Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by h0kuten » Sun Jul 26, 2015 1:35 am

Piccolo proved he could not accurately sense Chi by being able to place Majin Vegeta Ssj2, when Vegeta Ssj2 was already 100% positive he was surpassed.
Incorrect. As Dragonball Super has shown there are ways for a character to continue training to their utmost limits. After the fight with Kid Buu Goku says he or Vegeta will be able to defeat Kid Buu individually with an unspecified amount of training. So basically it infers characters can make huge improvements without using the RoSaT.

He said everything about Buu improved not that he was more powerful in regards to Chi. Piccolo speaks in specifics, by stating his body became better for fighting and he had the ability to sense Chi. No mention is made regarding an increase of Chi. We are dealing with a series where strength related statements after the fact, are always stated. Interestingly, not in this particular scenario.

Herms corrected that statement and wasn’t sure if it was a reference to the kids fused power or the kids individually.

Fat Buu wasn’t able to roll Vegeta or tank any of his attacks, meaning there should only be a small gap in power not this huge, blown out of proportion you’re referring too.

They were still getting used to Fat Buu and Goku wasn’t certain he could defeat Fat Buu until Kid Buu appeared. He had no idea that what Goku fought as a Super Saiyan 3 was Fat Buu’s full power. Meaning Fat Buu was over-estimated by Goku (during Buu’s initial appearance) to begin with.

If they wiped out Buu completely it may potentially have happened. Answer this, how would Buu continue to fight if all his body pieces were blasted away completely with no trace left? And than answer this, was Majin Buu blown into a million pieces on 2 separate occasions? Also, it doesn’t have to mean either fighter is close to Buu in power, Vegeta or Gotenks, it just means their signature attacks are what is.
Mr.Satan dodged a few punches and was able to resist Ssj3 tier power. He must be Ssj3 tier according to feats.

Piccolo tells them to train and train after seeing the finished product. Quite clearly, Gotenks still needs training for his fight with Fat Buu.

I proved it by Goku training in Dragonball Super, Vegeta being able to defeat Kid Buu at Ssj2 with nothing more than Earth training, and an Akira Toriyama interview saying Goku & Vegeta always train and Battle of Gods, Dragonball Super & EOZ all show them to be training constantly.

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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by singsing » Sun Jul 26, 2015 2:41 am

Piccolo proved he could not accurately sense Chi by being able to place Majin Vegeta Ssj2, when Vegeta Ssj2 was already 100% positive he was surpassed.
What?
He said everything about Buu improved not that he was more powerful in regards to Chi. Piccolo speaks in specifics, by stating his body became better for fighting and he had the ability to sense Chi. No mention is made regarding an increase of Chi. We are dealing with a series where strength related statements after the fact, are always stated. Interestingly, not in this particular scenario.
How does "everything" not cover ki? Unless ki isn't something, I would assume "everything" covers "everything" until otherwise noted.
Fat Buu wasn’t able to roll Vegeta or tank any of his attacks, meaning there should only be a small gap in power not this huge, blown out of proportion you’re referring too.
I dunno about you, but the manga I read showed Vegeta literally getting rolled. Like, he got rolled up in bubblegum and destroyed by Fat Buu when he got angry and tried.
They were still getting used to Fat Buu and Goku wasn’t certain he could defeat Fat Buu until Kid Buu appeared. He had no idea that what Goku fought as a Super Saiyan 3 was Fat Buu’s full power. Meaning Fat Buu was over-estimated by Goku (during Buu’s initial appearance) to begin with.
Prove that was Fat Buu's full power. He has noticeable power jumps throughout his entire existence.
If they wiped out Buu completely it may potentially have happened. Answer this, how would Buu continue to fight if all his body pieces were blasted away completely with no trace left? And than answer this, was Majin Buu blown into a million pieces on 2 separate occasions? Also, it doesn’t have to mean either fighter is close to Buu in power, Vegeta or Gotenks, it just means their signature attacks are what is.
What may have happened. What are you even talking about actually?
I proved it by Goku training in Dragonball Super, Vegeta being able to defeat Kid Buu at Ssj2 with nothing more than Earth training, and an Akira Toriyama interview saying Goku & Vegeta always train and Battle of Gods, Dragonball Super & EOZ all show them to be training constantly.
When did Vegeta beat Kid Buu again? We know they always train, we also know their training plateaus.

I don't understand how you can get on people's case for "fan speculation" when that's literally your arguments' entire premise.

