Gotenks's strength

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Bacon Skittles
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Gotenks's strength

Post by Bacon Skittles » Mon Nov 02, 2015 11:06 pm

I've heard that Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku, which this could be due to being half-Saiyan. However how strong is Gotenks in his various forms when compared to other characters?

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Post by Jeff Styles » Mon Nov 02, 2015 11:31 pm

SSJ3 Gotenks~Super Boo>>SSJ Gotenks(post ROSAT)>>Base Gotenks(post ROSAT)>SSj Gotenks(pre ROSAT)~SSJ3 Goku~Kid Boo>Fat Boo

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Re: Gotenks's strength

Post by fadeddreams5 » Mon Nov 02, 2015 11:59 pm

I don't believe Base Gotenks (Post-ROSAT) and SSJ Gotenk (Pre-ROSAT) are stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

And a base form cannot be stronger than the SSJ version of the character, no matter how much training is put in. Well, unless this is GT.
Last edited by fadeddreams5 on Tue Nov 03, 2015 12:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Gotenks's strength

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Tue Nov 03, 2015 12:01 am

Gotenks as a regular Super Saiyan is stronger than Goku, by the latter's own admission.

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Re: Gotenks's strength

Post by fadeddreams5 » Tue Nov 03, 2015 12:06 am

He never even saw Gotenks (pre-ROSAT), IIRC. The only comment I remember from Goku was in regards to the SSJ3 version of the character.
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Re: Gotenks's strength

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Tue Nov 03, 2015 12:07 am

And? Goku still said Gotenks would be stronger after he felt Goten and Trunks' full power. Multiple times in fact.

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Re: Gotenks's strength

Post by fadeddreams5 » Tue Nov 03, 2015 12:11 am

He was making an assumption.

Not to mention, he also said he couldn't beat Fat Buu as a SSJ3, only to later imply he could.
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Re: Gotenks's strength

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Tue Nov 03, 2015 12:12 am

Why should it be an assumption? Is a calculator making an assumption when you plug two numbers into it?

I do not interpret Goku saying he can't beat Fat Boo as him lying, only as him being unsure of Boo's strength.

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Re: Gotenks's strength

Post by Darkprince410 » Tue Nov 03, 2015 12:37 am

fadeddreams5 wrote:I don't believe Base Gotenks (Post-ROSAT) and SSJ Gotenk (Pre-ROSAT) are stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

And a base form cannot be stronger than the SSJ version of the character, no matter how much training is put in. Well, unless this is GT.
By Piccolo's own statements on the matter, it is heavily implied that Gotenks did somehow become stronger in his base form, post Room, than his Ssj form was before the boy entered the Room.

When faced with Evil Buu's formation, Piccolo outright said that Ssj Gotenks stands no chance against him.
Chapter: 487 (DBZ 293), P13.4-5
Context: after evil Boo shows up and demands to fight Gotenks
Piccolo: “Go hit Trunks and Goten to wake them up, and take them into the Room of Spirit and Time…! Even in just 1 hour, they’ll be able to do 15 days worth of training.”
Kuririn: “Heh!? If we do it now…”
Piccolo: “Can’t you tell…?! As they are now, even if they perform Fusion they can’t win, no doubt about it…! Tell them that if they don’t want to die while they’re still just little brats, then they should train as much as they can…!”
Later, when the boys fuse within the Room, Piccolo makes a comment implying that they may just stand a chance, with this being well before he even learned they could transform after fusing.
Chapter: 489 (DBZ 295), P11.5
Context: seeing Gotenks after he’d trained in the Room of Spirit and Time
Piccolo: “He-he really is different…! He really has greatly powered up…! Th-this just might…!”
Even though he comments right after that they may be doomed when Gotenks' attack didn't even faze Buu, for Piccolo to even suggest that Gotenks now stood a chance, when before he couldn't, indicates that he feels base Gotenks is the stronger. His comment about them "being doomed" could simply be an indicator of Buu being just that much more powerful than he thought, and not Gotenks' not being that strong.

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Re: Gotenks's strength

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Tue Nov 03, 2015 12:41 am

It's interesting Piccolo only questions Gotenks' power and feels the need to use the Room of Spirit and Time when Evil Boo is around, not when Fat Boo is. Isn't that enough to show Gotenks was stronger than Fat Boo? That and Goku's own statements? What suggests otherwise (besides the Daizenshuu which does NOT specify any specific forms)?

