SSJ3 Multiplier

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SSJ3 Multiplier

Post by theherodjl » Sun Jul 19, 2015 4:48 am

Hello, new member here and former longtime guest of Kanzenshuu's forums...anyways.

I am aware the guidebooks 'officially' list SSJ3 as being a 4x greater multiplier from SSJ2(which is x2 from SSJ1) and is supposedly the ultimate power of a Saiyan, not counting SSJG/SSJGSS. However I theorize that SSJ3 should be like SSJ2 in being yet another x2 increase on top of SSJ simply because it puts a few things into perspective...at least IMO.

When Goku stated he could defeat Fat Boo and later Kid Boo with SSJ3, he makes it sound like the duo are comparatively inferior to his level(despite his eventual experience in losing power fast with SSJ3 while alive and underestimating Kid Boo's stamina) enough so that a SSJ2 Vegeta was at least capable of doing damage to both of these forms of Boo. For a SSJ2 to actually do some damage worth regenerating from it would seem that a SSJ3 being x4 more powerful would be a little much, especially with how the series justifies a 1.33x increase being enough to thoroughly trash an opponent as in Vegeta vs Kiwi.

It may also fit that SSJ2 & SSJ3 are essentially the same time of mutation of SSJ in that they both double power upon being activated.

When we observe Gotenks too he appears to skip right over SSJ2 into SSJ3(maybe I'm wrong?) and if it works like I previously stated then it's either Gotenks powered up by x4 with both SSJ2 & SSJ3 or he skipped SSJ2 into SSJ3 would give him just the increase of SSJ3 of my theory being x2 rather than x4 as the guidebooks state. Which means Gotenks didn't stack his power x8 to become slightly superior to Super Boo but either x2 or x4 which honestly makes more sense(again IMO) than x8 because Super Boo being that much more powerful than SSJ Gotenks who is likely somewhere around SSJ3 Goku is kinda...ridiculous if we're going by PLs and multipliers(yeah I know it's DBZ but even still).

Also it kinda solves an issue in GT(non-canon or "alternate dimension") in that SSJ3 Goku loses kinda easily to Super Baby Vegeta but then somehow becomes much stronger as a Golden Oozaru(x500 the base), if SSJ3 is x2 of SSJ2 which is x2 of SSJ then we get a total of x200 the base in SSJ3 which makes enough sense for Baby Vegeta to whoop on a SSJ3 but lose to a Golden Oozaru.

Then again I could be missing something, any questions/comments regarding this?
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Re: SSJ3 Multiplier

Post by dbgtFO » Sun Jul 19, 2015 5:38 am

theherodjl wrote:Also it kinda solves an issue in GT(non-canon or "alternate dimension") in that SSJ3 Goku loses kinda easily to Super Baby Vegeta but then somehow becomes much stronger as a Golden Oozaru(x500 the base), if SSJ3 is x2 of SSJ2 which is x2 of SSJ then we get a total of x200 the base in SSJ3 which makes enough sense for Baby Vegeta to whoop on a SSJ3 but lose to a Golden Oozaru.
There is no recognized multiplier for SS4.

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Re: SSJ3 Multiplier

Post by theherodjl » Sun Jul 19, 2015 6:15 am

I know that but it honestly makes sense for Golden Oozaru to be greater than SSJ3 no matter what, unless GT is oddly written to have Golden Oozaru be numerically weaker but push Goku farther than SSJ3 like it's the Incredible Hulk of Saiyan transformations.
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Re: SSJ3 Multiplier

Post by dbgtFO » Sun Jul 19, 2015 6:21 am

theherodjl wrote:I know that but it honestly makes sense for Golden Oozaru to be greater than SSJ3 no matter what, unless GT is oddly written to have Golden Oozaru be numerically weaker but push Goku farther than SSJ3 like it's the Incredible Hulk of Saiyan transformations.
I personally prefer at the very least it to be 10x SS3 to go with the logic that Baby was already stronger than SS3 Goku before becoming an Ozaru, which should give at aleast a 10x boost.
In simple terms:
SS3 Goku < Vegeta-Baby < Super Vegeta-Baby 1 < Super Vegeta-Baby 2 < 10x Vegeta-Baby < Golden Ozaru Vegeta-Baby = SS4 Goku.

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Re: SSJ3 Multiplier

Post by Super Vegetto » Sun Jul 19, 2015 6:23 am

theherodjl wrote:Hello, new member here and former longtime guest of Kanzenshuu's forums...anyways.

I am aware the guidebooks 'officially' list SSJ3 as being a 4x greater multiplier from SSJ2(which is x2 from SSJ1) and is supposedly the ultimate power of a Saiyan, not counting SSJG/SSJGSS. However I theorize that SSJ3 should be like SSJ2 in being yet another x2 increase on top of SSJ simply because it puts a few things into perspective...at least IMO.

