Raging Vegeta Ssj2 (DB Super) vs Super Vegetto (DB Super)

[h0kuten]

Goku dismisses the idea of using Super Vegetto but upon seeing Raging Vegeta he decided to give him a chance to fight Beerus to see how well he does.

Goku let everyone have their turn, so this is not really the main thing. But he didn't suggest any kind of fusion after Vegeta lost either, then it could mean that Goku was pretty sure that only Super Saiyan God could possibly change the outcome.

The fight progressed in order of power, with Ultimate Gohan performing last. Ultimately followed by Raging Vegeta Ssj2.

Vegeta forced Beerus to use 10% of his power.

Nobody else did.

The only comparison Beerus could think of up until that time was Goku Ssj3 -whom was the previous strongest, not Ultimate Gohan.

No evidence shows Gohan being stronger than Goku, but we have implications suggesting the opposite.

[Sayo-chan]

The fight progressed in order of power, with Ultimate Gohan performing last. Ultimately followed by Raging Vegeta Ssj2.

Vegeta forced Beerus to use 10% of his power.

Nobody else did.

The only comparison Beerus could think of up until that time was Goku Ssj3 -whom was the previous strongest, not Ultimate Gohan.

No evidence shows Gohan being stronger than Goku, but we have implications suggesting the opposite.

We have no idea what amount of power Beerus was forced to use, as not even he's really certain of it. We also have no idea what amount he used against Gohan or Goku.

[GTX]

I cannot see that vegeta who 'always' jobbing can win against anyone honestly, espescially if against main villain or goku. It's not illogical because in no time goku always in the front making any rumor about vegeta is being stronger ever like total jokes. Though you shouldn't take beerus or many antagonist in general word seriously because he only a clown that getting butthurt over a pudding. For 75 million years he is as childish and still supid as ever . You must not take any word from him seriously.

[Hitiro]

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/battle-power/list/ <--- At the bottom of the page it says X battle Power x Y Battle Power This means It's Power Level x Power Level. This also makes Vegito even stronger.

Herms, the person who translated this, provided us with info that doesn't necessarily mean BP x BP. If you check http://www.kanzenshuu.com/battle-power/databook/#seg that your url links to, it specifically says that it is depicted as closer to multiplication than simple addition. That does not mean that it has to be multiplying both their battle powers together but rather the fusion their two battle powers multiplied by something like I suggested.

Feel free to disagree but if it is that the fusion is both their battle powers multiplied together then you'll have a hard time rectifying Vegeta's power increase, Beerus level when he was only using 10% and why Goku thought Vegetto wouldn't be able to win against Beerus despite obviously having a huge amount of power. There is also the fact that Vegetto would have never needed SSJ against Boohan. That's fine if you follow the anime but in the manga he transformed into a SSJ straight away so he most likely thought it was necessary.

[h0kuten]

The fight progressed in order of power, with Ultimate Gohan performing last. Ultimately followed by Raging Vegeta Ssj2.

Vegeta forced Beerus to use 10% of his power.

Nobody else did.

The only comparison Beerus could think of up until that time was Goku Ssj3 -whom was the previous strongest, not Ultimate Gohan.

No evidence shows Gohan being stronger than Goku, but we have implications suggesting the opposite.

We have no idea what amount of power Beerus was forced to use, as not even he's really certain of it. We also have no idea what amount he used against Gohan or Goku.

Yes we do.

He used under 10%. It's in a statement. There is a also a clear distinction in strength difference between Goku & Gohan -a noticeable difference to Beerus no matter how you slice it.

You can continue to argue the 'he suppressed his power' argument, but Beerus stated Goku was the most fun he's had since Raging Vegeta, meaning the second strongest.

Beerus 10% > Raging Vegeta > Goku > Ulitmate

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/battle-power/list/ <--- At the bottom of the page it says X battle Power x Y Battle Power This means It's Power Level x Power Level. This also makes Vegito even stronger.

Herms, the person who translated this, provided us with info that doesn't necessarily mean BP x BP. If you check http://www.kanzenshuu.com/battle-power/databook/#seg that your url links to, it specifically says that it is depicted as closer to multiplication than simple addition. That does not mean that it has to be multiplying both their battle powers together but rather the fusion their two battle powers multiplied by something like I suggested.

Feel free to disagree but if it is that the fusion is both their battle powers multiplied together then you'll have a hard time rectifying Vegeta's power increase, Beerus level when he was only using 10% and why Goku thought Vegetto wouldn't be able to win against Beerus despite obviously having a huge amount of power. There is also the fact that Vegetto would have never needed SSJ against Boohan. That's fine if you follow the anime but in the manga he transformed into a SSJ straight away so he most likely thought it was necessary.

