Why didn't Supreme or Old Kai know about SS God?

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Berserker1921
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Why didn't Supreme or Old Kai know about SS God?

Post by Berserker1921 » Fri Aug 28, 2015 10:21 pm

I find it hard to believe that a couple of the oldest and wisest beings in universe. Did not know of the super Saiyan God? Even in dbgt( yes not cannon), old Kai knew what ssj4 was. Yet it's funny they never knew of this form. I mean the Saiyan God vs the sayians must have happened in one of their life times. Do you think they hid the fact they knew or honestly had no idea?

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Re: Why didn't Supreme or Old Kai know about SS God?

Post by fadeddreams5 » Fri Aug 28, 2015 10:27 pm

The first and only previous SSJG appeared in one planet before being, presumably, defeated because of the time limit of the form. The Kaioshin didn't know about it for the same reason they had no idea about Cell or SSJ2 Gohan.

And no, they could not sense him either. The original SSJG was likely SSJ level at most.
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Re: Why didn't Supreme or Old Kai know about SS God?

Post by Herms » Fri Aug 28, 2015 10:46 pm

People say Elder Kaioshin knew about Super Saiyan 4 in GT, but in the actual episodes he's just throwing the term around while training Goku to draw out his dormant power. He thought just pulling Goku's tail out would be enough to allow Goku to defeat Baby, and apparently never even planned on Goku becoming Golden Oozaru. Overall it doesn't seem as if he had preexisting knowledge of any specific transformation, but was just doing things he thought would make Goku grow stronger than Super Saiyan 3. Another important thing to remember is that in-universe, the terms "Super Saiyan 2" and "Super Saiyan 3" didn't exist until Goku made them up sometime after the Cell Games. "Super Saiyan 4" would therefore have to follow suit: Elder Kaioshin didn't know about Super Saiyan 4, instead he invented the term to refer to whatever would end up surpassing Super Saiyan 3.

As for Super Saiyan God, in BoG Shenlong talks about it having been "erased from history", so that might explain why nobody, not even the Kaioshins, know about it now. If the events surrounding the first Super Saiyan God happened quickly enough and were confined to Planet Vegeta, there's a high chance that they would have simply overlooked it, the same way East Kaioshin apparently doesn't know about Cell or the other androids. Most likely the last Super Saiyan God was born sometime during Elder Kaioshin's imprisonment (ie sometime in the last 75 million years), so he has a good excuse for not noticing. Meanwhile, East Kaioshin is somewhat notorious for overlooking things.
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Re: Why didn't Supreme or Old Kai know about SS God?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Fri Aug 28, 2015 10:49 pm

He didn't even know what a normal SSj was. I doubt Elder Kaioshin knew anything about the SSj God.
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Re: Why didn't Supreme or Old Kai know about SS God?

Post by Berserker1921 » Fri Aug 28, 2015 11:30 pm

Herms wrote:People say Elder Kaioshin knew about Super Saiyan 4 in GT, but in the actual episodes he's just throwing the term around while training Goku to draw out his dormant power. He thought just pulling Goku's tail out would be enough to allow Goku to defeat Baby, and apparently never even planned on Goku becoming Golden Oozaru. Overall it doesn't seem as if he had preexisting knowledge of any specific transformation, but was just doing things he thought would make Goku grow stronger than Super Saiyan 3. Another important thing to remember is that in-universe, the terms "Super Saiyan 2" and "Super Saiyan 3" didn't exist until Goku made them up sometime after the Cell Games. "Super Saiyan 4" would therefore have to follow suit: Elder Kaioshin didn't know about Super Saiyan 4, instead he invented the term to refer to whatever would end up surpassing Super Saiyan 3.

As for Super Saiyan God, in BoG Shenlong talks about it having been "erased from history", so that might explain why nobody, not even the Kaioshins, know about it now. If the events surrounding the first Super Saiyan God happened quickly enough and were confined to Planet Vegeta, there's a high chance that they would have simply overlooked it, the same way East Kaioshin apparently doesn't know about Cell or the other androids. Most likely the last Super Saiyan God was born sometime during Elder Kaioshin's imprisonment (ie sometime in the last 75 million years), so he has a good excuse for not noticing. Meanwhile, East Kaioshin is somewhat notorious for overlooking things.
I hope in super they mention something about that. Perhaps east Kai heard it as rumors from grand supreme Kai. And maybe old Kai was probably in the sword during the time of the ssj God. Your probably right about that.

