Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

[h0kuten]

Beerus wanting to see how strong they were is just fan speculation as far as I'm concerned, mainly because there is absolutely nothing to back it up. Beerus' entire mission during the movie was to look for the Super Saiyan God, not test out mortals who were to weak to fight him.

You are right here, my mistake. But still, both Goku & Vegeta challenged Beerus into a fight, and Beerus fought them instead of KOing them instantly, which was something he was easily capable of.

Also, what exactly does Goku say when you said that he says that he believes himself to be the strongest in the universe?

It's in the Japanese dub where King Kai is introducing Goku to Beerus.

'Him being the strongest in the universe is what concerns me'

Beerus commented on Vegeta's potential, Vegeta hadn't become a god yet, so it's a reference to his potential not him becoming a Super Saiyan God. He wouldn't quote something that doesn't exist.

Beerus was looking to knock Vegeta out, it was after Vegeta became enraged did Beerus' think Vegeta may have become the SSJG not before.

Regardless, all of the points I made previously show, quite clearly, Goku & Vegeta are intended as the strongest by BoG. Dragonball Super is also agreeing with this perspective, there is really nothing in either movie or show that says or implies the opposite through dialogue or feats.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

It's in the Japanese dub where King Kai is introducing Goku to Beerus.

'Him being the strongest in the universe is what concerns me'

How does this imply that Goku is the strongest? He is just talking about Beerus.

Beerus commented on Vegeta's potential, Vegeta hadn't become a god yet, so it's a reference to his potential not him becoming a Super Saiyan God. He wouldn't quote something that doesn't exist.

Why not? Vegeta can easily become a God (which he did), and Beerus knows it. He saw Vegeta's fighting skills, and he knows what kind of power SSGod gives.

Beerus was looking to knock Vegeta out, it was after Vegeta became enraged did Beerus' think Vegeta may have become the SSJG not before.

If he wanted to knock him out like the others, why didn't he do it?

Regardless, all of the points I made previously show, quite clearly, Goku & Vegeta are intended as the strongest by BoG.

No, it's not clear. The only reason Goku looks like he is the strongest is because he is the main protagonist, so to those who don't know much about the series, it will appear that he is the strongest.

Dragonball Super is also agreeing with this perspective,

Not necesarily, Vegeta's lines are open to interpretation. He could have been talking about just him & Goku, like it happened in Boo arc.

there is really nothing in either movie or show that says or implies the opposite through dialogue or feats.

It goes both ways, actually. Neither BoG, nor Super (so far) have compared Goku & Vegeta with Gohan & Gotenks in any way. We only had comparisons about Goku & Vegeta, and we saw that Beerus was far stronger than everyone.

We have nothing to compare them with in BoG, but what we do have is the manga. The manga shows that there is a huge gap between SS2 Vegeta & SS3 Goku, and an even greater gap between SS3 Goku & SS3 Gotenks, with U. Gohan being even stronger than SS3 Gotenks. The manga also shows us that Goku isn't capable of making huge gains anymore, and he would need not huge, but monstrous gains in order to surpass his kids. And since base Goku is still below Freeza in BoG, I'm really not seeing him being stronger than at least Gotenks.

[Truhan]

Not necesarily, Vegeta's lines are open to interpretation. He could have been talking about just him & Goku, like it happened in Boo arc.

Actually, when Vegeta said that Goku was the number one during his fight with Kid Buu, Gohan was still dead. Gohan may have never powered up again to fight, so Vegeta's new line in DB Super didn't need to include him. Gotenks didn't happen again, so there's no straight forward comparison as of now (considering that even BoG can be changed). All of this to say that we're taking a few lines straight from the author, who has decided to consider the anime in what fans believe is a manga follow up, for granted. I mean... It's a studio production, who has placed Goku above anyone else before (DBZ Movie 13, DBGT and DB Super), which may have influenced the "official" guides we use for discussion, when those are also extra material the author had to concede to, so far as to not create confusion. The truth is in the manga, and the manga alone, and it ended two decades ago.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Actually, when Vegeta said that Goku was the number one during his fight with Kid Buu, Gohan was still dead.

