Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

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Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by h0kuten » Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:23 pm

Why couldn't someone surpass them?

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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:29 pm

They are surpassed. By Boo's absorption forms, Vegetto, Gods, and GT characters.

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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by dbgtFO » Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:31 pm

When something becomes so ingrained in one's head-canon it can be hard to let go.

Of course they can be surpassed, but we only see Vegeta and Goku definitiely doing so with fusion and God modes.
Still given the way Super is going, it apparently wants us to believe that Goku and Vegeta are already stronger.
Goku is deemed the strongest Saiyan, so I guess he is.

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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by h0kuten » Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:32 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:They are surpassed. By Boo's absorption forms, Vegetto, Gods, and GT characters.
I remember a long time ago it was believed to be a superstition that Goku could, and I quote, surpass Ultimate Gohan in his lifetime.

Well an argument can be made that he surpassed him by Battle of Gods.

As I said 2 years ago, Toriyama won't have Gohan as the strongest, yet here we are a few years later, implying Goku is.

I'm curious as to why people hate Goku (as the main protagonist) surpassing Gohan, regardless of whatever logic you can bring to the table.

It's a well known fact DBZ doesn't follow common logic.

So why is it?

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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by Rocketman » Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:43 pm

Because it's obviously only done to suck off Goku.

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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by h0kuten » Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:44 pm

Rocketman wrote:Because it's obviously only done to suck off Goku.
This is exactly what I mean.

Thx for proving my point m8.

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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by dbzfan7 » Sat Jul 18, 2015 11:26 pm

Well at least for me, it's because of what the story laid out. The half breeds have always been described as having much more potential than the full breeds. Their mix of blood creates a super powered combination of potential, at the expense of not being as battle savvy.

Gohan in particular is someone who is constantly and pretty much in every biography (and I think still is since Herms said none of the bio's have really changed), to have potential higher than Goku. His last power was not only the hidden power we've been built up to from the entire series finally being revealed, the same power said to be greater than what Goku has, but it's far far beyond even that according to the Elder Kaioshin. To have Goku who at this point who's gains were pretty much going down without transformations (after 7 years he's only a little above SSJ2 Kid Gohan barring SSJ3), it seems to me at least to contradict what was established. How do you surpass what has far more potential than you do, and is fully realized? That would mean Goku has far more potential since he can surpass what is Gohan's potential far beyond it's limits.

HOWEVER. Introducing a new form for Goku is the best way to get him on top again. I am in full belief that this is the way to make Goku #1. It's more sensible as SSJG is a whole ritual bringing forth a whole different kind of power. It makes more sense to me to make Goku stronger this way than Goku actually has far more potential than the half breeds and we're abandoning that last concept entirely. Which it seems they did as the end statements of Battle of Gods seem to support that it's now Goku who has the super hidden potential. Vegeta too after the random stunt he pulled. Kinda like with Beerus how no amount of training without the god power could Goku ever compete, some people think it's the same for Gohan and Gotenks.
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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by Rocketman » Sat Jul 18, 2015 11:35 pm

Y'know that prank you play on someone where you change stuff and then pretend it's always been like that? That's basically what DB has been doing vis-a-vis Goku and Gohan ever since the manga ended, hell probably before.

Make no mistake, the manga is blazingly clear - Gohan is far above Goku, and Goku will never catch him because he's tapped out (same for Vegeta).

First, movie 13 (IF GOKU CAN'T DO IT, WHO CAN?!?!?!?!) has Mystic Gohan get rekt while SS3 Goku fights hand-to-hand with Hildy. Though they do have the slight decency to say 'raw strength won't work!', the message is pretty damn clear, especially since this movie came out before the Vegetto episodes. Then the anime adds in a load of bullshit about how Kid Buu is totally the strongest, so Goku is the strongest for fighting him! (which makes goku stronger than vegetto in the anime, but whatevs gokugokugoku)

Then there's GT, which either doesn't have Mystic at all for no reason, knocking Gohan back to where he was before it i.e. slightly above Goten and slightly below Vegeta OR has Mystic and then Gohan goes Super on top of it, putting him...slightly above Goten and slightly below Vegeta. Meanwhile GT Goku is GT Goku.