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Re: Why didn't Supreme or Old Kai know about SS God?

Post by nickzambuto » Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:21 am

Super Saiyans are extremely, extremely rare. Before Goku, the last one appeared 1,000 years ago, and that was presumably the very first. The Super Saiyan God was even more rare, only appearing once, who-knows-how-long-ago in some dirty corner of the universe where Saiyans were bred, and then it disappeared after like seven minutes. And that's it, no more until Goku showed up. Not even Whis knew what a Super Saiyan God was, and it makes sense, these gods aren't quite omniscient, they are still very much human. It's very appropriate to me that only Shenron could tell them what a Super Saiyan God was.

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Re: Why didn't Supreme or Old Kai know about SS God?

Post by Mystic Tien » Sat Aug 29, 2015 12:28 pm

East Kaioshin, because he is stupid. He didn't even notice that Beerus awoke until Old Kaioshin told him so, it is like he doesn't even use ki-sensing, unless he is specifically told to.

Old Kaioshin? Have no idea. I actually am more interested in why Shenron out of all people (or dragons?) knew it. Oh. And Frieza as well.
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Hellspawn28 wrote:Cool to see Gohan have a kill for once. He hasn't killed someone since Cell (or Broli if you want to count in General).
He almost got Videl killed in Battle of Gods tho.

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Re: Why didn't Supreme or Old Kai know about SS God?

Post by Sayo-chan » Sat Aug 29, 2015 12:31 pm

Berserker1921 wrote:Even in dbgt( yes not cannon
Why do people always have to make these offhand comments? GT is canon to anyone that wants it to be.
Most Dragon Ball fans are incapable of making a logically sound argument.

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Re: Why didn't Supreme or Old Kai know about SS God?

Post by nickzambuto » Sat Aug 29, 2015 1:29 pm

Mystic Tien wrote:East Kaioshin, because he is stupid. He didn't even notice that Beerus awoke until Old Kaioshin told him so, it is like he doesn't even use ki-sensing, unless he is specifically told to.

Old Kaioshin? Have no idea. I actually am more interested in why Shenron out of all people (or dragons?) knew it. Oh. And Freeza as well.
Because Shenron is magical and can grant wishes. He didn't have the knowledge offhand, the wish was for him to tell them, so he used his magic to magically know the story.

Although that comment by Freeza during Minus was weird. But we know that his father is the one who told him about all that stuff, and as part of my headcanon King Cold is an extremely intelligent, perceptive, and worldly businessman who was the real brains behind the planet trade organization and just gave his spoiled son a section to run (he ran the real organization, business, while Freeza ran a tyranny where everyone had to do what he said like an arrogant and pampered teenager) so him having knowledge of the Super Saiyan God just makes him cooler to me 8)

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Re: Why didn't Supreme or Old Kai know about SS God?

Post by Mystic Tien » Sat Aug 29, 2015 1:39 pm

nickzambuto wrote:
Mystic Tenshinhan wrote:East Kaioshin, because he is stupid. He didn't even notice that Beerus awoke until Old Kaioshin told him so, it is like he doesn't even use ki-sensing, unless he is specifically told to.

Old Kaioshin? Have no idea. I actually am more interested in why Shenron out of all people (or dragons?) knew it. Oh. And Freeza as well.
Because Shenron is magical and can grant wishes. He didn't have the knowledge offhand, the wish was for him to tell them, so he used his magic to magically know the story.

Although that comment by Freeza during Minus was weird. But we know that his father is the one who told him about all that stuff, and as part of my headcanon King Cold is an extremely intelligent, perceptive, and worldly businessman who was the real brains behind the planet trade organization and just gave his spoiled son a section to run (he ran the real organization, business, while Freeza ran a tyranny where everyone had to do what he said like an arrogant and pampered teenager) so him having knowledge of the Super Saiyan God just makes him cooler to me 8)
But why Beerus and Whis, and heck, even Prince Vegeta himself didn't know about SSJ God, while King Cold did?
Marco Polo wrote:
Hellspawn28 wrote:Cool to see Gohan have a kill for once. He hasn't killed someone since Cell (or Broli if you want to count in General).
He almost got Videl killed in Battle of Gods tho.

