GT Theory: SS4 is actually SS1.

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GT Theory: SS4 is actually SS1.

Post by Bacon Skittles » Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:49 pm

Please pick apart my theory if you find any inconsistencies or can provide any official canon material that can support/contradict my theory.

For the longest time I haven't considered Super Saiyan 4 to actually be the successor of Super Saiyan 3, in a sense that SS3 is the successor to SS2. I think I've figured it out. Super Saiyan 4 is actually just Super Saiyan 1. Of course that's very simplified so let me explain.

Saiyans could never go Golden Oozaru before because they weren't Super Saiyans. Once a Saiyan has gone Super, they can become a Golden Oozaru. When a Saiyan then goes Oozaru, they go Golden. It's been pretty much established that a Golden Oozaru is literally just Super Saiyan while in the Oozaru form. But then the Golden Oozaru takes on a humanoid form, which we call Super Saiyan 4. However Super Saiyan 4 Saiyans still have the golden aurora around them, not a red one like their hair.

When a Saiyan goes Oozaru, their power multiplies times 10. However unlike Super Saiyan 2 or 3, their power does not deplete faster than those forms do. Instead it's more natural, with their power disappearing when they revert to their normal forms. Goku has certainly more or less mastered the base Super Saiyan form. When Goku is Super Saiyan 4 his power is not depleting rapidly like it would for Super Saiyan 3, which overall has a lower power multiplier than SS4.

Considering all of these things, I'm going to conclude that Super Saiyan 4 is in fact just Super Saiyan 1. Albeit in a unusual new look. Supposedly, in GT canon, Saiyans were all once Oozarus but learned to achieve human form. It's very well possible that Goku and Vegeta did the same, but created something entirely new. So theoretically, Goku could achieve a form similar to "SS4" but it's not an actual Super Saiyan form. He only knows how to achieve the form as a Super Saiyan.

Also, if true, this means that Super Saiyan 5 is actually just Super Saiyan 2 in this new humanoid form. And a Super Saiyan 6 would just be Super Saiyan 3. Broly achieves Legendary Golden Oozaru and becomes a Super Saiyan 4, but with his Legendary traits. So he's technically a Legendary Super Saiyan 4, but the form is really just Legendary Super Saiyan in the humanoid form.

Now I do think that Goku could have pushed beyond Super Saiyan 3 and created a "true" Super Saiyan 4. But the ki depletion would only have even occurred faster so using that form in a fight would have been useless. Then of course I guess that the could continue to force on new Super Saiyan transformations until he achieved a form that would deplete all of his ki instantly.

TL;DR: Super Saiyan 4 is actually the base Super Saiyan form in a new humanoid body. Super Saiyan 5 would have been Super Saiyan 2.

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Re: GT Theory: SS4 is actually SS1.

Post by ekrolo2 » Tue Oct 27, 2015 4:32 pm

Super Saiyan 4 is only named so out of convenience, I doubt Goku or the others care much about technicalities. I do like this idea, though, that the golden forms we see are just Saiyan's tapping into a fraction of the real power that's hidden away from them. But then again, I've always liked 4 and considered more or less the "Ultimate Super Saiyan" form.
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Re: GT Theory: SS4 is actually SS1.

Post by Bacon Skittles » Tue Oct 27, 2015 5:36 pm

If anything I feel Super Saiyan 4 is the "ultimate" Saiyan transformation. The user is utilizing the power of the Oozaru form, but without the size and having to rely on a full moon. Plus you combine it with the Super Saiyan transformation and your power levels are significantly higher. It could be that the red hair is a side-effect of this transformation. After all the hair color and traits are all dependent on the user. Goku, Vegeta, Gogeta, Gohan, and Broly have differences in appearances once they go Super Saiyan 4. So it's possible they have some control over their appearance to some degree.


Since Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan has been renamed Super Saiyan Blue out of convenience, I'd say Super Saiyan 4 should undergo a renaming of itself. But what would it be called? Super Saiyan Oozaru? Super Saiyan Beyond?

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Re: GT Theory: SS4 is actually SS1.

Post by Sandubadear » Tue Oct 27, 2015 6:25 pm

SSJ4 is theorized as being part of the Oozaru transformation line, not the Super Saiyan line, like:
Oozaru > Golden Oozaru (SSJ) > SSJ4

Your theory does not hold much weight because even after attaining SSJ4, Goku still goes SSJ when fighting Super 17.

