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"Filler" as it may be, I don't directly discount it as non-essential or non-relevant. When we are shown so little in both versions, I believed it to be an important clip to point out as it was never shown during the edited ocean cast version of the saga, and may be skipped over by people watching "Marathon" mode on more recent DVD sets to the point that many people may never have even seen it.Darkprince410 wrote:
That's all filler content though, and is essentially not even suggested in any way, shape, or form in the manga. Outside of Goku being shown preparing a Genki Dama, which he used to destroy a large object thrown by Kaiou, the only aspect of their actual training we're shown is Goku being knocked away by Kaiou with a palm thrust.
Everything shown of their training together between Goku catching Bubbles to mastering the Genki Dama:
Spoiler:
Without a doubt this is true as you have described. Once the technique was mastered, the base form was always a double. Of that I am not making any claims to the contrary. In the early days of the internet, and the many years since, there has always seemed to be confusion because of Goku calling out a "Kaioken times two" in that one scene. To the point of people thinking there was a basic one and theories around it being a 1.5 times increase and so on. I was possibly not very clear in my statements, but I what I meant was that the basic learning form shown in that clip with Kaio is probably akin to a non multiplying "x1" if you will, if there were such a thing. Any use once Goku returned to earth was always a double multiplier to be sure I wanted to point out that Goku seems to have two variations of use regarding the technique. Quick, instant use bursts, and extended use "power up and maintain a short time" variants. The bursts are instant-on base double Kaiokens, like when he broke Nappa's back. The extended use for the fight with Vegeta saw Goku take a bit longer activating it, applying the multiplier, and seemingly shoring himself up for the strain it would impart. Hopefully, that explains what I was trying to say a bit better without adding any additional confusion.The base Kaiou-ken is a 2x increase, as the concept of a 2x Kaiou-ken isn't even mentioned until Goku used it part way through his battle with Vegeta in order to try and dodge Vegeta's fiery ki blast. Why Toriyama decided to have Goku call out Kaiou-ken 2x during that situation is unknown, but both prior to that and after, when Goku was just calling out "Kaiou-ken" (no number added) it was a 2x increase.
There's no indication though that this was filler with Toriyama's involvement, and filler content without Toriyama's involvement is basically meaningless. Otherwise we'd have to accept things like Goku being simultaneously far stronger and far weaker than post power-up Gohan in the Buu Saga, that Tenshinhan and the others bumped their battle powers up to over 40x in the span of a week on Kaiou's planet, and so on.Akira wrote:"Filler" as it may be, I don't directly discount it as non-essential or non-relevant. When we are shown so little in both versions, I believed it to be an important clip to point out as it was never shown during the edited ocean cast version of the saga, and may be skipped over by people watching "Marathon" mode on more recent DVD sets to the point that many people may never have even seen it.Darkprince410 wrote:
That's all filler content though, and is essentially not even suggested in any way, shape, or form in the manga. Outside of Goku being shown preparing a Genki Dama, which he used to destroy a large object thrown by Kaiou, the only aspect of their actual training we're shown is Goku being knocked away by Kaiou with a palm thrust.
Everything shown of their training together between Goku catching Bubbles to mastering the Genki Dama:
Spoiler:
Not quite, Kami expresses him still being evil but no longer to the degree of a Demon Clansmen.Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:Didn't Kami say Piccolo's evil was pretty much gone after the Raditz battle?
Nice! I still think Piccolo would be the perfect candidate for the technique. If he can improve his stamina then it's likely his healing factor and the kaioken would synergize nicely.apex_pretador wrote: ↑Tue Dec 08, 2015 11:48 am because goku feared that piccolo will become the main character.
There's also that quote of Piccolo when he's fighting Gero of amplifying his energy in "bursts". This could simply refer to the ki control that fighters from Earth use to raise and lower their power levels such as what Goku and Piccolo displayed vs Raditz or this could refer to the amplification principles of the Kaioken. When I hear "amplification" and "burst" used in the same sentence, I think of Kaioken directly.KarinSSJ wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 12:42 pm In my opinion, in the original manga it's implicit that both Tenshinhan and Piccolo learned Kaioken from Kaio-Sama.
This also explains why Piccolo was stronger than Android 20 in the Androids Saga. And also Tenshinhan being capable of stopping Cell for a while and achieving the completely outstanding feature of repelling a blast from Super Buu (Gotenks absorbed) with Kikoho.
he can sure use it now with god levels of powerblacksymbiote wrote: ↑Mon Feb 01, 2021 3:35 am Piccolo would have been too strong if he had kaioken. Imagine if he mastered it to 20x by the Buu saga while being roughly as strong as the SSJs. Buu wouldn't have been an issue.