Then bog comes along and again tries to pretend Mystic doesn't exist until fan outcry makes them recolor his hair...but not actually change the layout of the fight, so the world's strongest is treated as weaker than Vegeta and Gotenks. Even with the "everybody got wrecked!" excuse, Vegeta is able to fight hand-to-hand with Billy
far more than the far, far, far superior Mystic Gohan. By which I mean, "at all". Then they give Vegeta a rage boost from nowhere and make Goku a God (also it suddenly means something in DB to be a god so we can superpower goku by making him one instead of wondering why he couldn't have gotten this powerup back at the 23rd Budokai).

Then faff makes Vegeta a god too, which means that Gohan had to help in the ritual AND use his unborn/infant daughter as a battery, but then refuse to get powered up himself. Instead he's totally lost even the vaguest hints of Mystic so that Goku looks even better for "not needing Super Saiyan", which Gohan hasn't needed for years. And Freeza kills him so we can finally undo that stupid scene from Movie 12 that gave any glory to notgoku.

And now Super, in its tiny bit of existence, has apparently decided that Goku is somehow stronger than Gohan after six months, and with Gohan still Mystic.


In the end, it's not that Goku has surpassed Gohan (although by this point I am rather tired of GOKU BESTEST NO MATTER WHAT). It's the at best lazy, at worst deceitful way they do it.

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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by Tyro » Sat Jul 18, 2015 11:44 pm

Rocketman wrote:First, movie 13 (IF GOKU CAN'T DO IT, WHO CAN?!?!?!?!) has Mystic Gohan get rekt while SS3 Goku fights hand-to-hand with Hildy. Though they do have the slight decency to say 'raw strength won't work!', the message is pretty damn clear, especially since this movie came out before the Vegetto episodes. Then the anime adds in a load of bullshit about how Kid Buu is totally the strongest, so Goku is the strongest for fighting him! (which makes goku stronger than vegetto in the anime, but whatevs gokugokugoku)
DBZ movie #13 came out between episodes 270 and 271, which was 2 episodes before Vegetto is absorbed.

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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by Kaboom » Sat Jul 18, 2015 11:50 pm

Rocketman wrote:In the end, it's not that Goku has surpassed Gohan (although by this point I am rather tired of GOKU BESTEST NO MATTER WHAT). It's the at best lazy, at worst deceitful way they do it.
I have to agree with this sentiment. The events of the manga pretty plainly and clearly laid out that Gohan was a lot stronger than Goku by the end of the Boo arc, but it seems like Toei Animation (and even Toriyama to a certain extent, depending on how much of this new stuff he's actually writing) have done everything possible to undermine that in order to switch things around and insist that Goku is the strongest.

They're not even bothering to offer explanations, either. Saying something like "beyond-your-limits power-ups degrade very quickly without maintenance training" would at least soften the blow, but nope. It's always just "Goku's strongest because he's Goku, regardless of whatever's happened."

It's not about wanting to hold Gohan or Gotenks highly. It's about Goku being held TOO highly at the expense of Gotenks and Gohan.

At least Gohan's been drawn with his "Ultimate" look intact so far in Super (both in the opening and the episodes proper). Maybe there's some hope for his power to not be ignored in this new take on this story.
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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by DBZMerciter2005 » Sun Jul 19, 2015 1:21 am

Rocketman wrote:In the end, it's not that Goku has surpassed Gohan (although by this point I am rather tired of GOKU BESTEST NO MATTER WHAT). It's the at best lazy, at worst deceitful way they do it.
I agree with this sentiment. I understand that DB will always be about Goku (and now Vegeta) being the strongest in the universe but that gets tiresome. Other than Future Trunks and Frieza and Vegeta and Android 19 no one else really "defeated" someone without Goku helping. I'd like DBZ to grow beyond one of the most one-dimensional characters in the show.
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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by fadeddreams5 » Sun Jul 19, 2015 1:41 am

It's not even really about Goku. It's about the protagonist (in everything outside the original manga). They hate the thought of the main character, be it Goku, Vegeta, or Gohan, not being the strongest or in the top 2. They'll always be someone stronger, but that someone will eventually be surpassed or weakened.