I also like the theory that SSJ4 is an evolution of the Saiyans.
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Re: GT Theory: SS4 is actually SS1.

Post by successoroffate » Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:44 pm

Bacon Skittles wrote:Please pick apart my theory if you find any inconsistencies or can provide any official canon material that can support/contradict my theory.

For the longest time I haven't considered Super Saiyan 4 to actually be the successor of Super Saiyan 3, in a sense that SS3 is the successor to SS2. I think I've figured it out. Super Saiyan 4 is actually just Super Saiyan 1. Of course that's very simplified so let me explain.

Saiyans could never go Golden Oozaru before because they weren't Super Saiyans. Once a Saiyan has gone Super, they can become a Golden Oozaru. When a Saiyan then goes Oozaru, they go Golden. It's been pretty much established that a Golden Oozaru is literally just Super Saiyan while in the Oozaru form. But then the Golden Oozaru takes on a humanoid form, which we call Super Saiyan 4. However Super Saiyan 4 Saiyans still have the golden aurora around them, not a red one like their hair.

When a Saiyan goes Oozaru, their power multiplies times 10. However unlike Super Saiyan 2 or 3, their power does not deplete faster than those forms do. Instead it's more natural, with their power disappearing when they revert to their normal forms. Goku has certainly more or less mastered the base Super Saiyan form. When Goku is Super Saiyan 4 his power is not depleting rapidly like it would for Super Saiyan 3, which overall has a lower power multiplier than SS4.

Considering all of these things, I'm going to conclude that Super Saiyan 4 is in fact just Super Saiyan 1. Albeit in a unusual new look. Supposedly, in GT canon, Saiyans were all once Oozarus but learned to achieve human form. It's very well possible that Goku and Vegeta did the same, but created something entirely new. So theoretically, Goku could achieve a form similar to "SS4" but it's not an actual Super Saiyan form. He only knows how to achieve the form as a Super Saiyan.

Also, if true, this means that Super Saiyan 5 is actually just Super Saiyan 2 in this new humanoid form. And a Super Saiyan 6 would just be Super Saiyan 3. Broly achieves Legendary Golden Oozaru and becomes a Super Saiyan 4, but with his Legendary traits. So he's technically a Legendary Super Saiyan 4, but the form is really just Legendary Super Saiyan in the humanoid form.

Now I do think that Goku could have pushed beyond Super Saiyan 3 and created a "true" Super Saiyan 4. But the ki depletion would only have even occurred faster so using that form in a fight would have been useless. Then of course I guess that the could continue to force on new Super Saiyan transformations until he achieved a form that would deplete all of his ki instantly.

TL;DR: Super Saiyan 4 is actually the base Super Saiyan form in a new humanoid body. Super Saiyan 5 would have been Super Saiyan 2.
I agree. I would call SSJ 4 Just Legendary Super Saiyan instead of SSJ 1. If you take the info from DBZ, then there's more evidence to support the fact that Broly is not the Legendary Super Saiyan (Since the Golden Oozaru appears in DBZ Anime) but rather Goku since he's the first one we actually see turning Golden Oozaru. Broly of course, Can't go Golden (yet).

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Re: GT Theory: SS4 is actually SS1.

Post by Sandubadear » Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:53 pm

Image
Broly has Golden Oozaru in DB Heroes.
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Re: GT Theory: SS4 is actually SS1.

Post by successoroffate » Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:06 pm

Sandubadear wrote:Image
Broly has Golden Oozaru in DB Heroes.
Yes, but not in his movies or any other closer to canon material. The only ones are Goku and Vegeta.
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Re: GT Theory: SS4 is actually SS1.

Post by Bacon Skittles » Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:23 pm

Sandubadear wrote:SSJ4 is theorized as being part of the Oozaru transformation line, not the Super Saiyan line, like:
Oozaru > Golden Oozaru (SSJ) > SSJ4

I also like the theory that SSJ4 is an evolution of the Saiyans.

This is sort of what I'm saying. The new humanoid form that Goku takes on is the embodiment of the Oozaru form. However he's still Super Saiyan 1 due to him being one when in Oozaru form.

