Raging Vegeta Ssj2 (DB Super) vs Super Vegetto (DB Super)

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Re: Raging Vegeta Ssj2 (DB Super) vs Super Vegetto (DB Super

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Sep 05, 2015 2:08 am

Vegeta wins with ease. I have BoG Vegetto at 75% of this Vegeta.

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Re: Raging Vegeta Ssj2 (DB Super) vs Super Vegetto (DB Super

Post by Blackstripe » Sat Sep 05, 2015 11:12 am

Zombie wrote:Vegeta wins with ease. I have BoG Vegetto at 75% of this Vegeta.
That's about where I put him as well. At least, BoG SSJ2 Vegetto.

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Re: Raging Vegeta Ssj2 (DB Super) vs Super Vegetto (DB Super

Post by Hitiro » Sat Sep 05, 2015 3:50 pm

Kamiccolo9 wrote:
Low Tone G wrote: But do we realize that this Rage Vegeta must be at least 200 times stronger than regular SSJ2 himself? When did a rage boost generated such an immense increase? Even if we count Goku's transformation into SSJ1, a 200x multiplier is way too huge...
Gohan had a 1,307 times boost as a kid.
His power fluctuated with his emotions. We don't know what his base power was at the time. It wasn't necessarily 1. For all we know Gohan had access to a battle power of 200 if he could use his power properly. That would mean his battle power only increased around 5x-10x. It would certainly fit with his later fights too.

Frankly I don't see why Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta needs to be more powerful than SSJ Vegetto. SSJ Vegetto was stronger than Boohan. made up of two characters who were already massively stronger than SSJ3 Goku. That would mean that Vegetto's fusion boost would have to be something like 10x+ just to match Boohan. So we have something like this:

SSJ3 Goku: 2%
SSJ3 Gotenks: 4.5%
Evil Boo: 4.5%
Ultimate Gohan: 6%
SSJ2 Vegeta(Enraged): 7.5%
Beerus: 10%
Boohan: 10.5%
SSJ Vegetto: 13.125%
SSJ2 Vegetto: 26.25%
SSJ3 Vegetto(Hypothetical): 105%

I put this as a hypothetical because we can't guarantee that Goku thought he could go above SSJ2 as a fusion. Or even SSJ. It took the kids a couple of weeks to figure out how to be able to transform into a SSJ3 with fusion when they were in the RoSaT. I don't think Beerus would have given them the time to figure out how to do it.

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Re: Raging Vegeta Ssj2 (DB Super) vs Super Vegetto (DB Super

Post by h0kuten » Sat Sep 05, 2015 10:37 pm

Hitiro wrote:
Kamiccolo9 wrote:
Low Tone G wrote: But do we realize that this Rage Vegeta must be at least 200 times stronger than regular SSJ2 himself? When did a rage boost generated such an immense increase? Even if we count Goku's transformation into SSJ1, a 200x multiplier is way too huge...
Gohan had a 1,307 times boost as a kid.
His power fluctuated with his emotions. We don't know what his base power was at the time. It wasn't necessarily 1. For all we know Gohan had access to a battle power of 200 if he could use his power properly. That would mean his battle power only increased around 5x-10x. It would certainly fit with his later fights too.

Frankly I don't see why Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta needs to be more powerful than SSJ Vegetto. SSJ Vegetto was stronger than Boohan. made up of two characters who were already massively stronger than SSJ3 Goku. That would mean that Vegetto's fusion boost would have to be something like 10x+ just to match Boohan. So we have something like this:

SSJ3 Goku: 2%
SSJ3 Gotenks: 4.5%
Evil Boo: 4.5%
Ultimate Gohan: 6%
SSJ2 Vegeta(Enraged): 7.5%
Beerus: 10%
Boohan: 10.5%
SSJ Vegetto: 13.125%
SSJ2 Vegetto: 26.25%
SSJ3 Vegetto(Hypothetical): 105%

I put this as a hypothetical because we can't guarantee that Goku thought he could go above SSJ2 as a fusion. Or even SSJ. It took the kids a couple of weeks to figure out how to be able to transform into a SSJ3 with fusion when they were in the RoSaT. I don't think Beerus would have given them the time to figure out how to do it.
Beerus states that his fight with Raging Vegeta is the most fun he had since Goku Ssj3.