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Re: Gotenks's strength

Post by Speedster » Tue Nov 03, 2015 12:58 am

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:And? Goku still said Gotenks would be stronger after he felt Goten and Trunks' full power. Multiple times in fact.
And? He just overestimated. He said that himself never fused with anybody beforehand. Like Freeza “underestimated” how powerful would become after 4 months of training because he never trained before. Remember the power level of 1.3 million? OR it was just a retcon. Clear as day that Toriyama either retconned the previously touted overpowered fusion of Goten and Trunks or more logically increased the power of SSJ3 Goku due to plot demands in the end. Of course we can't know for sure what went through his mind but anyway this debate is only concerning the manga canon. In the Anime canon of Toei Animation (Dragonball Kai and Dragonbal Super) SSJ3 Goku is stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks and on par with Mystic Gohan. We know this due to the fight of SSJ3 Goku with Buutenks which was a filler scene that REMAINED in DB Kai and Dragonball Super is the continuation of Dragonball Kai (see for example "filler" character Gregory).

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Re: Gotenks's strength

Post by Kaboom » Tue Nov 03, 2015 1:21 am

Here's everything I can remember on the topic of Gotenks' strength.

Goku predicts that Gotenks would be strong enough to take on Fat Boo, and presumably will be stronger than himself. However, that latter point was based on the false pretense that Goku himself couldn't defeat Fat Boo, when he later reveals that he could have all along. Furthermore, while Gotenks gets a good amount of generic compliments on his strength, there's a specific lack of comparing him to anyone else. It's all "wow, so strong" and "really impressive," and what not, but no definite "he's already stronger than Boo," or "his ki is as strong as Goku" or anything like that.

Daizenshuu #7's character bio for Gotenks notes that he "leveled up" and "surpassed Vegeta and the others" from his training in the Room of Spirit and Time. So combine that with the lack of fulfillment of everyone's expectations, and Gotenks very well may have been somewhat of a "work in progress" before using the RoSaT, and not been up to the task of facing Boo yet. AFTER his training, though, is a different story. If he wasn't a match for Fat Boo in Super Saiyan before, he almost certainly was now. Some may believe that he'd advanced so much he had surpassed his past Super Saiyan self in just his normal form, but that's quite excessive and not necessarily the case.

What seemed to make the most difference was his newly-gained Super Saiyan 3. When he's in that form, he finally gets some more definitive statements about how strong he is compared to others. He calls himself the strongest in the universe, and Piccolo says Boo has never fought anyone as strong as him. This is of course Evil Boo, whom Gotenks fights fairly evenly but Goku claims in no uncertain terms later is too strong for him or Vegeta to even try fighting without being killed.

So the way the manga and guidebooks lay things out, the only real definite bits are that Gotenks is stronger than merely "Goten + Trunks," surpassed Vegeta and an unspecified group of "others" after training in the Room of Spirit and Time, and is self-labeled as the strongest in the universe as a Super Saiyan 3.
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Re: Gotenks's strength

Post by Darkprince410 » Tue Nov 03, 2015 1:40 am

Speedster wrote: In the Anime canon of Toei Animation (Dragonball Kai and Dragonbal Super) SSJ3 Goku is stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks and on par with Mystic Gohan. We know this due to the fight of SSJ3 Goku with Buutenks which was a filler scene that REMAINED in DB Kai and Dragonball Super is the continuation of Dragonball Kai (see for example "filler" character Gregory).
Except even in Kai, you have Goku outright saying he stands absolutely no chance against the same Buu that Gotenks fought evenly against and Gohan effortlessly throttled. It's just Toei being contradictory to itself, as always. That doesn't mean a single moment that Toriyama intended or pushed Goku's strength to be above Gohan or the boys by the end of the Buu Saga.

Besides, unlike Freeza's case, where Freeza had literally no frame of reference for how strong he'd get, given that he's never trained before in his life, Goku has experience with the Fusion Dance. Even though he's not performed it himself, he has witnessed it being performed, so he'd have a frame of reference to how much stronger the boys would be if they fused. Besides, at no point, following their first fusion as Super Saiya-jin, does Piccolo suggest that Goku was wrong about his estimates. When Gotenks flew off to fight Fat Buu as a Super Saiya-jin, Piccolo's only fear was they had a minute left in their fusion. Nothing about not being strong enough, just that they had a minute left.

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Re: Gotenks's strength

Post by dbzfan7 » Tue Nov 03, 2015 2:24 am

I don't buy Base Gotenks (Post ROSAT)> SSJ Gotenks (Pre) as that makes SSJ Goten/Trunks>Base Goten/Trunks
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!