Vegeta was talking about his rivalry with Goku in his #1 speech, he wasn't talking about how each fighter in the universe compares to the other. Up until that point, Vegeta was acting as if he should be the #1 warrior, because he was the super-elite Saiya Prince, and Goku shouldn't be above him because his is a low-class scum, and he couldn't understand why Goku kept surpassing him. But during the fight with Majin Boo, he finally realized what made Goku so special, and accepted him to be the true #1 between them. In Super, he repeats that Goku is #1 like he did in the manga.

[Draconic]

Regardless, all of the points I made previously show, quite clearly, Goku & Vegeta are intended as the strongest by BoG. Dragonball Super is also agreeing with this perspective, there is really nothing in either movie or show that says or implies the opposite through dialogue or feats.

There isn't anything proving if that is true, or otherwise. That's why we are having a discussion. But what we know is true, is that Gohan and Gotenks were stronger the last time we saw them and in neither the movie nor the show have we seen something to indicate a downgrade to their power, or an upgrade to the one of Goku and Vegeta. The script for BoG was written with the two as protagonists, so they got more screen time. And since Beerus was stronger than anybody in that movie, the gap between the Z-Fighters is unmeasurable. Unless you think Tien is as strong as Piccolo too.
The fact is, Beerus was so strong that everybody was made to look like chumps. There is no way to countify their individual strength.

[Truhan]

Vegeta was talking about his rivalry with Goku in his #1 speech, he wasn't talking about how each fighter in the universe compares to the other. Up until that point, Vegeta was acting as if he should be the #1 warrior, because he was the super-elite Saiya Prince, and Goku shouldn't be above him because his is a low-class scum, and he couldn't understand why Goku kept surpassing him. But during the fight with Majin Boo, he finally realized what made Goku so special, and accepted him to be the true #1 between them. In Super, he repeats that Goku is #1 like he did in the manga.

Yeah, but that statement was soon followed by "... and yet he keeps training" (or something along those lines). It's clear that Vegeta was talking about power, and that he was ranking Goku above anyone else. It's tasteless, because Akira Toriyama could have ended Dragon Ball without us knowing if Goku was the strongest or just the Number One for having defeated the last threat the universe had seen. Kinda like going to a tournament: since Gohan didn't participate in the battle against Kid Buu, and because he didn't bother disputing a title with Goku, the latter became the undisputed Number One in the universe. That's how I see it, quite frankly, and it's useless to go any further, because DB Super can contradict things again.

[h0kuten]

Regardless, all of the points I made previously show, quite clearly, Goku & Vegeta are intended as the strongest by BoG. Dragonball Super is also agreeing with this perspective, there is really nothing in either movie or show that says or implies the opposite through dialogue or feats.
There isn't anything proving if that is true, or otherwise. That's why we are having a discussion. But what we know is true, is that Gohan and Gotenks were stronger the last time we saw them and in neither the movie nor the show have we seen something to indicate a downgrade to their power, or an upgrade to the one of Goku and Vegeta. The script for BoG was written with the two as protagonists, so they got more screen time. And since Beerus was stronger than anybody in that movie, the gap between the Z-Fighters is unmeasurable. Unless you think Tenshinhan is as strong as Piccolo too.
The fact is, Beerus was so strong that everybody was made to look like chumps. There is no way to countify their individual strength.
There is a way:

Tienshinhan / Tossed aside with chop-sticks.
Android 18 / Cross to neck.
Piccolo / Pressure point with chop-sticks.
Good Buu / A push, finger flick and head-butt.
Gotenks Ssj / Spanked about a dozen times.
Ultimate Gohan / Heavy kick to the stomach and head-butt.
Vegeta Ssj2 / Several kicks to the face as well as several punches.

So really, if you arrange the feats is level of power they follow chronological order of what it would take to actually defeat each opponent.

Androids don't have power levels so that debunks any argument that says Beerus was adjusting his power to each other, the feats are there to show us who is stronger than who, it's really as simple as that.

It's in the Japanese dub where King Kai is introducing Goku to Beerus.

'Him being the strongest in the universe is what concerns me'

How does this imply that Goku is the strongest? He is just talking about Beerus.

If Goku wasn't the strongest on Earth he would automatically seek to surpass whoever that was. He makes no distinction that anybody is the strongest in the Universe but him, until King Kai tells him Beerus is even stronger.