In Gohan's case, what they've done is unfair because they're treating him as though he never attained anything, making up stupid excuses for him not to have those powers, and/or implying Goku is stronger because...he's Goku (i.e. no explanations at all).
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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by Alex9196 » Sun Jul 19, 2015 3:36 am

i would be glad if goku and vegeta surpass gohan, i guess they did in FnF ut i havent seen it so i cant say for sure.

but what always annoyed me was this:

after the defeat of cell gohan did not train to improve for 7 years, while vegeta and goku did everyday. then in the majin buu arc they finally surpassed him with effort...but no a random old kai dances around him for a day and he surpasses all of their efforts in 7 years like they were nothing.

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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by supercat » Sun Jul 19, 2015 4:31 am

Prior to the events of BoG and FnF, Gohan was the prodigy. If there was anyone who could bust out sudden reserves of unfathomable power, even unknowingly for that matter, it was the son of Kakarot. Despite being ignorant of his own strength and abilities, he was always put in a situation where he was basically deemed as the one. Between the Grand Elder and Elder Kaioshin marveling over his potential, and Goku suddenly passing the baton to him during a time of despair, Gohan was given the spotlight time and time again. Even without a day of training, he was able to overcome a villain who had both his father and Piccolo completely beat. In fact, he was so special that his father's nemesis of all people decided to take him in under his wing and groom him into a warrior.

As for Goten and Trunks, I don't even know where to place them on the prodigy scale. Based on their inherited ability to transform, I've always assumed that they had insane amounts of unexploited potential just waiting to surface. However, as a consequence of misguidance, and complete neglect of training, they suffered the unfortunate fate of being tossed into the bucket of irrelevant fodders. If they were given the same opportunities as Gohan, who's to say that they wouldn't accomplish just as much, if not more? Because the duo never had the privilege of meeting the Grand Elder or Elder Kai, we can't rule out the possibility of them having heaps of unseen power.

Gotenks is highly regarded simply because Goku hyped him up as the best thing since the slice of bread. I mean come on, immediately after leaving everyone awe-struck with his never before seen transformation, Goku proclaimed Gotenks will be the one to save the day against a their greatest challenge yet.

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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by NitroEX » Sun Jul 19, 2015 4:44 am

Rocketman wrote:
Favourite post of the year, so much win.

For a time it used to be about what was best for the story as a whole, not what's best for Goku, that clearly isn't the case anymore though.

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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by Berserker1921 » Sun Jul 19, 2015 5:03 am

Guys we can have this conversation till we all turn super Saiyan 1000000000000. But honestly this is how I see it. Toriyma was slowly setting up Gohan to be the hero. However last minute he changed his mind. This could be from issues with editors, fans, toei, or his ever changing mind. He decided dragon ball, dragon ball z, and dragon ball super will be about the story of Goku. Goku. Not Gohan or goten or trunks but Goku and a little bit Vegeta.

Goku And Vegeta have trained their whole entire lives From the moment they could walk. Breaking their bones, causing muscle issues and going thru near death experiences. Just for a little kid with anger issues to surpass them because he can get more power through his anger. How fair is that? Oh he is a prodigy. He is half human. His power level is over 10 trillion. Don't you see that's kind of messed up or a well lazy way out of situations? Yes. Gohan had potential in the Cell games and during his battle Super Buu. But he had his time in sun. Even before cell games and Buu saga. Gohan was forced to be violent. Even when he first fought cell he refused to fight him initially. Gohan is a pacifist. He would rather not fight then fight. We seen this in so many occasions. He is a good person. He isn't his father. He isn't s fighter. Is it dumb that he lost a great deal of his power? Yes. Yes it is. But does it make sense? Yeah a little. You work out your muscles every day through excercising and training. However if you stop. They start to vanish. You can argue that ki isn't like muscles and blah. But it is. Let's say Gohan mystic power up was the result of a magical super steroid. Eventually those steroids will vanish if you don't maintain them.

Is it wrong that toriyam dangled he carrot in front of us? Claiming Gohan is the one and most powerful dbz character (if you don't include Vegito)? Yes it's poor writing and crappy plot twist. However you guys are arguing that Goku and Vegeta who work none stop for months or years . Can't surpass a kid who too lazy to do the work himself and had to resort to a cheat power up?

Yes Goku and Vegeta do it to face off against frieza. But why not they actually deserve this gift. After all those years training and working. But because you were not given a magical power unlock by a horny old God. You are undeserving of these power ups? Gohan never trained during those 7 years after cell cause he didn't care. Even if they were times of peace and chi chi really had her hold on him. He just didn't like fighting. While Goku would always keep fighting.

