Should Kid Buu > Buff Buu be added in Rumor Guide?

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Re: Should Kid Buu > Buff Buu be added in Rumor Guide?

Post by LowRyder2005 » Sun Nov 01, 2015 4:00 pm

Hitiro wrote:
LowRyder2005 wrote:Actually, as far as I know he doesn't (in the manga, at least). He only mentions that Super Buu's body is better for fighting. The one who does it is Vegeta, moments before removing the Fat Buu pod. "Will you turn back to the Fat Buu or the skinny Buu? In both cases, you'll be weaker". I just reworded it, but yeah, he specifically states that the Fat Buu is inferior to Super Buu.

Still, trying to make sense of the Daizenshuu quote, I think Fat Buu could have the "raw power" to match Super Buu but just can't access it because of some sort of psyche-lock-like (see Phoenix Wright) shenanigans. He is just "somewhat weaker" than Buff Buu, after all.
Actually Piccolo says this Boo is superior in every way.
Strength Checker wrote:Chapter: 488 (DBZ 294), P5.5-6
Trunks: “Huh!? That’s Majin Boo!?”
Goten: “He-he really has changed…”
Piccolo: “It’s not just his appearance…Everything about him is definitely greater than before…”
I guess that settles the "when does Piccolo compliment Super Buu about his power" then. Good memory. :D

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Re: Should Kid Buu > Buff Buu be added in Rumor Guide?

Post by Truhan » Sun Nov 01, 2015 4:15 pm

LowRyder, why won't you consider this? It tackles your problem, and what this topic is about to turn into...
Truhan wrote:I really think we should go the way of Power and Ki being different pros against the characters' cons. So what if Buff Buu was more poweful than Super Buu? He's bulky after all, but his Ki must have taken a hit, as if Kid Buu willingly chose to become more powerful in that filler scene, to tackle Kaioshin. I'm only basing this on a comparison to SSJ Grade II, and if we consider the mastered version of SSJ to have maximized Ki, then Kid Buu could be like it. In essence, Super Buu would be as powerful as Kid Buu, but not have the same Ki pool, which he would have to charge through anger. Here's a rundown of his absorptions, power and ki changes:

Kid Buu absorbs South Kai and turns Power on with Ki loss. He has turned into Buff Buu.
Buff Buu absorbs Dai Kai and his Power is gimped, being free to restore his Ki as Fat Buu (i.e. let go of South Kai).
After Super Buu is formed, he taps onto South Kaioshin's power through Evil Buu, while Good Buu keeps him in check.
Good Buu is removed from Super Buu, turning him into Buff Buu first, and then Kid Buu, with the latter restoring his Ki by Powering down.
To expand upon it:
Kid Buu is as powerful as Super Buu, but has more Ki, which Super Buu can charge by getting angry.
Buff Buu is more poweful than Kid Buu and Super Buu, but shares Ki amount with Super, possibly trading agility.
Super Buu is balanced, with high power and speed, having stepped up from Fat Buu, by having consumed Ki to surpass him.

Goku equals Kid Buu as a SSJ3, which uses a huge amount of Ki for power. This is why SSJ3 Goku wanted to gather more Ki.
Ultimate Gohan is more powerful than Super Buu, with questionable Ki, since we haven't seen him use any consuming attack.
SSJ3 Gotenks could be balanced enough to power up his Super Ghost Kamikaze, and he has overpowered Super Buu with Ki blasts.

---

This is a nice way to consider different strengths and weaknesses, without having to put one character above the other in all fronts.

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Re: Should Kid Buu > Buff Buu be added in Rumor Guide?

Post by Darkprince410 » Sun Nov 01, 2015 4:15 pm

(2) Q: Out of all your characters, which one is the most cool?
"A: I think it's Goku." The always pure strongest in the universe. Goku is #1 after all!

(3)" Goku fought with the revived Boo. Goku tried to have the next generation resolve this problem, but in the end he was the one who defeated Boo, the strongest in the universe, after being resurrected by receiving the life of the Dai-Kaioshin."
For the first one, there's no mention of the time frame for Goku there, so it can just as easily be referring to Goku's strength after the ten year time skip, which, given Goku's efforts against Uub, would point to him being significantly stronger than before, potentially above that of Gohan.