According to Dragonball Super:
Raging Vegeta > Goku Ssj3 > Ultimate Gohan

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Re: Raging Vegeta Ssj2 (DB Super) vs Super Vegetto (DB Super

Post by OWmyDragonBallz » Sun Sep 06, 2015 4:41 am

Should be pretty clear now that after Boo saga, Goku and Vegeta's latent abilities allowed their ki to surpass Gohan/Gotenks through intense training.

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Re: Raging Vegeta Ssj2 (DB Super) vs Super Vegetto (DB Super

Post by Mystic Tien » Sun Sep 06, 2015 9:37 am

mikey4111 wrote:First off, this argument is about Rageta being stronger then Vegito. Not about if Vegito can beat Beerus. We all know he can't beat Beerus.
Ragetto is still stronger than Beerus, though :D Seriously, at this point, I don't care. Characters are as strong as plot requires, which is clearly seen with Rageta. If Toriyama wishes, Mr. Satan becomes Super Human God Ultra Super Human and one-shots Whis, if Toriyama wishes, Frieza in his first form one-shots Gohan, etc.
Marco Polo wrote:
Hellspawn28 wrote:Cool to see Gohan have a kill for once. He hasn't killed someone since Cell (or Broli if you want to count in General).
He almost got Videl killed in Battle of Gods tho.

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Re: Raging Vegeta Ssj2 (DB Super) vs Super Vegetto (DB Super

Post by Hitiro » Sun Sep 06, 2015 2:06 pm

h0kuten wrote:Beerus states that his fight with Raging Vegeta is the most fun he had since Goku Ssj3.

According to Dragonball Super:
Raging Vegeta > Goku Ssj3 > Ultimate Gohan
Beerus says that Vegeta provided more entertainment than Goku. All that tells us is that Vegeta amused Beerus more than Goku did. That doesn't really have any bearing on where Gohan and Gotenks were placed. And given that Beerus is so strong anyway he is hardly going to be able to tell the difference between Goku, Gohan and Gotenks if none of them made him use up to 10% of his power. I'm sure it is highly possible that the anime could be suggesting SSJ3 Goku is above Ultimate Gohan now. But we can't treat one vague comment like this to mean Goku must be above the boys now. It is just a vague comparison between Goku and Vegeta. Also, providing Beerus with entertainment doesn't necessarily mean to suggest it was just about fighting prowess either. Because Beerus found Goku an odd fellow anyway. He could have been entertained by the way he acted. Same goes for Vegeta. The amalgamation of events up to that point could have lead to Vegeta being more entertaining than Goku. And Goku could have still provided more entertainment than Gohan and Gotenks because of the way he acted while they sparred.

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Re: Raging Vegeta Ssj2 (DB Super) vs Super Vegetto (DB Super

Post by h0kuten » Sun Sep 06, 2015 3:19 pm

Hitiro wrote:
h0kuten wrote:Beerus states that his fight with Raging Vegeta is the most fun he had since Goku Ssj3.

According to Dragonball Super:
Raging Vegeta > Goku Ssj3 > Ultimate Gohan
Beerus says that Vegeta provided more entertainment than Goku. All that tells us is that Vegeta amused Beerus more than Goku did. That doesn't really have any bearing on where Gohan and Gotenks were placed. And given that Beerus is so strong anyway he is hardly going to be able to tell the difference between Goku, Gohan and Gotenks if none of them made him use up to 10% of his power. I'm sure it is highly possible that the anime could be suggesting SSJ3 Goku is above Ultimate Gohan now. But we can't treat one vague comment like this to mean Goku must be above the boys now. It is just a vague comparison between Goku and Vegeta. Also, providing Beerus with entertainment doesn't necessarily mean to suggest it was just about fighting prowess either. Because Beerus found Goku an odd fellow anyway. He could have been entertained by the way he acted. Same goes for Vegeta. The amalgamation of events up to that point could have lead to Vegeta being more entertaining than Goku. And Goku could have still provided more entertainment than Gohan and Gotenks because of the way he acted while they sparred.
In a story where strength is the most valued attribute, the reasonable interpretation regarding Beerus' statement is that Goku provided the most 'fun', or in other-words, was the strongest fighter up until that point. It would be a worthless statement that bears no meaning to the actual story if this wasn't the case.

Beerus was able to suppress his energy to the point where he wouldn't kill any fighter, just incapacitate them. This also means Beerus can make a clear distinction from Tien to Ultimate Gohan. So your secondary point regarding Beerus being inable to tell a difference between said fighters doesn't hold much merit.