I'd personally like to call this form something like Ultimate Super Saiyan. It's the accumulation of the Saiyan's natural powers, Oozaru and Super Saiyan, put into a stable form. Of course there's non reason to say that a "Super Saiyan 4" can't also become a Super Saiyan God. Super Saiyan Blue 4. would be quite OP. And if my theory were to be correct, which it will most likely never be verified, then technically you could have Super Saiyan Blue 6 (actually Super Saiyan 3.) Then if you REALLY want to get wild, give Broly the Super Saiyan God form and you'll have Legendary Super Saiyan Blue 6. That's a form too outrageous that I doubt even Dragon Ball Heroes would do a Legendary Super Saiyan Blue 4 Broly.

There was a thread around here somewhere that talked about what the "true" form of the Super Saiyan is. Honestly I still like to believe that when you bring in the movie canon, LSS is in fact the true Super Saiyan form. Of course then Legendary Golden Oozaru could be called the true Super Saiyan form, but I've heard no canon info saying that the Oozaru form is the true form of the Saiyans.

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Re: GT Theory: SS4 is actually SS1.

Post by emperior » Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:25 pm

All pure-blooded Saiyans are born with a tail. Broly's was probably cut because his father feared his tremendous power, or maybe he was aware Broly would have become a Super Saiyan 4?

I don't think LSS is the true Super Saiyan form. For me, its just a transformations only completely insane Saiyans can have, and Broly probably wasn't the first Saiyan ever to achieve that form.
It could also be possible Broly once turned a Golden Oozaru, then couldn't control the SSJ4 so he became LSS, then Paragus cut his tail and so Broly could never fully achieve SSJ4, that's why he is completely insane while LSS and his eyes turn white. (this is a theory I made up on the moment)
It was also told that the original Super Saiyan couldn't control his power and so destroyed Saiyans native planet. It's possible that he couldn't control the Super Saiyan 4 form so destroyed everything. Probably the same could have happened to Goku and Vegeta had they been weaker when they achieved SS4.

I think the true Super Saiyan form is SSJ1, but seeing as its getting scrapped in favor of SSJ Blue, then I really, really hope Super will eventually give us a new Super Saiyan transformation near the end of the serie, and finally call it Ultimate Super Saiyan. It could be Goku's final tool to win a powerful enemy.
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Re: GT Theory: SS4 is actually SS1.

Post by Sandubadear » Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:30 pm

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Broly probably has a tail, but is hidden by his clothing.
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Re: GT Theory: SS4 is actually SS1.

Post by Xeztin » Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:14 pm

This is what I have considered to be True over the years.

There are actually three legends of the "Super Saiyans".

1) Begins with the first one being the Original Super Saiyan. He was supposedly a Golden Great Ape and hadn't mastered the form, (SSJ4) so he became wild and out of control. This is the legend that the Saiyans understand (different from the warning Freeza knows)

2) Bardock is the second legend we here about (in this certain order). He is the Super Saiyan legend known by Freeza and feared by Chilled. He is NOT* the Original Super Saiyan. He probably existed before or after the OSSJ, but they are two different beings all together. This legend is only a warning and nothing more. This isn't technically a legend, seeing as how the Saiyans weren't aware of Bardocks transformation, only Freezas ancestors were.

3) This one belongs to Broly, and is a different legend than the ones above. Imo, this is a certain SSJ that was only told in stories, as Vegeta states. Different from the OSSJ, in that this one had no historical records...only fables told by each other. The LSSJ form probably happens due to an increase in Power throughout the childs conception, or maybe a genetic mutation of some sort. No one really knows why Broly is a Legendary Super Saiyan, and there is no history behind it as mentioned above.

SSJ4 is not even really " Super Saiyan 4" just named out of convenience as said above, it may very well be the "TRUE" Super Saiyan. I'd like to think that Bardock was a normal SSJ, and Broly was just a genetic mutation, or some kind of Gene that's passed on that is not always Dominate, so Broly's father carried the Gene, but it wasn't Dominate. however in Broly it was, so he attained all the power from it. This Gene could have been passed down from the "Original Super Saiyan" which is why Broly was insane, or could have been passed down from some kind of rare freak mutation disorder of his ancestors. Similar to how real life Human's are sometime's born with Diseases, just imagine a Saiyan being born with one like Broly's.