As for the second, the statement, given all that's said, is referring to Buu as a whole, that Ma-jin Buu in general was the strongest enemy in the universe, and that Goku eventually was the one to defeat him. It's not saying that the one Goku fought specifically was the strongest, just that Buu was, all in all, the strongest.

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Re: Should Kid Buu > Buff Buu be added in Rumor Guide?

Post by LowRyder2005 » Sun Nov 01, 2015 4:29 pm

Truhan wrote:LowRyder, why won't you consider this? It tackles your problem, and what this topic is about to turn into...
Truhan wrote:I really think we should go the way of Power and Ki being different pros against the characters' cons. So what if Buff Buu was more poweful than Super Buu? He's bulky after all, but his Ki must have taken a hit, as if Kid Buu willingly chose to become more powerful in that filler scene, to tackle Kaioshin. I'm only basing this on a comparison to SSJ Grade II, and if we consider the mastered version of SSJ to have maximized Ki, then Kid Buu could be like it. In essence, Super Buu would be as powerful as Kid Buu, but not have the same Ki pool, which he would have to charge through anger. Here's a rundown of his absorptions, power and ki changes:

Kid Buu absorbs South Kai and turns Power on with Ki loss. He has turned into Buff Buu.
Buff Buu absorbs Dai Kai and his Power is gimped, being free to restore his Ki as Fat Buu (i.e. let go of South Kai).
After Super Buu is formed, he taps onto South Kaioshin's power through Evil Buu, while Good Buu keeps him in check.
Good Buu is removed from Super Buu, turning him into Buff Buu first, and then Kid Buu, with the latter restoring his Ki by Powering down.
To expand upon it:
Kid Buu is as powerful as Super Buu, but has more Ki, which Super Buu can charge by getting angry.
Buff Buu is more poweful than Kid Buu and Super Buu, but shares Ki amount with Super, possibly trading agility.
Super Buu is balanced, with high power and speed, having stepped up from Fat Buu, by having consumed Ki to surpass him.

Goku equals Kid Buu as a SSJ3, which uses a huge amount of Ki for power. This is why SSJ3 Goku wanted to gather more Ki.
Ultimate Gohan is more powerful than Super Buu, with questionable Ki, since we haven't seen him use any consuming attack.
SSJ3 Gotenks could be balanced enough to power up his Super Ghost Kamikaze, and he has overpowered Super Buu with Ki blasts.

---

This is a nice way to consider different strengths and weaknesses, without having to put one character above the other in all fronts.
I think it's a creative and commendable approach to the problem.
Personally speaking, however, I see the terms "stronger" and "weaker", in the databooks as omnicomprensive-ish; meaning that if that was the case (namely Super Buu = Kid Buu = Buff Buu), I'd expect the databook to avoid mentioning any kind of power-related concept, referring just to appearance. There is, strictly speaking, one potential flaw though you may want to address: Buff Buu should have more ki than Super Buu, since it's made explicit in the manga.
So, either you add that Goku is wrong, or you may want to change that.

Like I said, the second quote posted is merely the interviewer overhyping Goku for being cool, not Toriyama. But yeah, it's the Daizenshuu alright. Still, Daizenshuu 4 is dated some months after the end of the manga (October '95), so they're ambiguous enough to take it to another end: namely, it could mean just that End of Z Goku is strongest, not Buu Saga Goku. We know we can't take it literally (Goku isn't always the strongest in the universe), so it could be that, just like Gohan is "always the strongest" at the end of the Cell Arc, Goku is "always the strongest" at the end of Z.

Anyway, the whole point of those phrases was to prove that we are making guesses, so I guess they kinda nailed it. :)
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Re: Should Kid Buu > Buff Buu be added in Rumor Guide?

Post by Truhan » Sun Nov 01, 2015 4:35 pm

Ok, I'll think of a work around based on this.

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Re: Should Kid Buu > Buff Buu be added in Rumor Guide?

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Sun Nov 01, 2015 6:16 pm

I never actually doubted Super Boo>Fat Boo.

I'm just trying to understand why the difference is as big as some believe. If someone powered-up that much, you'd think their overall power would be more of a focal point than their body being more powerful, or their Chi being more evil than before. The quotes only imply that Super Boo is greater than Fat Boo, which is much different than being several times stronger than Fat Boo.
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Re: Should Kid Buu > Buff Buu be added in Rumor Guide?