The Fat Majin Boo enjoyed fighting Goku Ssj3 because it was fun -he was strong enough to challenge him, not because Goku Ssj3 looked weird, or behaved differently, same situation here. The examples where 'fun' is a keyword for 'strength' are nearly endless. From Perfect Cell, to Majin Boo to The Ginyu Force ect ect. In every scenario, fun is a key example for strength.

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Re: Raging Vegeta Ssj2 (DB Super) vs Super Vegetto (DB Super

Post by Hugo Boss » Sun Sep 06, 2015 4:59 pm

Yeah, this time I agree with h0kuten. Before Vegeta snapped, Goku is supposed to be the strongest fighter Beerus has faced after this awakening. And Mr. Boo seemed to fair better than even Gohan.

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Re: Raging Vegeta Ssj2 (DB Super) vs Super Vegetto (DB Super

Post by Hitiro » Mon Sep 07, 2015 5:11 am

h0kuten wrote:In a story where strength is the most valued attribute, the reasonable interpretation regarding Beerus' statement is that Goku provided the most 'fun', or in other-words, was the strongest fighter up until that point. It would be a worthless statement that bears no meaning to the actual story if this wasn't the case.

Beerus was able to suppress his energy to the point where he wouldn't kill any fighter, just incapacitate them. This also means Beerus can make a clear distinction from Tenshinhan to Ultimate Gohan. So your secondary point regarding Beerus being inable to tell a difference between said fighters doesn't hold much merit.

The Fat Majin Boo enjoyed fighting Goku Ssj3 because it was fun -he was strong enough to challenge him, not because Goku Ssj3 looked weird, or behaved differently, same situation here. The examples where 'fun' is a keyword for 'strength' are nearly endless. From Perfect Cell, to Majin Boo to The Ginyu Force ect ect. In every scenario, fun is a key example for strength.
If Beerus entertainment was based just on Goku's fighting prowess he would not be entertained at all because Goku didn't offer him anything. So there must be more to it than just Goku's strength as a fighter. Hence why I made the point that it was probably Goku's personality that amused Beerus during the fight.

There is a vast difference between Tenshinhan and Ultimate Gohan. Something that would be much more noticeable to him than the difference between SSJ3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan. So there is nothing wrong with this point really.

That is the key issue here though. You say Fat Boo enjoyed fighting SSJ3 Goku because he was strong enough to challenge him. That is an entirely different situation because in this scenario Goku was not strong enough to provide Beerus with a challenge. So if anything he should have been bored. Not entertained. Hence why I pointed to Goku's personality as being a factor in how he entertained Beerus. Beerus even said "Nobody has asked me to spar before." So something unexpected like that is what entertained him. All of the examples you referenced are when characters are close in strength. In fact, Cell makes this point exactly when he says to Goku “Excellent, Son Goku! This is it! Battles aren’t interesting unless [the fighters’] true power is close to a certain extent like this.” < So according to your logic if Goku was less than 10% of Cell's power then Cell would have still been entertained? By his very statement he only finds fighting people who's strength is close to a certain extent fun. I mean how much fun do you get out of stepping on a bug? Unless you're some sadistic individual then I hope it is none.

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Re: Raging Vegeta Ssj2 (DB Super) vs Super Vegetto (DB Super

Post by LowRyder2005 » Mon Sep 07, 2015 11:21 am

Interesting discussion. Why not add some food for thought?
Firstly, regarding Vegito vs. Beerus. As usual, we have no idea if Goku was referring to Fusion, Potara, both or was deeming them unusable for reasons unconcerning the effective power of a fusion of himself and Vegeta. I'll quote what I said in a Beerus vs. Vegito thread.
With the current material at our disposal it boils down to subjective statements.

The only, very vague piece of evidence is that God Goku is a 6, Beerus is a 10 and Whis is a 15.
This would be accurately reflected by the movie: 100% Super Saiyan God Goku is 60% of 100% Beerus, who powers down to 70% and has a slight edge on SSGod Goku during the whole fight.
Therefore, Whis would be (at least? At most?) 50% stronger than Beerus.

If we agree this is Whis' maximum, I repeat, without other dei ex machina (like "oh, no, for reason X Vegito turns out to be weaker than expected" or "oh, no, Whis/Beerus is actually stronger than "10/15") even a non-God Vegito could possibly defeat Beerus and Whis with Super Saiyan 1, 2 or 3.