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Re: Gotenks's strength

Post by LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta » Tue Nov 03, 2015 7:24 am

Bacon Skittles wrote:I've heard that Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku, which this could be due to being half-Saiyan. However how strong is Gotenks in his various forms when compared to other characters?
SSj3 Gotenks is above super buu,but so is Goku. Goku fought kid buu and Goku said gohan<kid buu. so goku>kid buu>gohan>gotenks>super buu=fat buu>evil buu>mr buu.

Plus goku can handle ssj3 with ease,gotenks cant hold it for long.
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Re: Gotenks's strength

Post by rereboy » Tue Nov 03, 2015 7:42 am

fadeddreams5 wrote:He never even saw Gotenks (pre-ROSAT), IIRC. The only comment I remember from Goku was in regards to the SSJ3 version of the character.
Goku fully expected Gotenks to beat Fat Buu but he never expected Gotenks to reach SSJ3, so, logically, Goku expected SSJ Gotenks to be either pretty much as strong as himself (because at least that level of power would be required to beat Fat Buu since Goku later on said that he could have managed it with his SSJ3) or stronger.

Nothing indicates that SSJ Gotenks disappointed in terms of power, so Goku's predictions should be accurate and SSJ Gotenks should be considered pretty much as strong as SSJ3 Goku or even stronger. And that makes SSJ3 Gotenks much stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

Compared to Super Buu, SSJ3 Gotenks is either as strong as him, or slightly stronger, going by their fight.

Compared to Ultimate Gohan, SSJ3 Gotenks is significantly weaker and would have taken a beating as bad or worse than Super Buu if he fought Gohan due to not having regeneration.

Compared to Vegeta, since Vegeta is pretty much equal to Goku only without the SSJ3 transformation, it's pretty much the same as comparing him to SSJ2 Goku.

Compared to Piccolo, since Piccolo is weaker than any buu saga SSJ1 Saiyan, it's the same as comparing him to someone very significantly weaker than SSJ1 Goku.
Darkprince410 wrote:
By Piccolo's own statements on the matter, it is heavily implied that Gotenks did somehow become stronger in his base form, post Room, than his Ssj form was before the boy entered the Room.
Those statements are from a very a nervous Piccolo and exist to prep a gag that comes into fruition immediately after. Taking it seriously is very doubtful.

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Re: Gotenks's strength

Post by LightBing » Tue Nov 03, 2015 8:25 am

I have SSJ Gotenks (Pre) weaker than SSJ3 Goku. I agree with the opinion of many of you, Goku made an estimation. If you read these following quotes, you his certainty, initially, turn into a gamble. He wasn't sure of all the power the kids possessed.
Post RoSaT, SSJ Gotenks is superior to SSJ3 Goku. His base form shouldn't have surpassed his previous Super Saiyan transformation. I see it as the set up for Piccolo's face-palm gag.

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Re: Gotenks's strength

Post by LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta » Tue Nov 03, 2015 8:54 am

rereboy wrote:
fadeddreams5 wrote:He never even saw Gotenks (pre-ROSAT), IIRC. The only comment I remember from Goku was in regards to the SSJ3 version of the character.
Goku fully expected Gotenks to beat Fat Buu but he never expected Gotenks to reach SSJ3, so, logically, Goku expected SSJ Gotenks to be either pretty much as strong as himself (because at least that level of power would be required to beat Fat Buu since Goku later on said that he could have managed it with his SSJ3) or stronger.

Nothing indicates that SSJ Gotenks disappointed in terms of power, so Goku's predictions should be accurate and SSJ Gotenks should be considered pretty much as strong as SSJ3 Goku or even stronger. And that makes SSJ3 Gotenks much stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

Compared to Super Buu, SSJ3 Gotenks is either as strong as him, or slightly stronger, going by their fight.

Compared to Ultimate Gohan, SSJ3 Gotenks is significantly weaker and would have taken a beating as bad or worse than Super Buu if he fought Gohan due to not having regeneration.

Compared to Vegeta, since Vegeta is pretty much equal to Goku only without the SSJ3 transformation, it's pretty much the same as comparing him to SSJ2 Goku.

Compared to Piccolo, since Piccolo is weaker than any buu saga SSJ1 Saiyan, it's the same as comparing him to someone very significantly weaker than SSJ1 Goku.
Darkprince410 wrote:
By Piccolo's own statements on the matter, it is heavily implied that Gotenks did somehow become stronger in his base form, post Room, than his Ssj form was before the boy entered the Room.
Those statements are from a very a nervous Piccolo and exist to prep a gag that comes into fruition immediately after. Taking it seriously is very doubtful.

ssj3 gotenks is clearly above super buu,if he had 10 more seconds in ssj3 he would have won,and he wasn't even go all out until the last 10 seconds of ssj3. And buu couldn't fight ssj1 or 3 without healing. Buu is over touted.
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Re: Gotenks's strength

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Tue Nov 03, 2015 9:27 am

Speedster wrote:And? He just overestimated.
Conjecture.
Speedster wrote:He said that himself never fused with anybody beforehand.
And...?
Speedster wrote:Clear as day that Toriyama either retconned the previously touted overpowered fusion of Goten and Trunks or more logically increased the power of SSJ3 Goku due to plot demands in the end.

