Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

[Rocketman]

Gotenks also had reaction shots to his fusion, challenging Billy, and losing. Gohan was lumped in with the chaff like Tien, #18 and Piccolo. Is SS Gotenks stronger than Gohan now?

Well yes, since Gohan was supposed to just be SS himself, and not the Mystic state that was stronger than SS3 Gotenks.

[Truhan]

You may be missing the point of what was said a little:

He didn't say Super's writing as a whole was poor. He said that the way Super tackled this particular subject was.

Allow me to sensationalize the issue, will ya? =P I'll leave that for another topic...

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Beerus had to kick Vegeta several times in the face and punch him several times. Vegeta told Gotenks not to attack Beerus because Vegeta knew he was going to loose having lost himself.

What does this prove? Beers wasn't using his full power against Vegeta, that much is clearly obvious. Vegeta was surprised at how easily Beers took down Gotenks, not just that Gotenks was taken down.

It doesn't affect the feats of the movies. If Toriyama said 'The feats are there to show whose stronger than who' you wouldn't believe it. So please don't give me this crap about the feats correlating to his Ssj state.

Yes it does. Did you not read my post? They wrote the movie and feats with SS Gohan in mind. The only change was the color of his hair. If they had changed the script around it would've been viable. It's really no different than changing SSG Goku to Mr. Satan, but leaving the script and other animation intact.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Beerus was stronger than freaking Vegetto. Vegeta did better than Gohan because Beerus allowed him to do better. Heck, Vegeta did better than SS3 Goku did, and I'm talking about before the rage boost, yet we know for a fact from the movie that Goku was stronger.

[Draconic]

Beerus wanted to fight the Super Saiyan God and he thought, after he saw Goku wasn't the one, that Vegeta might be. It is the only reason he didn't just knock him out in one shot (like he did at the end anyway). He wanted to fight him and see if he has the power of a god. Gotenks wasn't even Super Saiyan 3 and Gohan did not try to HIT Beerus. He tried to restrain him, as you see in the movie. If, instead of grabbing him at that point, he would have tried to punch/kick him, he could have done the same amount of damage Vegeta did after his rage boost. To say that Vegeta and Goku are stronger at that point than Gohan and Gotenks is just not true and ignores what actually happens in the fight.
Vegeta and Goku were knocked out as easily as all the other fighters, because Beerus was just so much above anyone else that it looked like it made no difference. But Goku and Vegeta were also tested by the God, to see if their power could match up to him.

And before you take it to mean that Vegeta and Goku were the strongest ones because Beerus only tested them, remember that everytime he fought, it was one of the Sayians asking for a fight. The other Z-Fighters (including Gohan and Gotenks) just attacked him straight on.

[Hugo Boss]

Vegeta was surprised at how easily Beers took down Gotenks, not just that Gotenks was taken down.

I don't recal this. After fighting a little against Beerus, Vegeta realized any of them would be useful. Why would he be surprised at how easily Gotenks was defeated?

[Hitiro]

It took Goku and Vegeta 7 years to catch up to Gohan after the Cell Games. Even with them attaining SSJ2 and having trained for 7 years it was still fairly close. There is no reason not to believe that Goku and Vegeta would find it hard to catch up to Gotenks and Gohan in just 4 years given a similar power gap as the Cell Games. Somebody said in this thread that Goku said he had reached his limits and couldn't get much stronger after the first trip to the RoSaT. I don't think that is quite accurate. What Goku was saying was he had reached the limits of what that training could provide him and any more than that would just be torture instead of training. At this point in the manga I feel Goku and Vegeta had maxed out the limitations of the training they got through all the training methods they used up to this point. This is why it took them 7 years to catch up to Gohan. Their gains had become very small. The only effective way for them to get stronger now is to fight against a stronger opponent as per what Akira Toriyama stated about Goku fighting against Beerus.

So it isn't like Goku can Vegeta couldn't catch up to Gohan and Gotenks by the time of Battle of Gods. They just lack an effective training method to do it in that amount of time. Given 7+ years of their current training regimes I would have no doubt they could do it. It's not really holding Gohan or Gotenks highly. It is simply that looking at the facts displayed in front of us Goku and Vegeta stopped getting massively stronger after the Cell Games because they had no training method that could get them strong that fast any more apart from the natural "Saiyan's get stronger when they fight" method that Akira Toriyama tells us in an interview about when Goku is fighting with Beerus.

It took Goku 7 years to unlock 2 new Ssj transformations. It took Vegeta 7 to unlock 1.

Goku said going into the RoSaT would damage his body, he didn't say he 'couldn't' get stronger.

As I said previously, potential changes as often as new Ssj transformations do. They may have capped out in the space between The Cell Games and Buu Saga, but between the Buu Saga to Dragonball Super or BoG, it's quite clear they are #1 again.