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Re: Why didn't Supreme or Old Kai know about SS God?

Post by nickzambuto » Sat Aug 29, 2015 1:42 pm

Mystic Tien wrote:
nickzambuto wrote:
Mystic Tenshinhan wrote:East Kaioshin, because he is stupid. He didn't even notice that Beerus awoke until Old Kaioshin told him so, it is like he doesn't even use ki-sensing, unless he is specifically told to.

Old Kaioshin? Have no idea. I actually am more interested in why Shenron out of all people (or dragons?) knew it. Oh. And Freeza as well.
Because Shenron is magical and can grant wishes. He didn't have the knowledge offhand, the wish was for him to tell them, so he used his magic to magically know the story.

Although that comment by Freeza during Minus was weird. But we know that his father is the one who told him about all that stuff, and as part of my headcanon King Cold is an extremely intelligent, perceptive, and worldly businessman who was the real brains behind the planet trade organization and just gave his spoiled son a section to run (he ran the real organization, business, while Freeza ran a tyranny where everyone had to do what he said like an arrogant and pampered teenager) so him having knowledge of the Super Saiyan God just makes him cooler to me 8)
But why Beerus and Whis, and heck, even Prince Vegeta himself didn't know about SSJ God, while King Cold did?
Because King Cold is a badass :wink:

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Re: Why didn't Supreme or Old Kai know about SS God?

Post by Berserker1921 » Sat Aug 29, 2015 1:50 pm

Mystic Tien wrote:
nickzambuto wrote:
Mystic Tenshinhan wrote:East Kaioshin, because he is stupid. He didn't even notice that Beerus awoke until Old Kaioshin told him so, it is like he doesn't even use ki-sensing, unless he is specifically told to.

Old Kaioshin? Have no idea. I actually am more interested in why Shenron out of all people (or dragons?) knew it. Oh. And Freeza as well.
Because Shenron is magical and can grant wishes. He didn't have the knowledge offhand, the wish was for him to tell them, so he used his magic to magically know the story.

Although that comment by Freeza during Minus was weird. But we know that his father is the one who told him about all that stuff, and as part of my headcanon King Cold is an extremely intelligent, perceptive, and worldly businessman who was the real brains behind the planet trade organization and just gave his spoiled son a section to run (he ran the real organization, business, while Freeza ran a tyranny where everyone had to do what he said like an arrogant and pampered teenager) so him having knowledge of the Super Saiyan God just makes him cooler to me 8)
But why Beerus and Whis, and heck, even Prince Vegeta himself didn't know about SSJ God, while King Cold did?
Too bad he died against an emo super Saiyan teenager lol

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Re: Why didn't Supreme or Old Kai know about SS God?

Post by Tectorman » Sat Aug 29, 2015 2:44 pm

Slight tangent:

What led the original six good-hearted Saiyans to figure out the SSJG ritual in the first place?

Imagine it. They are alone and isolated from all help, save each other (and miraculously, they numbered six in the first place*). Evil Saiyans and evil Oozaru are stomping all around them. We know the original SSJG was not a fighting genius like Goku, since he was defeated after the form wore off. Presumably, none of the other five would have been any more fighting savvy. So what exactly would possess them to think that linking hands and diverting power would accomplish a thing?

*Unless they had more than six. But that then raises the question of how they knew to tell one (or more) guy(s) to hang back while the rest did the ritual.
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Re: Why didn't Supreme or Old Kai know about SS God?

Post by Cetra » Sat Aug 29, 2015 3:08 pm

Kibito Kai does lack a lot of knowledge. Elder Kaiohshin did also not know that Earth Dragon Balls were a thing. They are not omniscient.
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Re: Why didn't Supreme or Old Kai know about SS God?

Post by fadeddreams5 » Sat Aug 29, 2015 3:37 pm

Tectorman wrote:Slight tangent:

What led the original six good-hearted Saiyans to figure out the SSJG ritual in the first place?