The only piece of evidence going against that would be Goku's statement, which, in that regard, is still not conclusive; "there's only one more thing I know to get stronger, and that'd be fusing with Vegeta... no, I don't think even that would work", can mean a plethora of things:

* It wouldn't work because Vegeta would be against fusing through dance and merging with the Potaras, therefore any kind of fusion is not an option.
* It wouldn't work because simply fusing with Vegeta would not be enough and Vegeta would be against merging with the Potaras (the only logical implication would be: Beerus > Gogeta).
* It could mean that Goku thinks Vegito is the underdog but may stand a chance, and this means automatically means "Vegito has a >0 chance of defeating Beerus", therefore "Vegito could beat Beerus".
* Goku may be wrong about something while gauging Beerus' power, his own, Vegeta's or Vegito's.
* It could mean that Goku thinks any form of Vegito wouldn't beat Beerus (perhaps the most logical, but still...).

And so on.

Even the "Beerus is the strongest character in Dragon Ball Z, so he'd be stronger than any Vegito" can be picked apart quite easily. Goku and Vegeta could be vastly stronger by the time Battle of Gods (or even Super!) takes place, it could just mean that Super Saiyan Vegito is the only one included in the contextualization of the aforementioned phrase and so on, and we have no idea how well a Vegito formed after the Buu Saga would do against Beerus.

In the end... anyone can make his own theory. Until Toriyama explicitly states this or that, conclusions on Vegito vs. Beerus/Whis are 100% fan material.

tl;dr We have and anyone should have absolutely no idea.

Anyhow, I suppose you want my super-subjective point of view on this, right? Well, I have Super Saiyan 3 Vegito at around Beerus' maximum, with Whis (150% of Beerus' power) above them. In my book a Super Saiyan God (Super Saiyan) Vegito would be overkill for both.
I'll reiterate; let me state this: the statement of "about 10%" in Super could prove Vegeta is stronger than (Z/Super) Vegito just as much as disprove the claim that Vegito couldn't beat Beerus.
Besides, are you 100% sure the Goku, or better, Vegeta didn't want a "fair" one on one fight because of their pride and thought of Fusion as cheating?

Couldn't it be:
"What about fusing with Vegeta? No, I don't think even that would work, Vegeta will never agree to fuse again".

If they really wanted to win with any means possible, why not doing the ritual another time, fusing as Super Saiyan Gods? GodGeta or God Vegito, wouldn't they have stomped Beerus in theory? See where this reasoning gets us?
To me, this could be either PIS, lazy writing or evidence that the adults (at least one between Goku and Vegeta) just don't want to use Fusion anymore to begin with.

Mind-blowing? Mind-blowingly stupid?
Ladies and gentlemen, that's Dragon Ball for you. The same guys who play rock, paper and scissors to decide who'll fight Kid Buu and who refuse to gang up on Golden Freeza (stronger than them both).

Anyway, you should understand the most of the times the foundations of your judgements are shakier than what you actually believe 'em to be. Vegito > Beerus, Beerus > Vegito, Vegeta (Super/Z) > Vegito (Super/Z), Vegito (Super/Z) > Vegeta (Super/Z), are all equally possible... the only thing that may vary is your mileage about their likelihood. :)

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Re: Raging Vegeta Ssj2 (DB Super) vs Super Vegetto (DB Super

Post by h0kuten » Mon Sep 07, 2015 12:18 pm

Hitiro wrote:
h0kuten wrote:In a story where strength is the most valued attribute, the reasonable interpretation regarding Beerus' statement is that Goku provided the most 'fun', or in other-words, was the strongest fighter up until that point. It would be a worthless statement that bears no meaning to the actual story if this wasn't the case.

Beerus was able to suppress his energy to the point where he wouldn't kill any fighter, just incapacitate them. This also means Beerus can make a clear distinction from Tenshinhan to Ultimate Gohan. So your secondary point regarding Beerus being inable to tell a difference between said fighters doesn't hold much merit.

The Fat Majin Boo enjoyed fighting Goku Ssj3 because it was fun -he was strong enough to challenge him, not because Goku Ssj3 looked weird, or behaved differently, same situation here. The examples where 'fun' is a keyword for 'strength' are nearly endless. From Perfect Cell, to Majin Boo to The Ginyu Force ect ect. In every scenario, fun is a key example for strength.
If Beerus entertainment was based just on Goku's fighting prowess he would not be entertained at all because Goku didn't offer him anything. So there must be more to it than just Goku's strength as a fighter. Hence why I made the point that it was probably Goku's personality that amused Beerus during the fight.