When Goku stated he could defeat Fat Boo and later Kid Boo with SSJ3, he makes it sound like the duo are comparatively inferior to his level(despite his eventual experience in losing power fast with SSJ3 while alive and underestimating Kid Boo's stamina) enough so that a SSJ2 Vegeta was at least capable of doing damage to both of these forms of Boo. For a SSJ2 to actually do some damage worth regenerating from it would seem that a SSJ3 being x4 more powerful would be a little much, especially with how the series justifies a 1.33x increase being enough to thoroughly trash an opponent as in Vegeta vs Kiwi.

It may also fit that SSJ2 & SSJ3 are essentially the same time of mutation of SSJ in that they both double power upon being activated.

When we observe Gotenks too he appears to skip right over SSJ2 into SSJ3(maybe I'm wrong?) and if it works like I previously stated then it's either Gotenks powered up by x4 with both SSJ2 & SSJ3 or he skipped SSJ2 into SSJ3 would give him just the increase of SSJ3 of my theory being x2 rather than x4 as the guidebooks state. Which means Gotenks didn't stack his power x8 to become slightly superior to Super Boo but either x2 or x4 which honestly makes more sense(again IMO) than x8 because Super Boo being that much more powerful than SSJ Gotenks who is likely somewhere around SSJ3 Goku is kinda...ridiculous if we're going by PLs and multipliers(yeah I know it's DBZ but even still).

Also it kinda solves an issue in GT(non-canon or "alternate dimension") in that SSJ3 Goku loses kinda easily to Super Baby Vegeta but then somehow becomes much stronger as a Golden Oozaru(x500 the base), if SSJ3 is x2 of SSJ2 which is x2 of SSJ then we get a total of x200 the base in SSJ3 which makes enough sense for Baby Vegeta to whoop on a SSJ3 but lose to a Golden Oozaru.

Then again I could be missing something, any questions/comments regarding this?
Vegeta couldn't do sheet to Majin Boo's that Goku fought...Skipping forms doesn't mean lower boost in power.

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Re: SSJ3 Multiplier

Post by Alex9196 » Sun Jul 19, 2015 7:00 am

what i never got about these multiplying stuff is the the following, for example lets say for arguments sake goku had a powerlevel of 100.000.000 in his base form in the buu saga. if we go with the multiplyers his ss3 would be 40 billion.
my point is that for example android 18 who is considerably stronger than 100.000.000 could defeat goku in his base form probably with one hit if he doesnt has time to transform allthough his max would be WAY stronger than her. this was always puzzling to me since all other races can have their power all the time without having to transform like piccolo, krillin, cell, buu.

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Re: SSJ3 Multiplier

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:17 am

2x gives no room for SS3 Goku to be stronger than Fat Boo, Innocent Boo to be less than half of Fat Boo, and Innocent Boo to be stronger than SS2 Goku/Vegeta.

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Re: SSJ3 Multiplier

Post by theherodjl » Sun Jul 19, 2015 2:22 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:2x gives no room for SS3 Goku to be stronger than Fat Boo, Innocent Boo to be less than half of Fat Boo, and Innocent Boo to be stronger than SS2 Goku/Vegeta.
How was Innocent Boo stronger than the SSJ2 level? When he fought Kid Boo he got his rear handed to him every bit as much as Vegeta did if not worse, and when he was the superior Fat Boo this SSJ2 Vegeta managed to mess him up a little before he got serious.
It would be like this.
Majin Vegeta/SSJ2 Goku - 10
Fat Boo - 7(hatched)11(attacks Dabura)15(gets angry)
Innocent Boo - 7
Pure Evil Boo - 8
Pure Boo - 16
SSJ3 Goku - 20

It can fit.
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Re: SSJ3 Multiplier

Post by Truhan » Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:39 am

Have you seen the massive hair upgrade that SSJ3 was over SSJ2? A 4x multiplier is justified.

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Re: SSJ3 Multiplier

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:50 am

I think SS3 is just a way of bringing more of one Saiyan's hidden power that doesn't show up in normal circunstances. So, if he doesn't have too much power to bring on, the added power won't be so significant as multiplying battle power by 2 or 4 on top of SS2. In Goku's case I could accept that (SS2'BP x 4) formula, but regarding SS3 Gotenks I think a different formula (SS'BP x 2) doesn't contradict anything in the story. SS and SS2, though, might work the same way to all the Saiyans, at least between Vegeta and Goku, with minor differences.

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Re: SSJ3 Multiplier

Post by dbgtFO » Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:57 am

Hugo Boss wrote:I think SS3 is just a way of bringing more of one Saiyan's hidden power that doesn't show up in normal circunstances. So, if he doesn't have too much power to bring on, the added power won't be so significant as multiplying battle power by 2 or 4 on top of SS2. In Goku's case I could accept that (SS2'BP x 4) formula, but regarding SS3 Gotenks I think a different formula (SS'BP x 2) doesn't contradict anything in the story. SS and SS2, though, might work the same way to all the Saiyans, at least between Vegeta and Goku, with minor differences.
That's what I usually end up with in regards to Gotenks too!