Post by Hitiro » Sun Nov 01, 2015 7:14 pm

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:I never actually doubted Super Boo>Fat Boo.

I'm just trying to understand why the difference is as big as some believe. If someone powered-up that much, you'd think their overall power would be more of a focal point than their body being more powerful, or their Chi being more evil than before. The quotes only imply that Super Boo is greater than Fat Boo, which is much different than being several times stronger than Fat Boo.
What Piccolo says is that this Boo is "definitely greater than before." We can simply extrapolate from his words that Evil Boo had to have gained a significant amount of power just from this line. As if we compare this line to the what he said about SSJ2 Vegeta in comparison to SSJ2 Gohan(Cell Games), yes, Vegeta is greater than SSJ2 Gohan was back then. But Piccolo only says perhaps here. Suggesting uncertainty. While we know Vegeta > Gohan because of other dialogue it can't have been by much for Piccolo to be uncertain. Yet in this scenario Piccolo clearly tells us that this Boo is "definitely" greater than before. For him to be so certain this Boo would have had to have increased in power by enough for Piccolo to be sure.

Furthermore we have things like Goku saying he could have beaten Fat Boo but couldn't have beaten Evil Boo to show that there was a discernible power difference. And also the fact that Piccolo had no qualms in sending SSJ Gotenks to fight against Fat Boo but when Fat Boo becomes Evil Boo he tries chucking them into the RoSaT straight away. And after the training it still took a SSJ3 fusion to match Evil Boo when a SSJ fusion was clearly enough to go against Fat Boo. Even if you're not an advocate of the multipliers the Daizenshuu provide it is still a noticeable strength feat. And if you are an advocate then this Boo has to be around 8x stronger, than Fat Boo for him to match SSJ3 Gotenks.

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Re: Should Kid Buu > Buff Buu be added in Rumor Guide?

Post by Truhan » Sun Nov 01, 2015 7:42 pm

I think we could draw a few charts to compare Buu's forms, because he's essentially the same character with a few different personalities, moves and power.
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Re: Should Kid Buu > Buff Buu be added in Rumor Guide?

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:40 am

Interesting enough, the Majin Boo's bio doesn't explicitly suggest South Kaioshin's absorption made Boo's power greater, while it does when mentioning Gotenks, Piccolo and Gohan. That could mean Buff Boo and Pure Boo have the same ferociousness and power, while Fat Boo is somewhat weaker than them.

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Re: Should Kid Buu > Buff Buu be added in Rumor Guide?

Post by Jeff Styles » Mon Nov 02, 2015 1:34 pm

Boohan>Bootenks>Buff Boo>Booicolo>Super Boo>>>Kid Boo>Fat Boo>Grey Boo>>Good Boo

Only South Kaioshin power up Kid Boo.Dai Kaioshin restricted Boo with his gentle heart.

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Re: Should Kid Buu > Buff Buu be added in Rumor Guide?

Post by smiley » Mon Nov 02, 2015 3:10 pm

LowRyder2005 wrote: The second one is not from Toriyama, it's a comment added by the interviewer in an interview with Toriyama
I don't think the comment is by the interviewer (it's not by Toriyama either), it was a side comment from people who put the Daizenshuu together; making it as legitimate as any other information from the Daizenshuu. But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it is the interviewer. Someone can clarify.
Darkprince410 wrote: As for the second, the statement, given all that's said, is referring to Buu as a whole, that Ma-jin Buu in general was the strongest enemy in the universe, and that Goku eventually was the one to defeat him. It's not saying that the one Goku fought specifically was the strongest, just that Buu was, all in all, the strongest.
This isn't the "strongest enemy" quote; it's the "strongest in the universe" quote. But nevertheless, I assume you would still argue that it refers to Buu in general.

I find that to be an extremely unlikely interpretation, because it refers to Buu at the time of his defeat; and it makes no sense to make reference to power that Buu no longer possessed, and would need to merge with others in order to achieve it. That would be like referring to Vegeta as "the strongest in the universe" because he is the strongest when he fuses with Goku.

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Re: Should Kid Buu > Buff Buu be added in Rumor Guide?