Transformations ultimately mean nothing if they can't get stronger almost any other way. Both Goku and Vegeta struggled to outdo Gohan's SSJ2 strength in the same transformation as it took them 7 years to do so and from the points made in the manga both Goku and Vegeta weren't vastly above what Gohan demonstrated at the Cell Games.

Goku goes out of his way to point out that if he were to try training in the RoSaT it would be more torture than just training. That would imply that he doesn't feel like the benefit of trying to get stronger in there stacks up to what it was in the beginning. If it were just about training in general then all training would be torture from that point on. He is specifically saying that using that training method any more than he has will just be torture now because it has lost most of its benefits.

Potential does change. But that doesn't mean that they can tap into that potential with less effort. It still requires them to train harder and harder. Potential just represents the ceiling of the power they could attain during their lifetime if they train hard enough. Gohan has vastly more potential than most characters but that doesn't make it easier for him to be incredibly strong. He has to put the work in. The only benefits him and the other hybrid Saiyan's got were to start with a lot of strength in the first place. That allowed them to train less at the start because they were essentially prodigies like Freeza. But potential is something that had to be earned through massive effort even for prodigies. They just have a much easier ride than the normies. Freeza had a massive advantage of starting off massively strong unlike the other characters. Even Gohan and the kids didn't have that much power before they started training.

[supercat]

Beerus was more than likely utilizing just enough energy to effectively put each fighter out of commission based on their individual power levels. Although Android 18's power can't be sensed, he probably knew exactly how much ki would be required to take her out, based on her movements. The point is, it's difficult to use the fight between the Z-Fighters and the destructive feline as an accurate indicator of strength. In any case, it's quite possible that both Goku and Vegeta powered up substantially since their fight against Kid Buu.

[h0kuten]

Beerus was stronger than freaking Vegetto. Vegeta did better than Gohan because Beerus allowed him to do better. Heck, Vegeta did better than SS3 Goku did, and I'm talking about before the rage boost, yet we know for a fact from the movie that Goku was stronger.

Incorrect.

Beerus used so much power against Goku that Goku couldn't even trace his movements and was moving in slow motion. This didn't happen when Vegeta fought Beerus.

Beerus lowered his power to make 'Vegeta look better?', Lol, that's funny.

Also, promotional material (such as Gohan being SS) doesn't affect the finished piece of the movie, which has Gohan in his Ultimate form.

Goku struggled for 7 years to unlock Ssj2 and Ssj3.
Vegeta struggled to unlock Ssj2.

It was Gohan`s `full potential`(at the time of the Cell Games) brought out. So obviously it`s a new height of power that would be extremely difficult for anyone to achieve, not necessary surpass Gohan, which they both quite clearly did in their Ssj2 forms.

Goku ( All Power Absorbed ) > Super Vegetto >=< Beerus (Suppressed) >= Raging Vegeta Ssj2 > Goku SSj3 > Buuhan > Buutenks > Vegeta Ssj2 > Ultimate Gohan

Is the implication of Battle of Gods.

[Draconic]

Beerus was stronger than freaking Vegetto. Vegeta did better than Gohan because Beerus allowed him to do better. Heck, Vegeta did better than SS3 Goku did, and I'm talking about before the rage boost, yet we know for a fact from the movie that Goku was stronger.

Incorrect.

Beerus used so much power against Goku that Goku couldn't even trace his movements and was moving in slow motion. This didn't happen when Vegeta fought Beerus.

Beerus lowered his power to make 'Vegeta look better?', Lol, that's funny.

So it was either Vegeta was stronger than Goku, or Beerus supressed his energy. There are not other options and we KNOW that Goku was stronger, before the rage boost. Vegeta got beat up as bad as all the others, his rage boost did nothing to Beerus and he was knocked out just like everyone else, with one tap.
Gohan didn't get to do anything (mostly because he tried to contain the conflict, not actually fight), so we don't know what he could have done to Beerus and Gotenks was not even knocked out, just left to cry. Nothing points to Goku and Vegeta being stronger, but it was written with the two of them as protagonists, so they got more screen time.

[Lord Beerus]

Goku ( All Power Absorbed ) > Super Vegetto >=< Beerus (Suppressed) >= Raging Vegeta Ssj2 > Goku SSj3 > Buuhan > Buutenks > Vegeta Ssj2 > Ultimate Gohan

Is the implication of Battle of Gods.

Huh? At no stage was Goku ever stronger than Beerus. And Goku already stated that he would have to fuse with Vegeta to put up fight against Beerus, but even then he was very doubtful that even fusion would be enough to take down Beerus. So that automatically puts Beerus above Vegetto.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Beerus was stronger than freaking Vegetto. Vegeta did better than Gohan because Beerus allowed him to do better. Heck, Vegeta did better than SS3 Goku did, and I'm talking about before the rage boost, yet we know for a fact from the movie that Goku was stronger.