No, not necessarily.
Speedster wrote:In the Anime canon of Toei Animation (Dragonball Kai and Dragonbal Super) SSJ3 Goku is stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks and on par with Mystic Gohan. We know this due to the fight of SSJ3 Goku with Buutenks which was a filler scene that REMAINED in DB Kai and Dragonball Super is the continuation of Dragonball Kai (see for example "filler" character Gregory).
So in other words, not in the manga? Okay.
LightBing wrote:If you read these following quotes, you his certainty, initially, turn into a gamble.
The gamble is two immature little kids learning a technique that has to be specific to the point of lining up their fingers perfectly in three days, not because of fusion's power. This is evident by Piccolo being the one who calls it a gamble first; Piccolo doesn't know how powerful fusion is, he only has Goku's word to go off of, he does however know that fusion is a difficult technique to learn, and that they have a short time-frame to learn it.

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Re: Gotenks's strength

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Nov 03, 2015 9:48 am

Goku said that he wasn't strong enough to kill Fat Boo, and predicted that SS Gotenks would have been stronger than him & Fat Boo, and that he didn't need to train inside the Room of Spirit and Time. We later learn that Goku was lying about his power, and that he could have killed Fat Boo if he wanted to, but he doesn't say anything about Gotenks, so SS Gotenks (pre-RoSaT) may or may not be stronger than SS3 Goku.

After SS Gotenks was formed, Piccolo seemed confident of Gotenks' power, but he still wanted them to train outside for a day as much as possible, because the small gains for Goten & Trunks would become big gains for Gotenks. No one knew Fat Boo's true power for sure however, since his power would rise when he was getting angry (like Goku said, his power was like a lie), and since Gotenks never fought him, SS Gotenks (pre-RoSaT) may or may not be stronger than Fat Boo.

In both cases, even if SS Gotenks (pre-RoSaT) is weaker than SS3 Goku & Fat Boo, he is still definitely stronger than any of the Super Saiyan 2s.

The fact that Goku & Piccolo believed that SS Gotenks may have a chance against Fat Boo, who was supposed to be stronger than SS3 Goku, means that Fusion doesn't just add the 2 users' powers, but it makes them even stronger. So, Gotenks' battle power isn't just Goten's battle power + Trunks' battle power.

When Evil Boo appeared, Piccolo believed that Gotenks would definitely not stand a chance now, and placed the kids inside the RoSaT.

Gotenks became much more powerful inside the RoSaT, to the point that Piccolo thought for a moment that he may stand a chance against Evil Boo in his base form, which would make base Gotenks (post-RoSaT) stronger than SS Gotenks (pre-RoSaT). However, that was a set-up for a gag, so it doesn't have to be taken seriously, not to mention that it turned out that Piccolo was far from being correct, since not even SS Gotenks (post-RoSaT) was strong enough to beat Evil Boo.

SS3 Gotenks was said to be at least as strong as Evil Boo, he fought evenly with Evil Boo, and it appears that he would have killed Boo if his time hadn't ended. So, SS3 Gotenks is probably stronger than Evil Boo.

Goku told to Vegeta that together, they didn't stand a chance against Evil Boo unless they were to use Fusion or the Potara, which means that SS3 Goku & SS2 Vegeta are weaker than Evil Boo, meaning that SS3 Gotenks is much stronger than SS3 Goku.

Ultimate Gohan was shown to be much stronger than Evil Boo, which would make him stronger than SS3 Gotenks as well.


To sum up, Gotenks' battle power isn't just Goten's battle power + Trunks' battle power, SS Gotenks (pre & post) is much stronger than SS2 Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan & he may or may not be stronger than Fat Boo & SS3 Goku, and SS3 Gotenks is much stronger than SS3 Goku, probably stronger than Evil Boo, and weaker than U. Gohan.

Personally, I believe that SS Gotenks (pre) would have killed Fat Boo if they were to fight, and that he was stronger than SS3 Goku. I also believe that SS3 Gotenks would have killed Evil Boo if he had a few more seconds.
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