There is a vast difference between Tenshinhan and Ultimate Gohan. Something that would be much more noticeable to him than the difference between SSJ3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan. So there is nothing wrong with this point really.

That is the key issue here though. You say Fat Boo enjoyed fighting SSJ3 Goku because he was strong enough to challenge him. That is an entirely different situation because in this scenario Goku was not strong enough to provide Beerus with a challenge. So if anything he should have been bored. Not entertained. Hence why I pointed to Goku's personality as being a factor in how he entertained Beerus. Beerus even said "Nobody has asked me to spar before." So something unexpected like that is what entertained him. All of the examples you referenced are when characters are close in strength. In fact, Cell makes this point exactly when he says to Goku “Excellent, Son Goku! This is it! Battles aren’t interesting unless [the fighters’] true power is close to a certain extent like this.” < So according to your logic if Goku was less than 10% of Cell's power then Cell would have still been entertained? By his very statement he only finds fighting people who's strength is close to a certain extent fun. I mean how much fun do you get out of stepping on a bug? Unless you're some sadistic individual then I hope it is none.
Goku Mssj didn't offer Perfect Cell anything, yet Perfect Cell was having the time of his life. So no, it wasn't Goku's personality, and it can't be because
Goku's personality has had absolutely nothing to do with anything throughout the series.

The difference between Ultimate Gohna & Tienshinhan is in the millions, the gap between Goku & Gohan is much smaller than that. If Beerus can tell a difference
between Tienshinhan and Gohan than he can tell a difference between Goku & Ultimate Gohan-enough of a difference to say Goku provided the most fun, in other-words,
was the strongest.

Back to point 1. Goku was not strong enough to challenge Perfect Cell, yet Cell suppressed himself enough to have 'fun'. Vegeta & Kuririn + Gohan were not
strong enough to challenge the Ginyu Force, but they were there for 'fun'. Everyone wanted Vegeta for 'fun' because he waas the strongest.

So no, my logic still holds.

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Re: Raging Vegeta Ssj2 (DB Super) vs Super Vegetto (DB Super

Post by Hitiro » Mon Sep 07, 2015 3:46 pm

h0kuten wrote:Goku Mssj didn't offer Perfect Cell anything, yet Perfect Cell was having the time of his life.
That is completely incorrect because we have a direct statement from Perfect Cell saying otherwise. We also have the fact that Goku is strong enough to actually cause damage to Cell. While Cell is more powerful, Goku was still powerful enough to be considered a challenge for Cell.
h0kuten wrote:So no, it wasn't Goku's personality, and it can't be because
Goku's personality has had absolutely nothing to do with anything throughout the series.
How can you say that Goku's personality has nothing to do with anything throughout the series? It was a constant point of his rivals and opponents that Goku's personality had influences on them. Yamcha mentioned this. Tenshinhan mentioned this. Piccolo mentioned this. Vegeta mentioned this. And Vegeta also references his personality while he is fighting Pure Boo on the Kaioshin planet. I don't see how his personality doesn't have anything to do with the series. He converted 3 bad guys into good guys. By the end of BoG he even has Beerus favouring him and manages to prevent Earth's destruction.
h0kuten wrote:The difference between Ultimate Gohna & Tenshinhan is in the millions, the gap between Goku & Gohan is much smaller than that. If Beerus can tell a difference
between Tenshinhan and Gohan than he can tell a difference between Goku & Ultimate Gohan-enough of a difference to say Goku provided the most fun, in other-words,
was the strongest.
Why is it that if he can tell the difference between two characters clearly leagues apart that he can tell apart a gap much tinier? Can you discern a gap of 1 centimetre the same way you can a nanometre? No, you can't. We can see that Beerus is amused that Goku suggested they spar. So even having not fought Beerus, Goku already provided him some form of entertainment. So no. That doesn't necessarily mean he was the strongest. Look at this another way. Which would you find more entertainment in out of two characters who are pretty much exactly the same strength, or rather you're so strong that it doesn't matter, the guy who is completely boring or the guy who is upbeat and fun? I honestly would get more entertainment from the one that is upbeat and fun than the plain and boring one.
h0kuten wrote:Back to point 1. Goku was not strong enough to challenge Perfect Cell, yet Cell suppressed himself enough to have 'fun'.
There wasn't much in between Cell suppressing himself and full power compared to Beerus. Goku could at least do something against Cell. Unless you believe that Cell was several orders of magnitude greater than Goku?
h0kuten wrote:Vegeta & Kuririn + Gohan were not strong enough to challenge the Ginyu Force, but they were there for 'fun'. Everyone wanted Vegeta for 'fun' because he waas the strongest.
The estimation for these characters were fairly close too. Vegeta was already 30,000 in battle power by this point. While the Ginyu Force clearly had the advantage in power it wasn't by some ludicrous degree like we see with Beerus. So of course they can have fun with fighters that won't die if you use more than 10% of your power. Recoom and the others weren't that strong.

