again stands his ground and tells Super Buu not to under estimate him and that they'll defeat him and find a way out.

Keypoints to remember:

a) Goku wouldn't say DON'T UNDERESTIMATE ME, not Vegeta, unless there is an implication there. What is it? Ssj2? No, it's quite obvious it's Ssj3.
You realise when Goku said not to underestimate him he was saying it in response to blasting a hole in Evil Boo, right? Something he failed to do. So no, this wasn't implying SSJ3, it was implying that he thought he could blow a hole in Boo's body.
Strength Checker wrote:Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P4.2-4, P6.3-6
Context: as Goku and Vegeta are attacked by evil Boo
Goku: “Alrii—iight! Come at me if you’re gonna. I’ll open up a huge hole inside your body! *Boo smiles* Wh-what are you smiling about?...Do you think I can’t open one?
Boo: “It’s no use.
Goku: “Don’t underestimate me.
*Goku blasts, not much happens*
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “…It di-didn’t have any effect…”
Boo: “It stung a little here *points at head*, that’s all. You guys are now far, far smaller than fleas.”
Goku: “…So we’ve got no choice but to defeat you and then search for an exit somewhere.”
Boo: “No, you can’t defeat me. Not the way you guys are now…You’re gonna die, not me…”
h0kuten wrote:b) There is no way in hell Goku would say they'll defeat him unless Goku was referencing his Ssj3. Super Buu doesn't discredit Goku but counters him by stating he can't be beaten in there before it's his body, outside would be a different story.
Goku doesn't say that they'll defeat Boo, he only says that it is the only choice. If I was stuck in a cave and there was a boulder blocking the way my only choice would be remove the boulder. That doesn't mean I could. It's a passing remark. Boo also points that they can't beat him the way they are now, that would really only imply something that they are currently incapable of. What are they incapable of exactly? Right, fusion. Goku can go SSJ3 here but it isn't going to make the slightest difference, he can't beat him without fusion.
h0kuten wrote:Actually, Vegeta said he saw everything from the after life but was STILL surprised at the power that being out put from Kid Buu & Goku Ssj3.
This certainly isn't the case, all we get from the statement is that he thinks only Goku could handle him. There is no indication he was still surprised at the power Goku was displaying. It may be possible he was but neither the dialogue nor his expression indicate this. It literally means nothing unless we have dialogue that says something along the lines of "To think Kakarotto was this strong!"

SSJ2FutureGohan
I Live Here
Posts: 2496
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2014 1:29 am

Re: Goten's Implication Towards Goku

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Tue Jul 07, 2015 5:06 pm

Just because Vegeta saw Goku from the afterlife, doesn't mean he knew how powerful Goku was. He didn't have a body to sense Ki. He didn't even realize how powerful Boo had became until Gohan-Boo was flying right towards him.

Another thing I want to point out is that Evil Boo had felt SS3 Goku's power, and was still fully confident in going inside his own body and beating Goku. No, he's not arrogant either. He knew Gohan would be stronger than him, so instead of just arrogantly thinking he couldn't be beat, he devised a plan. Didn't feel the need to do that with Goku.
Last edited by SSJ2FutureGohan on Tue Jul 07, 2015 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Hitiro
I Live Here
Posts: 3433
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:43 pm

Re: Goten's Implication Towards Goku

Post by Hitiro » Tue Jul 07, 2015 5:14 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Just because Vegeta saw Goku from the afterlife, doesn't mean he knew how powerful Goku was. He didn't have a body to sense Ki. He didn't even realize how powerful Boo had became until Gohan-Boo was flying right towards him.
We don't know how the afterlife works? He may have retained his senses and abilities until he was judged and sent to hell. He saw SSJ3 but he was surprised to find out Bulma had been eaten and Trunks had been absorbed. So he had to have lost track of the events before Boo powered up. Probably when Goku went back to the afterlife. So it's understandable he didn't realize how powerful Boo if we look at it that way.

SSJ2FutureGohan
I Live Here
Posts: 2496
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2014 1:29 am

Re: Goten's Implication Towards Goku

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Tue Jul 07, 2015 5:17 pm

Unless you can prove clouds can sense Ki, there's no proof he actually felt Goku's Ki.

User avatar
Hitiro
I Live Here
Posts: 3433
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:43 pm

Re: Goten's Implication Towards Goku

Post by Hitiro » Tue Jul 07, 2015 5:21 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Unless you can prove clouds can sense Ki, there's no proof he actually felt Goku's Ki.
There is no indication he didn't either. Which was my point.

User avatar
DBZGTKOSDH
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 12401
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2011 7:45 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Goten's Implication Towards Goku

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Jul 07, 2015 5:25 pm

I don't understand the logic behind this. Goten jokes about Chichi being the strongest being in the universe because everyone is scared of her. Gohan is #1, Gotenks is #2, Goku is #3 according to the manga, and all of them are afraid of Chichi. So, how does this translate into Goku being the strongest in the universe?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

User avatar
h0kuten
Banned
Posts: 853
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2014 1:24 pm

Re: Goten's Implication Towards Goku

Post by h0kuten » Tue Jul 07, 2015 5:32 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Unless you can prove clouds can sense Ki, there's no proof he actually felt Goku's Ki.
Vegeta would need to have a set expectation of Goku in order for him to be surprised.
SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Just because Vegeta saw Goku from the afterlife, doesn't mean he knew how powerful Goku was. He didn't have a body to sense Ki. He didn't even realize how powerful Boo had became until Gohan-Boo was flying right towards him.