Post by Darkprince410 » Mon Nov 02, 2015 3:32 pm

smiley wrote:
I find that to be an extremely unlikely interpretation, because it refers to Buu at the time of his defeat; and it makes no sense to make reference to power that Buu no longer possessed, and would need to merge with others in order to achieve it. That would be like referring to Vegeta as "the strongest in the universe" because he is the strongest when he fuses with Goku.
If you read the context of the quote, there's reference to Goku tried having the younger generation do the fighting, but in the end, he was the one that ended up defeating him. Since they never tried against Pure Buu (being dead and all), that would point toward it talking about Buu in general, and not a specific form. Likewise, it speaks of the "revived" Buu, which is in reference to him being revived from his pod at the beginning of the Buu Saga, which again, points to Buu in general, and not a specific form.

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Re: Should Kid Buu > Buff Buu be added in Rumor Guide?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Mon Nov 02, 2015 4:34 pm

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:I never actually doubted Super Boo>Fat Boo.

I'm just trying to understand why the difference is as big as some believe. If someone powered-up that much, you'd think their overall power would be more of a focal point than their body being more powerful, or their Chi being more evil than before. The quotes only imply that Super Boo is greater than Fat Boo, which is much different than being several times stronger than Fat Boo.
Goku & Piccolo were confident that SS Gotenks would be strong enough to kill Fat Boo without getting into the RoSaT, but they should still do some training outside just in case, and SS3 Gotenks was at around the same level as Evil Boo. Unless you think that Goku & Piccolo were, somehow, completely wrong, Evil Boo should be around 8 times stronger than Fat Boo, if Fat Boo wasn't much stronger than SS Gotenks.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Should Kid Buu > Buff Buu be added in Rumor Guide?

Post by jonny.kakadeh » Mon Nov 02, 2015 5:25 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:I never actually doubted Super Boo>Fat Boo.

I'm just trying to understand why the difference is as big as some believe. If someone powered-up that much, you'd think their overall power would be more of a focal point than their body being more powerful, or their Chi being more evil than before. The quotes only imply that Super Boo is greater than Fat Boo, which is much different than being several times stronger than Fat Boo.
Goku & Piccolo were confident that SS Gotenks would be strong enough to kill Fat Boo without getting into the RoSaT, but they should still do some training outside just in case, and SS3 Gotenks was at around the same level as Evil Boo. Unless you think that Goku & Piccolo were, somehow, completely wrong, Evil Boo should be around 8 times stronger than Fat Boo, if Fat Boo wasn't much stronger than SS Gotenks.
Piccolo wasnt at all confident(where did you get that from?). and goku was just buying time and knows little about fusion other than ''when fused a whole new being is formed''. The guy actually thought gotenks stood a chance against super buu..

Thats why the mentioning of it being a risk and the suggested training.

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Re: Should Kid Buu > Buff Buu be added in Rumor Guide?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Mon Nov 02, 2015 5:55 pm

jonny.kakadeh wrote:Piccolo wasnt at all confident(where did you get that from?). and goku was just buying time and knows little about fusion other than ''when fused a whole new being is formed''. The guy actually thought gotenks stood a chance against super buu..

Thats why the mentioning of it being a risk and the suggested training.
Piccolo didn't get the kids inside the RoSaT until Evil Boo was formed, which shows that he is confident that SS Gotenks should be strong enough. Goku doesn't know little about Fusion, he has seen how it works, and knows what kind of power it grants, plus, he was sure that SS Gotenks would have been strong enough to kill Fat Boo. As for Piccolo thinking that base Gotenks could beat Evil Boo, that was a set-up for a gag.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Should Kid Buu > Buff Buu be added in Rumor Guide?

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Mon Nov 02, 2015 5:58 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:I never actually doubted Super Boo>Fat Boo.

I'm just trying to understand why the difference is as big as some believe. If someone powered-up that much, you'd think their overall power would be more of a focal point than their body being more powerful, or their Chi being more evil than before. The quotes only imply that Super Boo is greater than Fat Boo, which is much different than being several times stronger than Fat Boo.
Goku & Piccolo were confident that SS Gotenks would be strong enough to kill Fat Boo without getting into the RoSaT, but they should still do some training outside just in case, and SS3 Gotenks was at around the same level as Evil Boo. Unless you think that Goku & Piccolo were, somehow, completely wrong, Evil Boo should be around 8 times stronger than Fat Boo, if Fat Boo wasn't much stronger than SS Gotenks.
I don't see why Boo's better body and evil Chi is the main focus for someone who powered-up that much. Whenever someone in the series obtained a huge power-up, their increase in power became the main focus. Piccolo telling Krillin about Boo's body being better for battle and being more evil took precedence over him getting 8x more powerful than before. Piccolo's later statement about "everything" being greater does not imply an 8x increase. All it means is Super Boo is greater than Fat Boo.