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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by Darkprince410 » Sun Jul 26, 2015 3:29 am

He said everything about Buu improved not that he was more powerful in regards to Chi. Piccolo speaks in specifics, by stating his body became better for fighting and he had the ability to sense Chi. No mention is made regarding an increase of Chi. We are dealing with a series where strength related statements after the fact, are always stated. Interestingly, not in this particular scenario.
Everything = everything. If Buu's ki didn't also become greater from where it was before, then not everything about him would have improved. It wouldn't make any sense for him to say that everything about him became greater if his ki didn't change at all.
Fat Buu wasn’t able to roll Vegeta or tank any of his attacks, meaning there should only be a small gap in power not this huge, blown out of proportion you’re referring too.
The moment he let his anger (and thus his battle power) spike, Buu was completely throttling Vegeta.
They were still getting used to Fat Buu and Goku wasn’t certain he could defeat Fat Buu until Kid Buu appeared. He had no idea that what Goku fought as a Super Saiyan 3 was Fat Buu’s full power. Meaning Fat Buu was over-estimated by Goku (during Buu’s initial appearance) to begin with.
Literally nothing is mentioned or stated that Fat Buu was at full power when he fought Goku. Likewise, since we're shown that his power increases through anger, his rather happy mood during his fight with Goku would lend to the notion that he wasn't at full strength when he fought Goku.
Piccolo tells them to train and train after seeing the finished product. Quite clearly, Gotenks still needs training for his fight with Fat Buu.
He only said that after Gotenks got throttled in his base form, and only with a day between then and the fight with Buu. You certainly don't see him say any such thing after the boys fused while Super Saiya-jin, indicating that their power as Ssj Gotenks was sufficient in his mind. In fact, his only concern he had about them fighting Buu as Ssj Gotenks was that they had played around so much they had almost no time left in their fusion. Nothing about not being strong enough.

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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Sun Jul 26, 2015 3:47 am

h0kuten wrote:Piccolo proved he could not accurately sense Chi by being able to place Majin Vegeta Ssj2, when Vegeta Ssj2 was already 100% positive he was surpassed.
Incorrect. As Dragonball Super has shown there are ways for a character to continue training to their utmost limits. After the fight with Kid Buu Goku says he or Vegeta will be able to defeat Kid Buu individually with an unspecified amount of training. So basically it infers characters can make huge improvements without using the RoSaT.
You can't use that one instance to show he can't accurately measure Chi when the entire cast are shown to do that on occasion. No, it isn't incorrect. They weren't going to gain that much power in a day when they clearly weren't training the entire day. They would've been doing basic training on the lookout and there's no reason to assume that they wouldn't. Yeah, they'd be able to defeat Boo after they train hard enough. It certainly wasn't going to happen in a day, which is what my entire point is.
He said everything about Buu improved not that he was more powerful in regards to Chi. Piccolo speaks in specifics, by stating his body became better for fighting and he had the ability to sense Chi. No mention is made regarding an increase of Chi. We are dealing with a series where strength related statements after the fact, are always stated. Interestingly, not in this particular scenario.
If everything is greater than before, it's also including power. Goku sensed the transformation all the way from the Kaioshin world, so there was a power-up.
Herms corrected that statement and wasn’t sure if it was a reference to the kids fused power or the kids individually.
So it comes down to interpretation.
Fat Buu wasn’t able to roll Vegeta or tank any of his attacks, meaning there should only be a small gap in power not this huge, blown out of proportion you’re referring too.
He can bind him and beat the crap outta him, though. Hardly a small difference in power. To say there's not much of a power advantage in Boo's favor is to say Majin Vegeta could potentially put up a fight against Super Saiyan 3 Goku. Not happening.
They were still getting used to Fat Buu and Goku wasn’t certain he could defeat Fat Buu until Kid Buu appeared. He had no idea that what Goku fought as a Super Saiyan 3 was Fat Buu’s full power. Meaning Fat Buu was over-estimated by Goku (during Buu’s initial appearance) to begin with.
Goku was certain he could've beaten Fat Boo way back when he fought him. There was no change between Fat Boo from that point. He was simply revealing his reasons for giving the younger guys a chance.
If they wiped out Buu completely it may potentially have happened. Answer this, how would Buu continue to fight if all his body pieces were blasted away completely with no trace left? And than answer this, was Majin Buu blown into a million pieces on 2 separate occasions? Also, it doesn’t have to mean either fighter is close to Buu in power, Vegeta or Gotenks, it just means their signature attacks are what is.
Thing is, I'm not really focused on their attacks. My point is being able to blow Boo into pieces means nothing. Vegeta's Final Explosion doesn't offset the ass whooping he received from Fat Boo. The same applies to Gotenks.
Mr.Satan dodged a few punches and was able to resist Ssj3 tier power. He must be Ssj3 tier according to feats.
That never happened.
Piccolo tells them to train and train after seeing the finished product. Quite clearly, Gotenks still needs training for his fight with Fat Buu.
Which was before he saw Super Saiyan Gotenks.
I proved it by Goku training in Dragonball Super, Vegeta being able to defeat Kid Buu at Ssj2 with nothing more than Earth training, and an Akira Toriyama interview saying Goku & Vegeta always train and Battle of Gods, Dragonball Super & EOZ all show them to be training constantly.
None of which happened in a single day.
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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by h0kuten » Sun Jul 26, 2015 6:57 am