Beerus commented on Vegeta's potential, Vegeta hadn't become a god yet, so it's a reference to his potential not him becoming a Super Saiyan God. He wouldn't quote something that doesn't exist.
Why not? Vegeta can easily become a God (which he did), and Beerus knows it. He saw Vegeta's fighting skills, and he knows what kind of power SSGod gives.

Because it's quoting something that doesn't exist. Also in Dragonball, skills don't compensate for anything, you need to be stronger to fair better than anyone prior, so basically 'Vegeta > All' except Goku Ssj3.

Beerus was looking to knock Vegeta out, it was after Vegeta became enraged did Beerus' think Vegeta may have become the SSJG not before.
If he wanted to knock him out like the others, why didn't he do it?

He did do it, with a mere point of his finger. However, Vegeta proved to be stronger than the others and was able to resist him momentarily.

Regardless, all of the points I made previously show, quite clearly, Goku & Vegeta are intended as the strongest by BoG.
No, it's not clear. The only reason Goku looks like he is the strongest is because he is the main protagonist, so to those who don't know much about the series, it will appear that he is the strongest.

Again, it's blatantly stated and implied from Battle of Gods, Yo Son Goku! & Fukkatsu no F that Goku is now intended to be the strongest without the SSJG ritual; everything supports it but not one single feat, statement or implication supports the contrary; if there is, please bring it, with the exclusion of the manga.

[Rocketman]

Goku or Vegeta ~training~ enough to overcome the enormous Fusion Dance boost is also bullshit.

Which is a pretty hilarious side effect of the Kid Buu filler wanking of Goku.

Who's stronger:

Base Goku or base Gotenks? Gotenks
SS Goku or SS Gotenks? Gotenks
SS3 Goku or SS3 Gotenks? GOKUUUU GOKUUU IS STRONGESSSTTTTT

[h0kuten]

Feats over-ride implications. Feats blatantly show:

Vegeta Ssj2 > Ultimate Gohan > Gotenks

Or:

Goku Ssj3: 40
Vegeta Ssj2: 10
Goku Ssj2: 10
Ultimate Gohan: 9
Gotenks Ssj3: 6

[Rocketman]

No, feats show: SS Gotenks > SS Vegeta > SS Gohan. Which is obvious.

That they recolored Gohan's hair after fans complained doesn't rejigger the structure.



Also, that would make Goku and Vegeta stronger in base than they were in SS2 in the Buu arc.

[h0kuten]

No, feats show: SS Gotenks > SS Vegeta > SS Gohan. Which is obvious.

That they recolored Gohan's hair after fans complained doesn't rejigger the structure.

Vegeta: Took several kicks to the face and several punches to the face.
Ultimate Gohan: Took a heavy kick to the stomach.
Gotenks: Was spanked out of Ssj and back into Base. It also ruptured his fusion.

Vegeta Ssj2 > Ultimate Gohan > Gotenks Ssj POST-ROST

[Rocketman]

SS Vegeta: Took several kicks to the face and several punches to the face.
SS Gohan: Took a heavy kick to the stomach.

SS Gohan is weaker than SS Vegeta, I agree.

I made a chart:

[h0kuten]

SS Vegeta: Took several kicks to the face and several punches to the face.
SS Gohan: Took a heavy kick to the stomach.

SS Gohan is weaker than SS Vegeta, I agree.

Promotional material is a work in progress and is not the finalized piece. Besides if someone whose working on the movie says it was Ultimate Gohan than that automatically over-rides any fan speculation.

That chart is only accurate up until the Buu Saga, after-wards it falls apart.

Besides even according to you're chart, if Vegeta improved as much as Piccolo did in the Androids Saga, he would still be 50% stronger than Ultimate Gohan, completely within the boundaries of reason.

[Kaboom]

SS Gohan is weaker than SS Vegeta, I agree.

Yeah, the whole Beerus vs Gohan/Vegeta/Gotenks exchange is a lot more coherent when you realize it wasn't originally written or animated for Ultimate Gohan. It was written and animated for Super Saiyan Gohan, then his hair and aura were recolored at the last minute. Doesn't make much sense to judge the "feats" in that so-called fight when up until the last minute it featured a very different and much weaker version of one of the characters.