Incorrect.

Beerus used so much power against Goku that Goku couldn't even trace his movements and was moving in slow motion. This didn't happen when Vegeta fought Beerus.

Beerus lowered his power to make 'Vegeta look better?', Lol, that's funny.

Also, promotional material (such as Gohan being SS) doesn't affect the finished piece of the movie, which has Gohan in his Ultimate form.

Goku struggled for 7 years to unlock Ssj2 and Ssj3.
Vegeta struggled to unlock Ssj2.

It was Gohan`s `full potential`(at the time of the Cell Games) brought out. So obviously it`s a new height of power that would be extremely difficult for anyone to achieve, not necessary surpass Gohan, which they both quite clearly did in their Ssj2 forms.

Goku ( All Power Absorbed ) > Super Vegetto >=< Beerus (Suppressed) >= Raging Vegeta Ssj2 > Goku SSj3 > Buuhan > Buutenks > Vegeta Ssj2 > Ultimate Gohan

Is the implication of Battle of Gods.

What BoG implies is Beerus >> everyone. The only comparison we have for the heroes is that Vegeta was weaker than SS3 Goku, and he surpassed him with his rage boost. There is nothing that compares Goku with Gohan or Gotenks.

[Draconic]

What BoG implies is Beerus >> everyone. The only comparison we have for the heroes is that Vegeta was weaker than SS3 Goku, and he surpassed him with his rage boost. There is nothing that compares Goku with Gohan or Gotenks.

Very simple and well put. Nice

[h0kuten]

Goku ( All Power Absorbed ) > Super Vegetto >=< Beerus (Suppressed) >= Raging Vegeta Ssj2 > Goku SSj3 > Buuhan > Buutenks > Vegeta Ssj2 > Ultimate Gohan

Is the implication of Battle of Gods.

Huh? At no stage was Goku ever stronger than Beerus. And Goku already stated that he would have to fuse with Vegeta to put up fight against Beerus, but even then he was very doubtful that even fusion would be enough to take down Beerus. So that automatically puts Beerus above Vegetto.

I'm not talking about a fully powered Beerus, hence the suppressed portion. Gohan says Goku has become the strongest in the Universe after he absorbs everybody's power, and nobody contradicts him. Statements are true until contradicted.

Even if you argue that Gohan can't sense Beerus' chi, I can always argue (as others have) that Gohan based his estimation on the movements of Beerus'.

My chain still stands.

Beerus was stronger than freaking Vegetto. Vegeta did better than Gohan because Beerus allowed him to do better. Heck, Vegeta did better than SS3 Goku did, and I'm talking about before the rage boost, yet we know for a fact from the movie that Goku was stronger.

Incorrect.

Beerus used so much power against Goku that Goku couldn't even trace his movements and was moving in slow motion. This didn't happen when Vegeta fought Beerus.

Beerus lowered his power to make 'Vegeta look better?', Lol, that's funny.

So it was either Vegeta was stronger than Goku, or Beerus supressed his energy. There are not other options and we KNOW that Goku was stronger, before the rage boost. Vegeta got beat up as bad as all the others, his rage boost did nothing to Beerus and he was knocked out just like everyone else, with one tap.
Gohan didn't get to do anything (mostly because he tried to contain the conflict, not actually fight), so we don't know what he could have done to Beerus and Gotenks was not even knocked out, just left to cry. Nothing points to Goku and Vegeta being stronger, but it was written with the two of them as protagonists, so they got more screen time.

We currently have:

a) Vegeta being shocked that Goku lost at Super Saiyan 3. If anybody was stronger than him there would be no need to be worried.
b) Gohan being extremely happy when Goku shows up on the battlefield, probably wrongly believing that Goku would put Beerus in place.
c) Vegeta fairing a lot better than either Gotenks or Gohan. Being able to tank a few punches and several kicks to the face. When a lack of statements are there, look to the next best thing, feats.
d) Beerus comments on Vegeta and not Gohan, despite fighting Vegeta after he fought Gohan.
e) Beerus is impressed with Goku, not the others.
f) Goku states in the opening of Battle of Gods that Beerus being the strongest in the Universe is what concerns him, because he believes himself to be.

So summarily:

Goku Ssj3 > Vegeta Ssj2 >=< Goku Ssj2 > Ultimate Gohan > Gotenks Ssj

[Kaboom]

Beerus lowered his power to make 'Vegeta look better?', Lol, that's funny.

This type of response, along with your general "my preferred outlook is the correct one, period" attitude displayed in this thread, are not appreciated, wanted, or welcome here. Please show more grace and respect when conversing with your peers if you wish to remain part of this community.