Honestly, I think the Saiyan's ancestors, looked just like SSJ4 with Brown fur, and they were born this way. Over time they lost their fur from their bodies but kept the tail.
Now back on the topic of the "OSSJ", I believe he went Oozaru then went Super Saiyan in this form, creating "Golden Oozaru". Now what would happen if a "Super Saiyan" went Oozaru? He'd gain a more Humanoid Figure right? I think it is a matter of the saying "man, taming the beast inside him". the "OSSJ" never gained control over it, so he never attained what we know as "SSJ4". However if he gained control, I think automatically he would have attained a more humanoid form, which flips the script and it would be a "Super Saiyan going Oozaruu", what we know as SSJ4. It's bascially combining the "Super Saiyan" with "Oozaru", and if you fail to take control of your Primal side, then your going to act Primal and stay in Golden Oozaru, but if you gain control over your primal side, then your Human Side will take the helm, and you'll turn into SSJ4. I would have personally called it "Super Saiyan Oozaru". Now if Saiyan's used to have brown fur and black hair like SSJ4, then I could see "Super Saiyan Oozaru" being the "True Super Saiyan transformation". IF Saiyan's over time lost their fur, then they obviously are more "Human", then "primal" so maybe they could go "Super Saiyan" in their human form, rather than their "Oozaru form". And if they had a Tail, and was a Super Saiyan, then they had the option to do so, in which Goku later rediscovers.

I don't think the original Super Saiyan could access his "Super Saiyan" form in his base form, I think he had to go Oozaru, and he never gained control of it, which if he had, he'd been able to use that power in his more humanoid form. I believe Goku being able to go Super Saiyan in his human form, is just the process of evolution over the years. If we are to Believe Saiyan's were originally Oozarus, who learned to take a human form, I think a Saiyan with brown fur would be the missing link in that evolution, with the Saiyan's we know now without the fur being Goku, Vegeta, ETC.

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Re: GT Theory: SS4 is actually SS1.

Post by Xeztin » Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:46 pm

This would be my evolution theory mapped out:
It began Here, with them being pure Apes.

Eventually evolution over time gave them a more human form:
This more human form, had to ability to transform into a "Oozaru". The "Original Super Saiyan" looked like this, and could only go SSJ in his Oozaru form, which looked like this:
Later on, they lost their fur, and became the Saiyan's we know today. They can still go "Oozaru" with their tail, and gained the ability to go SSJ in their Humanoid form.
Now if they are a SSJ, then they can become a "Golden Oozaru" like their ancestors, and if they gain control, they become a "Super Saiyan 4", which probably is "True Super Saiyan". if the OSSJ would have achieved it, then he would have gained this form. If a Saiyan gives into their primal side, then they stay in their Golden Oozaru form and go into a rampage. Who know's If you go "Golden Oozaru" and give into your primal side, you might stay in that form forever, until you gain control over it.
Super Saiyan 2-3 are just variants of SSJ1 rather than different forms, so it could basically come down to a Humanoid Super Saiyan, which is what Goku achieves in the Freeza arc, or a Primal Super Saiyan, which is much stronger, and what becomes known as "Super Saiyan 4" in GT.

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Re: GT Theory: SS4 is actually SS1.

Post by Bacon Skittles » Thu Oct 29, 2015 1:29 am

emperior wrote:All pure-blooded Saiyans are born with a tail. Broly's was probably cut because his father feared his tremendous power, or maybe he was aware Broly would have become a Super Saiyan 4?.
I doubt his father would have known what Super Saiyan 4 was. Super Saiyan 4 does seem to require the user to tame the Oozaru form, which Broly achieved his SS4 through magic.

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Re: GT Theory: SS4 is actually SS1.

Post by LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta » Thu Oct 29, 2015 4:12 pm

SSJ4 "IS" SSj4...it's not oozaruu mixed with ssj,that's golden oozaruu. SSJ4 is shown to be stronger then that.

SSj3 GT Goku-owned by Bebi Vegeta

Golden oozaru goku-10x the power of ssj3 gt goku

oozaru Bebi-10x the power of bebi Vegeta

ssj4 goku-stronger then oozaru bebi

ssj4 goku>oozaruu Bebi>golden ape goku>>ssj3 goku

so to roughly put this

ssj3 gt goku-10
Bebi vegeta-20
golden ape goku-100
golden ape bebi vegeta-200
ssj4 goku-??? (Has to be above 200 because it above bebi so whatever the ssj4 multiplier is,it's over 10x)
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Re: GT Theory: SS4 is actually SS1.