So no, your logic doesn't hold that well.

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Re: Raging Vegeta Ssj2 (DB Super) vs Super Vegetto (DB Super

Post by h0kuten » Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:18 pm

Completely incorrect? Cell only powered up to perhaps half his power, nothing more, probably less. He was already two steps ahead of Goku and than increases
his speed. Which makes it a completely one sided fight. Revise the Manga, Goku lands two hits, he was absolutely no match for Cell.

You are using Goku's personality as an excuse. Beerus states he had the most against Goku during their fight, not during their talk. Obviously by
providing Beerus the most 'fun' he's had since King Kai's planet is a reference to power. It was stated after a fight with Vegeta.

Beerus didn't kill Tienshinhan whom is quite possibly, not even in the millions in regarding to battle power. Ultimate Gohan is in the millions, perhaps trillions.
Obviously Beerus can discern the difference between the two otherwise he would of un-intentionally, killed Tienshinhan.

Dragonball Z has nothing to do with what 'you', or 'I' would find fun. It's a TV series that circulates around strength and everytime a strength related statement is
made, it's stated under different contextual differences, such as 'dimension', 'fun', 'toying', ect ect.

You don't have to be a challenge to someone for them to have fun, Dragonball Z makes this abundantly clear.

Piccolo tells Majin Boo to go have fun with the people on Earth. Despite the gap being tremendous (a battle power of 5 versus a battle power in the billions or trillions)
between Majin Boo & an average human. So no, you don't need to be a challenge to someone for them to have fun killing you, or just toying around for that sake.

My logic still holds.

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Re: Raging Vegeta Ssj2 (DB Super) vs Super Vegetto (DB Super

Post by Hitiro » Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:53 pm

h0kuten wrote:Completely incorrect? Cell only powered up to perhaps half his power, nothing more, probably less. He was already two steps ahead of Goku and than increases
his speed. Which makes it a completely one sided fight. Revise the Manga, Goku lands two hits, he was absolutely no match for Cell.
Cell literally says:
Strength Checker wrote:Cell:"Battles aren’t interesting unless [the fighters’] true power is close to a certain extent like this."
So I highly doubt that Cell was only using half of his power. It was probably more like 75-80% as a gap of 25% between two characters usually means they can wipe the floor between the other person. If Goku was literally 2x weaker than Cell the fight would have not gone the way it did. His statement practically says that they are close to a certain extent. If he was literally 2x stronger then that isn't close at all.
h0kuten wrote:You are using Goku's personality as an excuse. Beerus states he had the most against Goku during their fight, not during their talk. Obviously by
providing Beerus the most 'fun' he's had since King Kai's planet is a reference to power. It was stated after a fight with Vegeta.
No. Not once did Beerus state in which regard Goku provided him entertainment. All he said was that Goku did provide him with entertainment. He never said the entertainment and his fight with Goku in the same sentence. Show me where he says that Goku's fight is what entertained him. All he said was that Goku entertained him but Vegeta entertained him more.
h0kuten wrote:Beerus didn't kill Tenshinhan whom is quite possibly, not even in the millions in regarding to battle power. Ultimate Gohan is in the millions, perhaps trillions.
Obviously Beerus can discern the difference between the two otherwise he would of un-intentionally, killed Tenshinhan.
Yes, that is what I already said. My point was was that the difference between Ultimate Gohan and Goku was like nanometres compared to the difference between Tenshinhan and Ultimate Gohan who would be more like centimetres worth of difference. So how would he be able to gauge Ultimate Gohan against SSJ3 Goku? I said that he would not be able to discern the difference between two characters fairly close in power. Just like how you can't see the difference between 1 nanometre and 2 nanometres.
h0kuten wrote:Dragonball Z has nothing to do with what 'you', or 'I' would find fun. It's a TV series that circulates around strength and everytime a strength related statement is
made, it's stated under different contextual differences, such as 'dimension', 'fun', 'toying', ect ect.
If it was a TV series that circulated around strength every time then there would be no reason to have Goku be the hero all the time. It is entirely to do with what people would find fun because these characters are supposed to represent people. They would be bound by emotions and other things to make them characters. Otherwise there is no point in having different characters. Freeza obviously has fun playing with weak people because he likes to torment them. Cell enjoys a challenge because he has Saiyan DNA which gives him enjoyment in fighting tough opponents. Goku enjoys bettering himself and to always strive to be the best that he is. What reason would Beerus have in getting entertainment from Goku or Vegeta if their strengths weren't anything to sniff at? These characters have reasons why they enjoy stuff. Like people in real life. Because it is the authors will to make these characters come to life and act appropriately to their personalities.
h0kuten wrote:You don't have to be a challenge to someone for them to have fun, Dragonball Z makes this abundantly clear.
Yet apart from this instance you claim there has never been an example of a character beating down on someone weak and just having enjoyment from it apart from Freeza who has a sadistic personality anyway. Beerus is certainly not a sadistic person. He has no reason to enjoy fighting somebody he can flick with his finger and easily defeat. Yet you say he is having enjoyment for no reason other than beating down two characters who are not strong? At least in Freeza's case it makes sense.
h0kuten wrote:Piccolo tells Majin Boo to go have fun with the people on Earth. Despite the gap being tremendous (a battle power of 5 versus a battle power in the billions or trillions)
between Majin Boo & an average human. So no, you don't need to be a challenge to someone for them to have fun killing you, or just toying around for that sake.
You just basically proved my point. Unless it is in the characters nature to enjoy killing people or enjoy torturing people then there is no reason for them to have fun with weak people. Despite this you claim Beerus was having fun beating down two Saiyans, just because.