Another thing I want to point out is that Evil Boo had felt SS3 Goku's power, and was still fully confident in going inside his own body and beating Goku. No, he's not arrogant either. He knew Gohan would be stronger than him, so instead of just arrogantly thinking he couldn't be beat, he devised a plan. Didn't feel the need to do that with Goku.
Counter:

Cell though he could defeat Kid Gohan Ssj2 at full power but was still completely out-classed.

This infers suppression.

The scenario with Super Buu is no exception.
Hitiro wrote:
h0kuten wrote:The original intention when they entered Super Buu's body is that they were going to revert Buu to the very first one of all and free the others. With that the new saviors of the world (Ultimate Gohan and Gotenks Ssj3) would be able to defeat Super Buu or Fat Buu, WITHOUT Goku. However, when Super Buu arrives (Which was against their original intentions) Goku once again stands his ground and tells Super Buu not to under estimate him and that they'll defeat him and find a way out.

Keypoints to remember:

a) Goku wouldn't say DON'T UNDERESTIMATE ME, not Vegeta, unless there is an implication there. What is it? Ssj2? No, it's quite obvious it's Ssj3.
You realise when Goku said not to underestimate him he was saying it in response to blasting a hole in Evil Boo, right? Something he failed to do. So no, this wasn't implying SSJ3, it was implying that he thought he could blow a hole in Boo's body.
Strength Checker wrote:Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P4.2-4, P6.3-6
Context: as Goku and Vegeta are attacked by evil Boo
Goku: “Alrii—iight! Come at me if you’re gonna. I’ll open up a huge hole inside your body! *Boo smiles* Wh-what are you smiling about?...Do you think I can’t open one?
Boo: “It’s no use.
Goku: “Don’t underestimate me.
*Goku blasts, not much happens*
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “…It di-didn’t have any effect…”
Boo: “It stung a little here *points at head*, that’s all. You guys are now far, far smaller than fleas.”
Goku: “…So we’ve got no choice but to defeat you and then search for an exit somewhere.”
Boo: “No, you can’t defeat me. Not the way you guys are now…You’re gonna die, not me…”
h0kuten wrote:b) There is no way in hell Goku would say they'll defeat him unless Goku was referencing his Ssj3. Super Buu doesn't discredit Goku but counters him by stating he can't be beaten in there before it's his body, outside would be a different story.
Goku doesn't say that they'll defeat Boo, he only says that it is the only choice. If I was stuck in a cave and there was a boulder blocking the way my only choice would be remove the boulder. That doesn't mean I could. It's a passing remark. Boo also points that they can't beat him the way they are now, that would really only imply something that they are currently incapable of. What are they incapable of exactly? Right, fusion. Goku can go SSJ3 here but it isn't going to make the slightest difference, he can't beat him without fusion.
h0kuten wrote:Actually, Vegeta said he saw everything from the after life but was STILL surprised at the power that being out put from Kid Buu & Goku Ssj3.
This certainly isn't the case, all we get from the statement is that he thinks only Goku could handle him. There is no indication he was still surprised at the power Goku was displaying. It may be possible he was but neither the dialogue nor his expression indicate this. It literally means nothing unless we have dialogue that says something along the lines of "To think Kakarotto was this strong!"
Goku still says they will defeat Majin Buu.

There only way that's plausible is if Gokus is to turn Ssj3 during the duration of the fight. Also Super Buu says the reason they can't hurt him is because they are now smaller than fleas. Had it been under normal circumstances it probably would have did some damage.

Goku says we've got no choice but to defeat you THEN search for an exist. There wouldn't be a secondary point that Goku is making unless the first couldn't happen under any circumstances. Super Buu builds on his smaller than fleas logic by stating that they can't defeat him because of the way they are now.

There are these points that prove Vegeta is surprised at both Kid Buu and Goku Ssj3.


Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P8.2
Context: As Goku fights pure Boo
Vegeta:"Kakarot...You're incredible... I am simply no match for that Majin Boo... You're the only one capable of fighting him..."

Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P12-4-6
Context: after Goku fights pure Boo for a bit
Vegeta:"The trust is you were right [that I'd be killed], That Boo is stronger than I imagined... and so are you Kakarot..."

Which also brings me to my closing point. Vegeta was already clearly alive inside SUPER BUU'S body, which also means he could definitely sense his power out-put. In the stratement above Vegeta says THAT BOO (Kid Buu) is stronger than I imagined, which should infer that Kid Boo is also stronger than Super Boo.

SSJ2FutureGohan
I Live Here
Posts: 2496
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2014 1:29 am

Re: Goten's Implication Towards Goku

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Tue Jul 07, 2015 5:36 pm

Vegeta would need to have a set expectation of Goku in order for him to be surprised.
Nice to see you can make up rules whenever it's convenient for your argument.
Counter:

Cell though he could defeat Kid Gohan Ssj2 at full power but was still completely out-classed.

This infers suppression.

The scenario with Super Buu is no exception.
What the... suppression? Goku was suppressed when Gotenks-Boo was racing right towards him?

User avatar
h0kuten
Banned
Posts: 853
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2014 1:24 pm

Re: Goten's Implication Towards Goku

Post by h0kuten » Tue Jul 07, 2015 5:39 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:
Vegeta would need to have a set expectation of Goku in order for him to be surprised.
Nice to see you can make up rules whenever it's convenient for your argument.
Counter:

Cell though he could defeat Kid Gohan Ssj2 at full power but was still completely out-classed.

This infers suppression.

The scenario with Super Buu is no exception.
What the... suppression? Goku was suppressed when Gotenks-Boo was racing right towards him?
No that's just logic.

As was stated before, Vegeta probably stopped sensing the planet after Goku lost his body. So he wouldn't have the chance to sense Goku.

Post Reply