[Rocketman]

What BoG implies is Beerus >> everyone. The only comparison we have for the heroes is that Vegeta was weaker than SS3 Goku, and he surpassed him with his rage boost. There is nothing that compares Goku with Gohan or Gotenks.

True, but the same goes for Movie 13. "Power doesn't matter, we're all outmatched", but you see who gets chumped and who gets to fight hand-to-hand.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Vegeta didn't just learn that Goku lost to Beerus, he was warned by Kaio that no one must ever touch him on Earth, and he used SS3 Goku losing from only 2 hits as evidence for Beerus' might. That's why Vegeta got crazy after hearing this, Kaio implied that Beerus is stronger than everyone on Earth, and Vegeta believed him after hearing about Goku.

Gohan & Gotenks didn't actually have a fight with Beerus, Beerus just KOed them because they annoyed him. Goku & Vegeta had actual fights, because they actually challenged him without annoying him, and Beerus wanted to see how strong they were. He didn't care about Gohan & Gotenks, and he didn't see any skills from them, which is why only Goku & Vegeta left an impression to him.

Gohan, and everyone, is happy that Goku arrives because everyone always believes that Goku will find a way. Bulma built a time-machine solely for that reason.

Goku states in the opening of Battle of Gods that Beerus being the strongest in the Universe is what concerns him, because he believes himself to be.

What's the exact line?

[h0kuten]

Vegeta didn't just learn that Goku lost to Beerus, he was warned by Kaio that no one must ever touch him on Earth, and he used SS3 Goku losing from only 2 hits as evidence for Beerus' might. That's why Vegeta got crazy after hearing this, Kaio implied that Beerus is stronger than everyone on Earth, and Vegeta believed him after hearing about Goku.

Gohan & Gotenks didn't actually have a fight with Beerus, Beerus just KOed them because they annoyed him. Goku & Vegeta had actual fights, because they actually challenged him without annoying him, and Beerus wanted to see how strong they were. He didn't care about Gohan & Gotenks, and he didn't see any skills from them, which is why only Goku & Vegeta left an impression to him.

Gohan, and everyone, is happy that Goku arrives because everyone always believes that Goku will find a way. Bulma built a time-machine solely for that reason.

Goku states in the opening of Battle of Gods that Beerus being the strongest in the Universe is what concerns him, because he believes himself to be.

What's the exact line?

Beerus wanting to see how strong they were is just fan speculation as far as I'm concerned, mainly because there is absolutely nothing to back it up. Beerus' entire mission during the movie was to look for the Super Saiyan God, not test out mortals who were to weak to fight him.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Beerus wanting to see how strong they were is just fan speculation as far as I'm concerned, mainly because there is absolutely nothing to back it up. Beerus' entire mission during the movie was to look for the Super Saiyan God, not test out mortals who were to weak to fight him.

You are right here, my mistake. But still, both Goku & Vegeta challenged Beerus into a fight, and Beerus fought them instead of KOing them instantly, which was something he was easily capable of.

Also, what exactly does Goku say when you said that he says that he believes himself to be the strongest in the universe?

[Draconic]

Vegeta didn't just learn that Goku lost to Beerus, he was warned by Kaio that no one must ever touch him on Earth, and he used SS3 Goku losing from only 2 hits as evidence for Beerus' might. That's why Vegeta got crazy after hearing this, Kaio implied that Beerus is stronger than everyone on Earth, and Vegeta believed him after hearing about Goku.

Gohan & Gotenks didn't actually have a fight with Beerus, Beerus just KOed them because they annoyed him. Goku & Vegeta had actual fights, because they actually challenged him without annoying him, and Beerus wanted to see how strong they were. He didn't care about Gohan & Gotenks, and he didn't see any skills from them, which is why only Goku & Vegeta left an impression to him.

Gohan, and everyone, is happy that Goku arrives because everyone always believes that Goku will find a way. Bulma built a time-machine solely for that reason.

Goku states in the opening of Battle of Gods that Beerus being the strongest in the Universe is what concerns him, because he believes himself to be.

What's the exact line?

Beerus wanting to see how strong they were is just fan speculation as far as I'm concerned, mainly because there is absolutely nothing to back it up. Beerus' entire mission during the movie was to look for the Super Saiyan God, not test out mortals who were to weak to fight him.

After fighting Vegeta, Beerus says something along the limes of "seems you are not the Super Saiyan God either". Which means during their fight he was waiting for Vegeta's full power. Speculation or not, it's not unfounded.
And his purpose was to fight the SSJG, not to just look for him.
Plus, after everything ended, Beerus said that Goku and Vegeta have potențial to surpass him. That doesn't mean that they are the strongest, but the most likely to use the god power to it's full capabilities. They are the best fighters after all, even if they weren't the strongest. At least among the Sayians.