Your logic really doesn't hold because it doesn't make sense why Beerus would enjoy fighting two characters who can't offer him anything. At least with the examples of Majin Boo and Freeza we can accurately discern why they were amused picking on weaklings. They enjoyed killing and torture. They were evil. Beerus is neither evil nor likes killing and torturing people. He just does it because that is his job at the end of the day.

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Lord Frieza
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Re: Raging Vegeta Ssj2 (DB Super) vs Super Vegetto (DB Super

Post by Lord Frieza » Thu Sep 10, 2015 5:41 pm

I dont really understand whats causing the confusion here or why we are comparing Vegeta to Vegito.

Beerus didn't expect Vegeta to get such a huge boost in power and was caught off guard which leaves leaves him open to attack. After the initial shock he tests Vegeta's strength and realises he not the SSG ether but is stronger than the others so starts using nearly 10% of his power and takes down Vegeta just as easily as he did everyone else.

You cant compare him to Vegito just because he got some lucky hits in, by that logic Sorbet is stronger the SSGSS Goku.

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BlackMagick
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Re: Raging Vegeta Ssj2 (DB Super) vs Super Vegetto (DB Super

Post by BlackMagick » Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:59 am

No matter how I look at it and no matter how many theories read, I still cannot find it in me to rationalize that Vegeta (rage boost or not) could overcome Vegetto. Vegeta (Super) surpassing Vegetto (Z) might be possible, but even that is a bit of a stretch. Half of a whole will never be greater than or equal to the whole. I just think that the dialogue is being dug into so intensely that we're making an even bigger mess of the continuity and the canon vs. non-canon.

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Perfectionist-Cell
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Re: Raging Vegeta Ssj2 (DB Super) vs Super Vegetto (DB Super

Post by Perfectionist-Cell » Fri Sep 11, 2015 6:02 pm

Rage Vegeta being stronger than Super Vegeta is just non-sense.Akira is underpowering Beerus 10% is way too much 1.2% that's reasonable but 10 that makes Vegeta way stronger than any other character several times over.

Going by that 10% foolishness

If Vegeta and Goku both had a Power Level of 1.000.000 when they fused.

Potara Fusion Formula Y battle power Multiplied By X Battle power

1.000.000 x 1.000.000 = 1.000.000.000.000

Base Vegito Power level is 1 Trillion

At Ssj it is 50 Trillion since it is Multiplied by 50 when ssj for those who don't know.

Now if Vegeta made Beerus use 10% of his power the. He is around 200 trillion making him 4 times stronger than Vegito.

This is ridiculous because Beerus is more than 100 million years old.How can a rage Vegeta make him summon that much power?