Post by Xeztin » Thu Oct 29, 2015 5:13 pm

I think Golden Oozaru is ssj mixed with Oozaru. If you don't have control over the form or consciousness can you really control or use, your full power? I think SSJ4 is what happens when you gain consciousness of Golden Oozaru, and you gain control over that power, and a humanoid form is the only way to use all that power, in the best most useful way. If you mix a super Saiyan with Oozaru, it creates golden oozaru, its using super Saiyan in the oozaru form, so why cant you use oozaru in the super Saiyan form and create a humanoid figure? Which is why after you gain control over that power, you don't have to go Oozaru anymore, I'm not even sure if the moon would still turn one into a Oozaru after he attains SSJ4. SSJ4 to me is what happens when a SSJ, gains absolute control over Golden Oozaru, masters it, and puts that power in a human embodiment of the form so they can use its full potential. If he mastered Oozaru and his Primal side, couldn't he control the moon transforming him? I know we are led to believe that this is a pure Oozaru line, and that you might not even need SSJ, but if that was true, Vegeta would have gained this form, as he had control over his normal Oozaru in DBZ.Then in my opinion, you have to be a Super Saiyan to attain this form, which would mean its not purely a Oozaru line transformation. Also why did Vegeta loose his mind and grab Goku in GT, he should have had complete control. I think controlling a Golden oozaru is harder then a normal one. This is all just one of my many insane theories :D

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Re: GT Theory: SS4 is actually SS1.

Post by emperior » Fri Oct 30, 2015 9:10 am

I think it's a given that to achieve SSJ4 you must be control the Golden Oozaru, which can't be achieved if the Saiyan can't go SSJ.
Goku is able to control the Golden Oozaru thanks to Pan, while Vegeta acts like he is insane but he was one of the few Saiyans who could fully control his normal Oozaru form.

The original Super Saiyan probably didn't have a high enough power level to go SSJ in his humanoid form, or probably was from the time Saiyans still didn't have a humanoid form.
It's quite obvious though that when he went Super Saiyan he couldn't control his power and went insane, destroying Planet Saiya in the process.
Over time, evolution caused Saiyans to achieve a humanoid form (which they probably had but could never use for certain reasons) it might be because their native planet could have sort of acted like a moon, so Saiyans were Oozaru all the time but that wasn't their true form.

SSJ4 is definitely the ultimate Saiyan form, the invincible warrior as legends say.
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Re: GT Theory: SS4 is actually SS1.

Post by DragonBallLove » Fri Oct 30, 2015 4:47 pm

I agree that SSJ4 is more related to base form than to SSJ proper, but it seems to have absorbed the SSJ power in itself (hence the golden aura). I'm kind of equalling it to a "Saiyan Beyond Super Saiyan", using a paraphrase of the form name for the new base Goku after SSG ("Saiyan Beyong God"). Also, I agree than it seems a very OK version of the OSSJ legend.

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Re: GT Theory: SS4 is actually SS1.

Post by GTX » Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:01 am

Continuation of GT is not a bad option.
The question has been asked by you 10000000000 times and we have become very efficient.
I don't care about non canon stuffs like game, guide book, movie, etc
Spare the trouble because GT is CANON
Be quick and be done with it
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Re: GT Theory: SS4 is actually SS1.

Post by LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta » Sun Nov 01, 2015 8:47 am

GTX wrote:Continuation of GT is not a bad option.
Even as manga I'd go CRAZY for that. I wanna know about the legendary saiyan in space mentioned in the GT perfect files. Then again, GT is such a beautiful ending,maybe it should just remain perfect and untouched as we just expand the manga canon. We see how Goku's story ends in the adaption by Toei, now how will Toriyama do it (assuming he goes past Uub....please do that.)
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Re: GT Theory: SS4 is actually SS1.

Post by GTX » Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:42 pm

LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta wrote:
GTX wrote:Continuation of GT is not a bad option.
Even as manga I'd go CRAZY for that. I wanna know about the legendary saiyan in space mentioned in the GT perfect files. Then again, GT is such a beautiful ending,maybe it should just remain perfect and untouched as we just expand the manga canon. We see how Goku's story ends in the adaption by Toei, now how will Toriyama do it (assuming he goes past Uub....please do that.)
Probably there are still some chances after super
The question has been asked by you 10000000000 times and we have become very efficient.
I don't care about non canon stuffs like game, guide book, movie, etc
Spare the trouble because GT is CANON
Be quick and be done with it
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