How does that make any sense? Think about it. 'Being closer to multiplication than addition'.

[Sayo-chan]

Yes we do.

He used under 10%. It's in a statement. There is a also a clear distinction in strength difference between Goku & Gohan -a noticeable difference to Beerus no matter how you slice it.

You can continue to argue the 'he suppressed his power' argument, but Beerus stated Goku was the most fun he's had since Raging Vegeta, meaning the second strongest.

Beerus 10% > Raging Vegeta > Goku > Ulitmate

Yes it is a statement, a statement that means he used under 10%. That's all it means. We have no idea what amount of power he used beyond the fact it isn't more than 10%. Fun does not equate to strength, no matter how many times you want to argue this point.

[h0kuten]

Yes we do.

He used under 10%. It's in a statement. There is a also a clear distinction in strength difference between Goku & Gohan -a noticeable difference to Beerus no matter how you slice it.

You can continue to argue the 'he suppressed his power' argument, but Beerus stated Goku was the most fun he's had since Raging Vegeta, meaning the second strongest.

Beerus 10% > Raging Vegeta > Goku > Ulitmate

Yes it is a statement, a statement that means he used under 10%. That's all it means. We have no idea what amount of power he used beyond the fact it isn't more than 10%. Fun does not equate to strength, no matter how many times you want to argue this point.

Fun always equates to strength. Beerus goes on to state multiple times that Goku SSJG is the most fun he's having.

[Sayo-chan]

Yes we do.

He used under 10%. It's in a statement. There is a also a clear distinction in strength difference between Goku & Gohan -a noticeable difference to Beerus no matter how you slice it.

You can continue to argue the 'he suppressed his power' argument, but Beerus stated Goku was the most fun he's had since Raging Vegeta, meaning the second strongest.

Beerus 10% > Raging Vegeta > Goku > Ulitmate

Yes it is a statement, a statement that means he used under 10%. That's all it means. We have no idea what amount of power he used beyond the fact it isn't more than 10%. Fun does not equate to strength, no matter how many times you want to argue this point.

Fun always equates to strength. Beerus goes on to state multiple times that Goku SSJG is the most fun he's having.

No it doesn't. What you're saying is a complete falsehood. There's no established connotation for the word fun equating to strength.

[h0kuten]

Fun always equates to strength. Beerus goes on to state multiple times that Goku SSJG is the most fun he's having.
No it doesn't. What you're saying is a complete falsehood. There's no established connotation for the word fun equating to strength.

It only has throughout the entire series.

It's impossible for you to convince me otherwise.

Let's agree to disagree.

[Sayo-chan]

Fun always equates to strength. Beerus goes on to state multiple times that Goku SSJG is the most fun he's having.
No it doesn't. What you're saying is a complete falsehood. There's no established connotation for the word fun equating to strength.

It only has throughout the entire series.

It's impossible for you to convince me otherwise.

Let's agree to disagree.

Entertainment value does not entirely refer to power and you have no way to prove "it has throughout the entire series".

I fail to see a point in debating, or why you'd want to at any point, if you're so close-minded.

[h0kuten]

Fun always equates to strength. Beerus goes on to state multiple times that Goku SSJG is the most fun he's having.
No it doesn't. What you're saying is a complete falsehood. There's no established connotation for the word fun equating to strength.

It only has throughout the entire series.

It's impossible for you to convince me otherwise.

Let's agree to disagree.

Entertainment value does not entirely refer to power and you have no way to prove "it has throughout the entire series".

I fail to see a point in debating, or why you'd want to at any point, if you're so close-minded.

Some things are obvious and have already been established as the norm in the Manga & Cartoon. Sometimes I find it pointless to bicker back and forth and reach no logical conclusion. I've noticed that the tendency of some people here is to ask questions as opposed to finding solutions.

I'm here to find solutions.

[Sayo-chan]

Fun always equates to strength.

Some things are obvious and have already been established as the norm in the Manga & Cartoon. Sometimes I find it pointless to bicker back and forth and reach no logical conclusion. I've noticed that the tendency of some people here is to ask questions as opposed to finding solutions.

I'm here to find solutions.

Finding solutions isn't providing claims without evidence. You made claims and never backed them up with anything.

[h0kuten]

Fun always equates to strength.

Some things are obvious and have already been established as the norm in the Manga & Cartoon. Sometimes I find it pointless to bicker back and forth and reach no logical conclusion. I've noticed that the tendency of some people here is to ask questions as opposed to finding solutions.

I'm here to find solutions.

Finding solutions isn't providing claims without evidence. You made claims and never backed them up with anything.

Don't need to if it's already the established norm.

Do the research yourself.

[Sayo-chan]

Don't need to if it's already the established norm.

Do the research yourself.

That's a claim. Back it up.