I beleive Goku and Vegeta became stronger then Gohan before the god boost. Because they actually worked for it. While Gohan did nothing to increase his potential or power. He is undeserving of his fame now. Back in the day before cell. He deserved all of it. But now Goku and Vegeta deserve it .

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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by Super Vegetto » Sun Jul 19, 2015 7:01 am

h0kuten wrote:Why couldn't someone surpass them?
Gotenks is a fusion that isn't supposed to exist, duss having only 30min or less time,,,,asking why he couldn't be surpassed (Gohan aside) is like asking why Vegetto couldn't be surpassed and the end of Z,,,not including anything post original Z...

Btw Ultimate or Mystic Gohan are just fan made names,,,daizenshuu named him Mightiest Warrior and there is an obvious reason for that...


Now i don't think that anyone should have them above Goku or Vegeta as it was the same thing with the movies in original Z,,,logic takes another turn with new series...

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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by rereboy » Sun Jul 19, 2015 8:11 am

Because fusion is overpowered. The resulting being is literally stronger than the sum of the guys that made the fusion.

For the a character to surpass the fusion of another two characters, that character has to be much, much stronger than the sum of the power of those characters. Which isn't impossible but it's hard and, if it happens, it means that those characters became so weak in comparison that they are trivial.

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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by Captain Space » Sun Jul 19, 2015 9:42 am

I mean I basically interpreted Vegeta's "Number One/Two" speech in Super to hold the same connotations as his Number One speech in the Buu saga (back when Gohan was unambiguously strongest). Those being:

-Goku is the strongest pure saiyan at the moment.

-Goku is Number One in terms of people Vegeta cares about (himself, Kakarot, basically no-one else ever except occasionally Freeza).

-Gotenks is a fusion and not a "permanent person" as such, and Gohan did a magic ritual to get his power rather than train (and as we saw in BoG, people of a Goku/Vegeta-esque mindset aren't exactly happy with instant magic-ritual type power-ups and don't consider them "proper").

I kinda doubt Super is gonna say anything that absolutely has Goku and Vegeta as stronger than the others at their current levels (i.e. before their respective power-ups). I mean, even in BoG, when Vegeta was lasting for a few seconds against Beerus even before his power-up, it offered the whole "oh, he's just so skilled and has a great fighting sense" thing, which is a pretty weak excuse, but at least they said something which implies they're not just going "OH UH Vegeta is stronger than Gohan now shut up". I mean, they then have him surpass him with a "Vegeta is stronger than Gohan now for this reason we just came up with so shut up", but that's not at all the same thing as just pretending it was always that way.
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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:35 am

Like I said in that other thread:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:It's not us that say this, it's Goku himself.

After the RoSaT, he admitted that he didn't have any more room to get extremely stronger, and even if he had trained for another day inside the RoSaT, he still wouldn't be able to beat Cell, which is why he didn't stay inside for a full day in the first place.

After 7 years of intense training in Heaven with Kaio, he did become stronger, but he didn't become much stronger than Gohan was at the Cell Games, and his major increases in power came from SS2 & SS3. As a Super Saiyan 3, he was at around the same level as Pure Boo, but he still wasn't strong enough to kill Boo, unless he was able to fire a full-power blast. So, he wanted to have a rematch with Boo's reincarnation, and until that time would come, he did intense training in order for him to be able to beat him in a one-on-one fight.

So, 10 years later, Oob finally appears. Goku expected Oob to be a trained fighter, and he expected his power to so great that he might lose. It turned out that Oob was untrained, but his power was exactly as great as Goku expected. Logically, for Oob to have met Goku's expectations without any training, he should be about as strong as Pure Boo. And SS3 Gotenks was about x8 stronger than Pure Boo, and Ultimate Gohan was even stronger than Gotenks.

So, how can Goku be stronger than Gohan, or even Gotenks, when he isn't even sure that he can defeat someone at Pure Boo's level? Why would Goku suddenly become many times stronger when he has both said & shown that he isn't capable of such gains anymore?
It's not me that places Gohan & Gotenks so high, it's the manga itself.

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Mr. Boo was in the tournament, and he was planning to beat him if he was to fight him, so the no-SS rule wasn't there this time.
Who said Goku can't be Innocent Boo without Super Saiyan?
Goku, by saying that he may lose in an all-out fight with Oob.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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