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Hitiro
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Re: Raging Vegeta Ssj2 (DB Super) vs Super Vegetto (DB Super

Post by Hitiro » Sat Sep 12, 2015 2:07 pm

Perfectionist-Cell wrote:Rage Vegeta being stronger than Super Vegeta is just non-sense.Akira is underpowering Beerus 10% is way too much 1.2% that's reasonable but 10 that makes Vegeta way stronger than any other character several times over.

Going by that 10% foolishness

If Vegeta and Goku both had a Power Level of 1.000.000 when they fused.

Potara Fusion Formula Y battle power Multiplied By X Battle power

1.000.000 x 1.000.000 = 1.000.000.000.000

Base Vegito Power level is 1 Trillion

At Ssj it is 50 Trillion since it is Multiplied by 50 when ssj for those who don't know.

Now if Vegeta made Beerus use 10% of his power the. He is around 200 trillion making him 4 times stronger than Vegito.

This is ridiculous because Beerus is more than 100 million years old.How can a rage Vegeta make him summon that much power?
I don't think the guide says that it is BP x BP. What it says is Goku x Vegeta = Vegetto. Which would be a standard way of saying that Vegetto is more than the sum of his parts.

But like I pointed out, the increase with the fusion is a great deal. Going just by the statements in the story the fusion dance had to be comparable to a 4x-8x boost for SSJ Gotenks to be on par with Fat Boo. We can discern that the fusion dance between Goku and Vegeta would not have been enough against Boohan because we have a statement from Boohan himself thinking it wouldn't be enough. We also have a statement from the Rou Kaioshin stating that if Goku and Gohan fused they would have enough power in base to take out Bootenks. Going by the 25% gap rule across the series and pretending that SSJ Gotenks was nowhere near as strong as Goku made him out to be and having SSJ3 Gotenks as 25% stronger than SSJ3 Goku we'd have this as a minimum:

SSJ3 Goku: 400
SSJ3 Gotenks: 500
Evil Boo: 500
Gohan: 625
Bootenks: 1,000
Theoretical Goku + Gohan: (1 + 625(Assuming the Rou Kaioshin boost translates to base)) * Potara Boost = 1,250+
Boohan: 1125

SSJ Vegetto: ((1+1)*14.0625)*50 = 1,406.25

If we take that SSJ Gotenks was strong enough to beat Fat Boo then we get something like this:

SSJ3 Goku: 400
SSJ Gotenks: 500
SSJ3 Gotenks: 4,000
Evil Boo: 4,000
Gohan: 5,000
Bootenks: 8,000
Theoretical Goku + Gohan: (1 + 625(Assuming the Rou Kaioshin boost translates to base)) * Potara Boost = 10,000+
Boohan: 13,000

SSJ Vegetto: ((1+1)*162.5)*50 = 16,250

Also, going by the comment from Beerus that base Goku couldn't win against Freeza then the base Saiyans still aren't above 120,000,000. Using this as a guideline the most powerful Goku could be but still lose to Freeza in base would be 96,000,000. Using this we can determine that SSJ Vegetto would be between 135,000,000,000(135 billion) and 1,560,000,000,000(1 trillion 560 billion) respective of the two multipliers we got.

96 million is also not a bad number for Goku as at SSJ3 he'd be around 38 billion. Which would be decent for a Genki Dama to take out Pure Boo if we assume the Earth's population is 6 billion with average battle powers of 5 and only a portion of that going to the Genki Dama. Same with all of Goku's friends. If we also go by the latter figures then if SSJ3 Goku forced Beerus to use 1% and SSJ2 Vegeta(Enraged) was 10x stronger, making Beerus use 10%, then SSJ Vegetto would still be 4x stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta (Enraged). Likewise if Goku is truly stronger than the kids and he made Beerus use around 5% and SSJ2 Vegeta (Enraged) was 2x stronger, making Beerus use 10%, then That puts SSJ Vegetto at 20x stronger than him still. The former seems more reasonable though.

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Re: Raging Vegeta Ssj2 (DB Super) vs Super Vegetto (DB Super

Post by Blackstripe » Sat Sep 12, 2015 3:54 pm

I've suggested it before (though I wasn't the one that originally proposed this theory), but it's possible that Vegeta tapped into some latent God power. Unlike before when he raged over Trunks' death in the Cell Saga, he is now of a righteous heart. That being said, it was obviously nowhere near the level of the real thing, and seemed to fizzle out.

Yeah, I know, it's just a theory...but that's all anyone is throwing out there at this point, so I thought it begged repeating.

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