Piccolo was inable to accurately place Majin Vegeta.

Because there is a clear distinction between Chi and what 'exactly' was affected when the two Buu's merged.

Vegeta Ssj2 G2 vs Semi-Perfect Cell was a 30% gap or so. Vegeta could tank a punch without moving too much, Buu did no such thing when he
Vegeta.

Because Buu makes no noticable increases and nobody later states Buu's Chi is increasing.

Vegeta exploded Buu into a million tiny shards like Gotenks did. All they needed was an additional person to burn all of Buu's pieces. With-
out any pieces to reform, Buu would be defeated.

Goku states Vegeta & himself will train to defeat Buu in an unspecified amount of time, meaning they can gain enormous increases through
training.

Piccolo never 'confirms' the boys are strong enough. The only validity we have is that the boys are told to 'train and train' with the entire day they have left. The only reason Piccolo sends the boys into the ROST earlier is because Buu is able to sense Chi which puts EVERYONE ELSE, at risk.

Buu was still superior but Piccolo had a full day of training left for the boys, whereas with Super Buu, Piccolo had to act on the second. The Viz, implications from Battle of Gods & Yo Son Goku & Daizenshuu all agree with this, even the Herms' translations make no clear distinction that Gotenks was stronger than Fat Buu.

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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by Truhan » Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:12 am

I'm sorry if I can't read through the whole argument, but if the author (Akira Toriyama) gets to write Piccolo committing a mistake when gauging Ki, then why couldn't he do the same with Vegeta and his "Goku is the undisputed #1" statement? Seems rather convenient to consider Vegeta and his obsession towards Goku totally out of character for the sake of a confirmation by the author.

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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by Hitiro » Sun Jul 26, 2015 9:19 am

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:He had to have been referring to the others as well. He says "We and everyone else", so even if it makes more sense to be about Vegeta and himself, Goku is still talking about everyone being done in by Boo. The way the quote is presented, the universe would've been doomed had they not finished Kid Boo there.
No, Goku doesn't say "We and everyone else" he just says "We"
Strength Checker wrote:Chapter: 517 (DBZ 323), P5.4-5
Context: after Goku tells Dende to heal good Boo
Goku: “Well, it’s alright, ain’t it Vegeta? This Boo and Mister Satan both did well. If these two hadn’t been here, then we and everyone else would have been done in. Right?…And if worse comes to worse, we can just fight again. Let’s train so that this time for sure we won’t lose even if we go one-on-one.”
Where in this quote does Goku say "We and everyone else"?

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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by Draconic » Sun Jul 26, 2015 9:33 am

When personal assumptions are used to refute direct statements, the argument will never go anywhere.
Hitiro wrote:
Hitiro wrote: Context: after Goku tells Dende to heal good Boo
Goku: “Well, it’s alright, ain’t it Vegeta? This Boo and Mister Satan both did well. If these two hadn’t been here, then we and everyone else would have been done in. Right?…And if worse comes to worse, we can just fight again. Let’s train so that this time for sure we won’t lose even if we go one-on-one.”
Where in this quote does Goku say "We and everyone else"?
Red part.
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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by Hitiro » Sun Jul 26, 2015 9:45 am