Imagine it. They are alone and isolated from all help, save each other (and miraculously, they numbered six in the first place*). Evil Saiyans and evil Oozaru are stomping all around them. We know the original SSJG was not a fighting genius like Goku, since he was defeated after the form wore off. Presumably, none of the other five would have been any more fighting savvy. So what exactly would possess them to think that linking hands and diverting power would accomplish a thing?

*Unless they had more than six. But that then raises the question of how they knew to tell one (or more) guy(s) to hang back while the rest did the ritual.
I forgot. Is it ever specified they NEED to hold hands and form a circle? Because, if not, 5 other saiyans likely transferred their energy to a 6th one out of desperation, similar to what occurs in the first Broly movie. Just so happens, he ended up transforming into something they did not expect.
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Re: Why didn't Supreme or Old Kai know about SS God?

Post by Mystic Tien » Sat Aug 29, 2015 3:40 pm

I also don't quite understand why Gohan transformed into SSJ during the god ritual. Was there a need? Does it make a SSJ God stronger? Does it at all has any influence on him? Also considering, that they did this thing twice, does it mean that Goku became stronger than he was originally intended to, or did the first attempt not matter?
Marco Polo wrote:
Hellspawn28 wrote:Cool to see Gohan have a kill for once. He hasn't killed someone since Cell (or Broli if you want to count in General).
He almost got Videl killed in Battle of Gods tho.

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Re: Why didn't Supreme or Old Kai know about SS God?

Post by Tectorman » Sat Aug 29, 2015 3:49 pm

I think the answer is "both".

The humongous power boost Goku got from the first attempt made his SSJ far stronger than even his conventional SSJ3.

SSJ3 Goku: 400
Augmented SSJ Goku: 800

And then he retained that boost when he went SSJG.

Projected SSJG: 6,000,000
Actual SSJG: 6,000,400

It's just that, despite keeping the extra power from the first attempt, it made next to no difference compared to the overall power of the form. It still happened, it just didn't matter.

Maybe. It's also possible that he released all that extra power when he powered down the first time (right before Videl reveals her pregnancy).
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Re: Why didn't Supreme or Old Kai know about SS God?

Post by Zelvin » Sat Aug 29, 2015 4:45 pm

It's really because SSG didn't exist until Toriyama invented it. Maybe it'll be a plot point in DBS and maybe they'll even squeeze in some Xenoverse continuity and ask her about who the first SSG was. With the ability to perceive all of history and travel to any era, they could very well use the Scroll of Eternity to view the events involving the very first SSG. Maybe even discovering that it was never supposed to happen. Maybe it was Bardock who'd been accidentally dumped further back in time. But Toriyama never saw that as canon. Though it would fit for DBO and Xenoverse.

Anyway, in DBS, Elder Kai does state that it was Beerus who sealed him in the Z-Sword. So he couldn't have known about SSG. It's entirely possible the appearance of the first SSG coincided with Bibidi using Kid Buu to murder the universe and the Supreme Kais were too busy dealing with that to take notice of this other being. Beerus was probably asleep and Whis doesn't look into anything to do with the rest of the universe unless specifically asked to.
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Re: Why didn't Supreme or Old Kai know about SS God?

Post by Galan007 » Sat Aug 29, 2015 5:44 pm

fadeddreams5 wrote:The original SSJG was likely SSJ level at most.
How did you come to this conclusion?

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Re: Why didn't Supreme or Old Kai know about SS God?

Post by fadeddreams5 » Sat Aug 29, 2015 6:17 pm

Galan007 wrote:
fadeddreams5 wrote:The original SSJG was likely SSJ level at most.
How did you come to this conclusion?
I meant SSJ Goku (namek arc). Unless the saiyans of ancient times somehow had mutant strength, their power levels were very likely much lower than saiyan saga Vegeta's, who had a PL of 18,000. Right before Goku transformed into a SSJ, his PL was 3,000,000. Goku went through hell and back to attain this sort of power, including training with gods and using future technology to become stronger. As a result, he far surpassed Vegeta, who was regarded a prodigy among his race.

SSJG's power eclipses that of a SSJ. If a saiyan with a PL of 3000 (this is me being generous) becomes a SSJG, and his power ends up equaling that of SSJ Goku from the namek saga, he's just gained a 50000x boost, which seems reasonable. It seems even more reasonable to assume the original SSJG was actually WEAKER than SSJ Goku.
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