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Re: SSJ3 Multiplier

Post by theherodjl » Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:30 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:I think SS3 is just a way of bringing more of one Saiyan's hidden power that doesn't show up in normal circunstances. So, if he doesn't have too much power to bring on, the added power won't be so significant as multiplying battle power by 2 or 4 on top of SS2. In Goku's case I could accept that (SS2'BP x 4) formula, but regarding SS3 Gotenks I think a different formula (SS'BP x 2) doesn't contradict anything in the story. SS and SS2, though, might work the same way to all the Saiyans, at least between Vegeta and Goku, with minor differences.
I really don't like the multiplier concept but it's clear DBZ has them to clarify that characters do get stronger as stated in the guidebooks, I just don't know how accurate the given multipliers are.

I could see SSJ being stretched to be more like x40 base just because Goku and Freeza were more or less even when Goku used a Kaio-ken x20 while Freeza was at 50% and the result between SSJ vs 100% was even as well, initially anyways before Freeza started losing power.
It would also make more sense that the multipliers shrink as the forms get greater, gradually decreasing which is why I think SSJ3 shouldn't be above SSJ2 as a multiplier just equal at the very least.
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Re: SSJ3 Multiplier

Post by h0kuten » Mon Jul 20, 2015 4:59 pm

Innocent or Good Boo only appears to do better than Vegeta Ssj2, because of his infinite stamina and regeneration. He suffered two fatality attacks and would of died had it not been for his regeneration, Vegeta survived his beating. This obviously implies that Boo only appears stronger than he is because he doesn't have the handicaps normal fighters do.

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Re: SSJ3 Multiplier

Post by Doctor. » Mon Jul 20, 2015 5:04 pm

h0kuten wrote:Innocent or Good Boo only appears to do better than Vegeta Ssj2, because of his infinite stamina and regeneration. He suffered two fatality attacks and would of died had it not been for his regeneration, Vegeta survived his beating. This obviously implies that Boo only appears stronger than he is because he doesn't have the handicaps normal fighters do.
Kid Boo didn't survive the planet's explosion, Freeza survived Namek's. Does this mean Freeza is superior and Boo only appears stronger than SS3 because of his regen?

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Re: SSJ3 Multiplier

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Mon Jul 20, 2015 5:16 pm

Regeneration sounds like an excuse. Good Boo clearly made Pure Boo use more effort than he did against Vegeta.

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Re: SSJ3 Multiplier

Post by Doctor. » Mon Jul 20, 2015 5:17 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Regeneration sounds like an excuse. Good Boo clearly made Pure Boo use more effort than he did against Vegeta.
And that's a weaker Boo than the one he was referring to.

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Re: SSJ3 Multiplier

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Mon Jul 20, 2015 5:19 pm

Doctor. wrote:
SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Regeneration sounds like an excuse. Good Boo clearly made Pure Boo use more effort than he did against Vegeta.
And that's a weaker Boo than the one he was referring to.
Which Boo was he referring to? I was under the impression we were discussing Good Boo's performance against Pure Boo compared to Vegeta's.

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Re: SSJ3 Multiplier

Post by Alex9196 » Mon Jul 20, 2015 5:20 pm

but when i think of it there was a scene where a dumbass shot super buu, who is the strongest buu imo and the bullets actualy went in his body, while normaly bulets dont affect anyone after a certain point.

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Re: SSJ3 Multiplier

Post by theherodjl » Mon Jul 20, 2015 5:21 pm

Doctor. wrote:
h0kuten wrote:Innocent or Good Boo only appears to do better than Vegeta Ssj2, because of his infinite stamina and regeneration. He suffered two fatality attacks and would of died had it not been for his regeneration, Vegeta survived his beating. This obviously implies that Boo only appears stronger than he is because he doesn't have the handicaps normal fighters do.
Kid Boo didn't survive the planet's explosion, Freeza survived Namek's. Does this mean Freeza is superior and Boo only appears stronger than SS3 because of his regen?
Freeza is an outlier, his advanced physiology likely prevented him from being reduced to dust, and to a non-canonical extent Cooler was able to survive being placed on the sun's surface for a time despite Broly getting utterly incinerated by it. The 'Frost Demons' seem to possess extraordinarily durable bodies and this may explain why they are stronger than most species in the universe, even Cell seemed to inherit this trait when a small piece of him survived a planetary explosion himself. Using Freeza as an example to explain other fighter's durability shouldn't count just because it doesn't click well.
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Re: SSJ3 Multiplier

Post by Doctor. » Mon Jul 20, 2015 5:27 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Regeneration sounds like an excuse. Good Boo clearly made Pure Boo use more effort than he did against Vegeta.
And that's a weaker Boo than the one he was referring to.
Which Boo was he referring to? I was under the impression we were discussing Good Boo's performance against Pure Boo compared to Vegeta's.
I thought he was talking about Fat Boo, because I don't remember "two fatality attacks" against Kid Boo. If he was referring to Mr. Boo, then apologies.

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