Draconic wrote:When personal assumptions are used to refute direct statements, the argument will never go anywhere.
Hitiro wrote:
Hitiro wrote: Context: after Goku tells Dende to heal good Boo
Goku: “Well, it’s alright, ain’t it Vegeta? This Boo and Mister Satan both did well. If these two hadn’t been here, then we and everyone else would have been done in. Right?…And if worse comes to worse, we can just fight again. Let’s train so that this time for sure we won’t lose even if we go one-on-one.”
Where in this quote does Goku say "We and everyone else"?
Red part.
I thought they were talking about the training part when they mentioned this. Which still doesn't say "We and everyone else" they are only referring to themselves when they are on about training. This "we and everyone else" part means nothing really because if Boo had not of shown up to help then Pure Boo would have killed Vegeta and then killed Goku. Gohan and the kids had yet to be revived. Vegeta only decides on using the Genki Dama and reviving everyone shortly after Boo saved him. If Boo didn't show up then Vegeta would have died, Goku would have died, the powerful characters would never have been revived and the whole Universe would have been destroyed.

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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by h0kuten » Sun Jul 26, 2015 10:53 am

So Goku says 'we and everyone else' when he and Vegeta are fighting Kid Buu in the World of The Kai's. It still leaves, Ultimate Gohan & Gotenks out of the equation, meaning if Kid Buu did deflect the Spirit Bomb and beat Goku Ssj3 & Vegeta Ssj2, he would probably travel to Earth and solo both Gohan & Gotenks as well.

Goku specifically says this.

I also can't imagine Gohan letting Buu blow up the world a second time around. He's the type of guy who learns from his mistakes, sadly enough. Regardless, Goku's validity that he and everyone else would have been done in if he failed should imply that Kid Buu is stronger than both Gohan & Gotenks.

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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by Hugo Boss » Sun Jul 26, 2015 10:58 am

Yeah, I guess we weren't paying attention to the point where Mr. Satan started to be a very important factor in the fight. Good observation.

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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Sun Jul 26, 2015 11:09 am

h0kuten wrote:So Goku says 'we and everyone else' when he and Vegeta are fighting Kid Buu in the World of The Kai's. It still leaves, Ultimate Gohan & Gotenks out of the equation, meaning if Kid Buu did deflect the Spirit Bomb and beat Goku Ssj3 & Vegeta Ssj2, he would probably travel to Earth and solo both Gohan & Gotenks as well.

Goku specifically says this.

I also can't imagine Gohan letting Buu blow up the world a second time around. He's the type of guy who learns from his mistakes, sadly enough. Regardless, Goku's validity that he and everyone else would have been done in if he failed should imply that Kid Buu is stronger than both Gohan & Gotenks.
And how would be able to do something if Pure Boo appears on the opposite of the planet? And blows it up before Gohan has time to do anything? Vegeta narrowly stopped Boo and he was right there.

You're forcing your made-up scenario that involves Pure Boo fighting Gohan and Gotenks in a desperate attempt to discredit multiple direct statements showing Goku's inferiority.

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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by Truhan » Sun Jul 26, 2015 11:11 am

Hey, I was just reminded that Kid Buu has God Ki. Apparently Goku and Vegeta couldn't sense him, hence the midget comment, and the fact that Kid Buu's reincarnation fought a God powered base Goku sets the argument in stone.

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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by h0kuten » Sun Jul 26, 2015 11:18 am

Kid Buu is looking for the strongest fighters in the Universe to fight them. He would teleport to Gohan like he did to Goku & Vegeta and fight, and beat them, just exactly as Goku predicted he would if Goku Ssj3 lost.

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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by Super Vegetto » Sun Jul 26, 2015 11:20 am

Truhan wrote:Hey, I was just reminded that Kid Buu has God Ki. Apparently Goku and Vegeta couldn't sense him, hence the midget comment, and the fact that Kid Buu's reincarnation fought a God powered base Goku sets the argument in stone.
Lol at this,,,ki sensing isn't always accurate...Btw Goku already knew the full extent of his power thus having confidence in SSJ3 at full power > Kid Boo...

Just wait for this,,,Oob might be deleted in new series and same goes for God powers if EoZ actualy happens.

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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by h0kuten » Sun Jul 26, 2015 11:26 am

Super Vegetto wrote:
Truhan wrote:Hey, I was just reminded that Kid Buu has God Ki. Apparently Goku and Vegeta couldn't sense him, hence the midget comment, and the fact that Kid Buu's reincarnation fought a God powered base Goku sets the argument in stone.
Lol at this,,,ki sensing isn't always accurate...Btw Goku already knew the full extent of his power thus having confidence in SSJ3 at full power > Kid Boo...

Just wait for this,,,Oob might be deleted in new series and same goes for God powers if EoZ actualy happens.
He had confidence in a fully powered Kamehameha, not his base Ssj3 tier power.