[Truhan]

Wait a second! Did Gohan just turn weaker than Vegeta with what seemed to be an overall increase in ability with the Z-Sword, and after getting his potential unleashed? SSJ2 > Mystic Gohan seems to be true with Movie 13, but again, that is the studio painting their intent all over, with Akira Toriyama giving (as in tainting) his name.

[Rocketman]

Wait a second! Did Gohan just turn weaker than Vegeta with what seemed to be an overall increase in ability with the Z-Sword

The what now? Maybe you meant to praise Godku? It's ok, citizen, none of us are perfect (except Godku, peace be upon him).

[Kaboom]

Wait a second! Did Gohan just turn weaker than Vegeta with what seemed to be an overall increase in ability with the Z-Sword, and after getting his potential unleashed? SSJ2 > Mystic Gohan seems to be true with Movie 13, but again, that is the studio painting their intent all over, with Akira Toriyama giving (as in tainting) his name.

I think Gohan's increases with the Z-Sword tend to be really over-estimated. The Z-Sword's true amazing strength-improving secret was the Old Kaioshin sealed inside it. The sword itself wasn't anything mystical or special in the end, it was just heavy. So basically Gohan did a day or so's worth of weight training that was said to increase his "arm strength," specifically. Whoopty-doo!

The thing with Ultimate Gohan in Battle of Gods is that he wasn't originally written, animated, or intended to be Ultimate. All the pre-release footage and screencaps and stuff we saw showed him as a Super Saiyan, and even the covers of the home releases still do. Ultimate Gohan being weaker than SS Gotenks and SS/2 Vegeta doesn't make a lick of sense, but regular ol' Super Saiyan (or even maybe SS2) Gohan being weaker than them makes plenty of sense. Which is what the movie actually showed (kinda) until the last minute. So take away Ultimate from Gohan and SS3 from Gotenks, and who's the strongest? Why, it's (Super Saiyan 3) Goku, whom everyone else in the cast was excited to see show up! Ta-da.

Movie 13 at least made an effort to tone down the Goku favoritism. Very-much-Ultimate Gohan and SS3 Gotenks both had their big moments against Hirudegarn, and there was a line in there of something like, "we can't beat him no matter how much power we have." But obviously the role of exploiting Rudy's weakness and landing the final blow was given to Goku.

[Rocketman]

Gohan seeing through Hildy's phasing was a neat credit too. Like when Vegeta figures out Janemba's teleporting is a weakness in 12.

[h0kuten]

SS Gohan is weaker than SS Vegeta, I agree.

Yeah, the whole Beerus vs Gohan/Vegeta/Gotenks exchange is a lot more coherent when you realize it wasn't originally written or animated for Ultimate Gohan. It was written and animated for Super Saiyan Gohan, then his hair and aura were recolored at the last minute. Doesn't make much sense to judge the "feats" in that so-called fight when up until the last minute it featured an very different and much weaker version of one of the characters.

Regardless of what makes sense to a fan doesn't mean that was the final intention. I could play along with the 'last minute recolour' argument, but it falls apart when what was originally intended was fine for what they were trying to portray. Meaning that the fight wouldn't of happened any different had they decided to scrap and re-do the entire thing. I can assure you they wouldn't go out of their way to nit-pick every fight scene to properly determine how much better fighter a) should do than fighter b), the original and final intention is that Vegeta was and is portrayed stronger than Ultimate Gohan.

This is typically how I view the Majin Buu Saga & BoG (for Rocketman):

Majin Buu

Goku
~Ssj3 40

Vegeta
~Ssj2 10

Fat Buu
~FP 15

Gotenks Pre-ROST
~Base 3.6
~Ssj 18

Gotenks Post-ROST
~Base 27
~Ssj 135
~Ssj2 270
~Ssj3 1,080

Ultimate Gohan
~Full Power 1,620

BoG

Goku
~Ssj2 1,800
~Ssj3 7,200

Vegeta
~Ssj2 1,800
~Enraged 9,000

Super Vegetto (Buu): 10,000
Beerus (vs Z-Fighters): 10,000
Goku (All Power Absorbed): 11,000-12,000

Even by this scaling, Vegeta only has to increase by roughly half as much as Piccolo did for the Androids Arc in order to be where I have him, which is completely reasonable.

[Rocketman]

Ok, so why didn't Vegeta increase that much while training to his limits before the Buu arc?