Do it myself? Excuse me? No, that's not how arguing works. You made a claim so you have to back it up. I'm not doing your work for you.

[Hugo Boss]

The thing is 'fun in battle' can be related to 'interesting opponent' or 'highly skilled person'. I guess that is very close to the notion that people that provide more fun in battle are probably stronger than those that don't provide the same kind of feeling.

Though, I think the dialogue seems more natural if you are not talking directly about strength. As you can see from the scene, Beerus says something like "I had more fun with Prince Vegeta than I had with that Saiyan on Kaio's planet", after Vegeta managed to land a couple of hits and Beerus powered-up to near 10% full strength, while he didn't use such effort against Goku or the others that he has been fighting on Bulma's ship.

Of course, this is just theory, but throughout the series we can see a lot of 'fun' comments coming from Freeza, Cell or Boo and almost all of them are concerning Goku's fighting ability.

[dbgtFO]

Of course, this is just theory, but throughout the series we can see a lot of 'fun' comments coming from Freeza, Cell or Boo and almost all of them are concerning Goku's fighting ability.

Which in all cases go hand in hand with his strength.
I don't really see anything wrong with the conclusion h0kuten has arrived at; it's the anime Gohan and Gotenks are not relevant in terms of strength, only Goku and Vegeta are allowed to. Ever since Kid Buu appeared it's been the Goku and Vegeta show and Goku gets to fight on par with a guy stated to be the strongest Buu and is in DB Super flat out stated to be the strongest Saiyan, while Vegeta is his number 2.
Simplified:
Super Gotenks < Gohan < Vegeta(DBS) < Gotenks-Buu < Gohan-Buu < Kid Buu = SS3 Toei Goku < Raging Vegeta < 10% Beerus.
As far as Vegeta compared to Vegetto, obviously a raging Vegetto should be much stronger than raging Vegeta, though with the added influence of Goku, it might be tougher to get in the same frame of mind.

[Sayo-chan]

Of course, this is just theory, but throughout the series we can see a lot of 'fun' comments coming from Freeza, Cell or Boo and almost all of them are concerning Goku's fighting ability.

Which in all cases go hand in hand with his strength.
I don't really see anything wrong with the conclusion h0kuten has arrived at; it's the anime Gohan and Gotenks are not relevant in terms of strength, only Goku and Vegeta are allowed to. Ever since Kid Buu appeared it's been the Goku and Vegeta show and Goku gets to fight on par with a guy stated to be the strongest Buu and is in DB Super flat out stated to be the strongest Saiyan, while Vegeta is his number 2.
Simplified:
Super Gotenks < Gohan < Vegeta(DBS) < Gotenks-Buu < Gohan-Buu < Kid Buu = SS3 Toei Goku < Raging Vegeta < 10% Beerus.
As far as Vegeta compared to Vegetto, obviously a raging Vegetto should be much stronger than raging Vegeta, though with the added influence of Goku, it might be tougher to get in the same frame of mind.

Basing entire levels of power on arbitrary semantics couldn't be any weaker of an argument, which seems to be a common trope amongst Dragon Ball fans for whatever reason.

[BlackMagick]

It's okay to conclude than Raging SSJ2 Vegeta surpassed SSJ3 Goku while taking on Beerus, but one cannot make the assumption that Vegeta became so powerful (even briefly, that he surpassed Vegetto). Throwing together that calculation of power relating Goku's fight with Beerus, Vegeta's fight with Beerus, the mention of fusion being no good, and Beerus' line about using 10% are all ultimately worthless. The reason I say that is because Beerus only mentioned that his fight with Vegeta was more fun and that he used 10% of his power, which would imply that Beerus used less power while fighting Goku, and that's all fine and dandy but most of us are overlooking something kind of important. Beerus using 10% of his power does not mean that Vegeta is equal to 10% of Beerus. All that statement and action meant was that he used 10% of his power to defeat Vegeta. For all we know, Rage Vegeta could be 1% of Beerus. All that has been established is that Rage Vegeta is definitely less than 10% of Beerus. So all of that math calculating how strong Vegetto would be in accordance to what Beerus said about what percentage of his power he used is absolutely useless. Bottom line is that Vegeta and Goku together make Vegetto; two halves make the whole. A half cannot trump the whole, so I don't think we should be doing mental gymnastics to try to fit in everything precisely when there hasn't been any clear evidence that supports the solid power rankings in DBS.

[Hitiro]

How does that make any sense? Think about it. 'Being closer to multiplication than addition'.

How doesn't it make sense? He says that it refers to it being closer to multiplication than simple addition. Multiplication doesn't necessarily mean multiplying their battle powers together. It could be their battle powers multiplied by some value. Hence, it would be a multiplication rather than simple addition.