Kid Buu
~Full Power 45

Goku
~Ssj3 36
~Fully Powered Kamehameha 48

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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by Truhan » Sun Jul 26, 2015 11:30 am

Super Vegetto wrote:Lol at this,,,ki sensing isn't always accurate...Btw Goku already knew the full extent of his power thus having confidence in SSJ3 at full power > Kid Boo...

Just wait for this,,,Oob might be deleted in new series and same goes for God powers if EoZ actualy happens.
Hmm... Have people considered that a Ki blast's power is nothing without the size to vaporize an enemy completely, and that size without power won't keep the attack consistent? Perhaps Goku wanted his Kamehameha to be big, like Vegeta wanted the Genki-dama to be big as well, but with the power to prevent it from being pierced, off course. Last, but not the least, the power of whoever throws or keeps throwing the attack also matters.

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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by h0kuten » Sun Jul 26, 2015 11:33 am

Also, Dragonball Super's opening shows a quick second frame of Goku in his Super Saiyan God form. So the God form won't be retconned out. Dragonball Super is following everything in Battle of Gods in chronological order.

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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Sun Jul 26, 2015 11:43 am

Hitiro wrote:]I thought they were talking about the training part when they mentioned this. Which still doesn't say "We and everyone else" they are only referring to themselves when they are on about training. This "we and everyone else" part means nothing really because if Boo had not of shown up to help then Pure Boo would have killed Vegeta and then killed Goku. Gohan and the kids had yet to be revived. Vegeta only decides on using the Genki Dama and reviving everyone shortly after Boo saved him. If Boo didn't show up then Vegeta would have died, Goku would have died, the powerful characters would never have been revived and the whole Universe would have been destroyed.
The quote clearly means if they hadn't stopped Kid Boo then and there, all of them would've been finished. If it was pointless, there'd be no reason for Goku to mention it.
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Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by Darkprince410 » Sun Jul 26, 2015 11:45 am

h0kuten wrote:Because Buu makes no noticable increases and nobody later states Buu's Chi is increasing.
Piccolo outright stated though that Evil Buu was, in every way, greater than before. In addition, he went from Ssj Gotenks being in the ballpark to be able to defeat Fat Buu to Ssj Gotenks standing no chance against Evil Buu, as well as Goku readily admitting he stands no chance against Evil Buu before later saying he could have defeated Fat Buu. All of that indicates a power jump from Fat Buu to Evil Buu.
h0kuten wrote:I also can't imagine Gohan letting Buu blow up the world a second time around. He's the type of guy who learns from his mistakes, sadly enough. Regardless, Goku's validity that he and everyone else would have been done in if he failed should imply that Kid Buu is stronger than both Gohan & Gotenks.
Suppose Mr. Satan and Mr. Buu are off on the other side of the planet for some promotional thing (would hardly be out of character for Mr. Satan at all) or what if Gohan is off doing some research over on some distant country or something, and in both cases Mr. Buu gets angry for some unknown reason and spits out another evil Buu. In either case, Gohan isn't instantly available to stop Buu, and thus the evil Buu just drops a huge blast and destroys the planet. Same situation with Gotenks, but then you're also looking at Trunks and Goten needing to reach the same spot and then fuse before they can take Buu on.

All that Goku and Vegeta training till they become strong enough to beat Buu one on one would do is allow there to be more fighters available should that potentially happen. Why settle with two when you can have four?

Besides, given the dialogue in Super, Goku has yet to reach a point where he could readily fight Pure Buu on his own, so that's six months without any major kind of progression.
Truhan wrote:Hey, I was just reminded that Kid Buu has God Ki. Apparently Goku and Vegeta couldn't sense him, hence the midget comment, and the fact that Kid Buu's reincarnation fought a God powered base Goku sets the argument in stone.
He doesn't have god ki though. If this were to involve the Kaioushin within Buu, then he and the Pure Evil Buu are the only two that wouldn't have god ki within them. Pure Buu certainly doesn't have any kind of god ki within him whatsoever.
h0kuten wrote:He had confidence in a fully powered Kamehameha, not his base Ssj3 tier power.
He never expressed any uncertainty over the power of his Ssj3 strength in comparison to Pure Buu's in doing battle with him using hand-to-hand and "minor" blasts, The only thing he said he was having a difficult time with was Buu's stamina keeping up with his attacks readily. If Buu were stronger than him, he'd have mentioned or at least hinted at it, but it was only Buu's stamina that was giving him trouble.

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