Piccolo is not infallible by any means. He only decided to send the kids into the rosat when Boo found them on the lookout.

Goku's apparently an expert on Fusion, even though his understanding of what's needed (guys being fairly close) is plain wrong.
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Re: Should Kid Buu > Buff Buu be added in Rumor Guide?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Mon Nov 02, 2015 6:06 pm

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:Piccolo's later statement about "everything" being greater does not imply an 8x increase.
I'm not saying it implies this, but it doesn't contradict it in any way. What implies this is Goku's & Piccolo's prediction of the gap between SS Gotenks & Fat Boo along with the gap between SS3 Gotenks & Evil Boo, plus the SEG multipliers.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Should Kid Buu > Buff Buu be added in Rumor Guide?

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Mon Nov 02, 2015 6:09 pm

It's also possible Evil Boo wasn't displaying his full power upon first forming. That's the impression I got anyway.

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Re: Should Kid Buu > Buff Buu be added in Rumor Guide?

Post by jonny.kakadeh » Mon Nov 02, 2015 6:32 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
jonny.kakadeh wrote:Piccolo wasnt at all confident(where did you get that from?). and goku was just buying time and knows little about fusion other than ''when fused a whole new being is formed''. The guy actually thought gotenks stood a chance against super buu..

Thats why the mentioning of it being a risk and the suggested training.
Piccolo didn't get the kids inside the RoSaT until Evil Boo was formed, which shows that he is confident that SS Gotenks should be strong enough. Goku doesn't know little about Fusion, he has seen how it works, and knows what kind of power it grants, plus, he was sure that SS Gotenks would have been strong enough to kill Fat Boo. As for Piccolo thinking that base Gotenks could beat Evil Boo, that was a set-up for a gag.
Did piccolo get the time to before? (remember they had just unfused from ssj fusion) it seemed like that was the plan anyways unless you think theres other ways of getting any significant improvement in 1 day!

Goku knows little having not done it himself; goku cant assess gotenks strength without knowing the factors of fusion(the increase might be different depending on species for example), which he cant he cant know unless hes seen others do it or gone through it himself(theres a reason the manga gives us this statement of him having no one to fuse with) , so at the end of the day its a guess. which is why its a risk...

And I was talking about goku thinking they stood a chance against super..when super buus ki vanished he thought gotenks might have been the one to take him out, also when buu stepped out the RoSaT he wondered why he couldnt feel the kids ki's(knowing both strenghs, obviously gotenks should be dead), Its clear from those scenes he believed they stood a chance.

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Re: Should Kid Buu > Buff Buu be added in Rumor Guide?

Post by Darkprince410 » Mon Nov 02, 2015 7:23 pm

Did piccolo get the time to before? (remember they had just unfused from ssj fusion) it seemed like that was the plan anyways unless you think theres other ways of getting any significant improvement in 1 day!
Goku had said there'd be no need for them to do it before, as they'd be powerful enough on their own without it, and there was ample time between then and Evil Buu's formation to have them enter if such was his intention. Piccolo's statement about them training for a day was after they came back to the Lookout following them trying to take Buu out in their base form, not after their Ssj fusion attempt, and statement on the matter wasn't that he expected them to get drastically stronger in one day, but that if they get even just a little bit stronger, then the net result will be much more pronounced with the fusion.
Gotenks: “I got the tar beaten out of me…”
Piccolo: “Alright, your fight with Majin Boo is 1 day from now! Until then, train as much as you can! If you get even a little bit stronger, it will be more effective when you perform Fusion. Got that, you miserable little punks?!”
So he had all that time between their attempt in base form to Evil Buu's appearance to have them go into the Room of Spirit and Time if he had intended them to do so, but instead, his intentions seemed to be to just have them train outside, for even a slight strength increase.

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