Gotenks's strength

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Re: Gotenks's strength

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Nov 03, 2015 5:02 pm

fadeddreams5 wrote:Goku's not even good at math... he's not that clever.
I'm not saying that he sat down and literally did math, but I believe he definitely went "These guys became that much stronger, so a Fusion between the kids who are this strong should be about this strong, I think". He knew how amazing Fusion was already and what kind of power it gave, and he wanted to see the kids' full power in order to have an estimation about SS Gotenks' power. He wasn't pulling things from his ass, he gathered data, and came to a conclusion.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Gotenks's strength

Post by Blade » Tue Nov 03, 2015 5:17 pm

I think there's good, observable evidence that in both the JSAT Special and Battle of Gods, even prior to the Super Saiyan God ritual, that Goku was stronger than Gotenks.

Whether that makes sense or not is another matter. By every manner of in-Universe logic and guidebook multiplier, Gotenks should have been far, far more powerful than Goku in the Buu arc. Admittedly, this wasn't helped by Goku's Anime-only fight with Buutenks as a Super Saiyan 3, but that is overlooked by many who preference the flow of events in the Manga.
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Re: Gotenks's strength

Post by khalildh » Tue Nov 03, 2015 5:25 pm

Everyone always overlooks the fact that when Goku told Super Boo he was going to die if they fought, he was not planning on using Super Saiyan 3. In order to protect Vegeta's Saiyan pride, Goku was going to try and fight Boo using Super Saiyan 2. You all have to realize that Goku's Super Saiyan 3 was definitely the strongest at the end of the Saga, it is literally the only way the Boo Saga narrative makes any sense.

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Re: Gotenks's strength

Post by Blade » Tue Nov 03, 2015 5:27 pm

khalildh wrote:it is literally the only way the Boo Saga narrative makes any sense.
It's a plainly flawed narrative. It is debated over more than any arc in Dragonball.
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Re: Gotenks's strength

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Tue Nov 03, 2015 5:37 pm

khalildh wrote:Everyone always overlooks the fact that when Goku told Super Boo he was going to die if they fought, he was not planning on using Super Saiyan 3. In order to protect Vegeta's Saiyan pride, Goku was going to try and fight Boo using Super Saiyan 2. You all have to realize that Goku's Super Saiyan 3 was definitely the strongest at the end of the Saga, it is literally the only way the Boo Saga narrative makes any sense.
How do we know he was only planning on using Super Saiyan 2? What reason is there to protect Vegeta's pride at this point? Vegeta knew he hid his Super Saiyan 3 from him, so there was nothing to even lie about at this point.

Might as well say he only planned on using Super Saiyan since that's the form he actually uses.
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Re: Gotenks's strength

Post by Darkprince410 » Tue Nov 03, 2015 5:42 pm

khalildh wrote:Everyone always overlooks the fact that when Goku told Super Boo he was going to die if they fought, he was not planning on using Super Saiyan 3. In order to protect Vegeta's Saiyan pride, Goku was going to try and fight Boo using Super Saiyan 2. You all have to realize that Goku's Super Saiyan 3 was definitely the strongest at the end of the Saga, it is literally the only way the Boo Saga narrative makes any sense.
Why would he not be planning on using it? Vegeta's already aware at the time that Goku had lied to him earlier when the two fought and saw that Goku had Super Saiya-jin 3, so there's no reason that he'd continue not using it just to try and spare Vegeta. If anything, Vegeta would most likely consider it a greater offense if Goku didn't use Super Saiya-jin 3 now that he's learned about it, given that he'd almost certainly consider it a matter of Goku not wanting to show him how much stronger he was so as to not hurt him more.

Once Vegeta related to Goku that he knew about Super Saiya-jin 3, any notion that he avoided using it after just to spare Vegeta's pride becomes meaningless.

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Re: Gotenks's strength

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Tue Nov 03, 2015 5:44 pm

Why is it people can arbitrarily decide when and when not Goku is actually putting thought into something or not? "Goku isn't doing numbers in his head because I say so." That's supposed to be a valid reason to disregard power statements?

There always seems to be some excuse to justify the character being idiots and the author being bad at storytelling.
LightBing wrote:Why would he agree with Piccolo, if he even said not to use the RoSaT and was sure the kids would be strong enough? My point is that he was sure initially, however the kids turn out to be weaker than he thought or Boo stronger than he thought ;probably a combination of the too. I provided the quotes to support my reasoning, Kaboom post also states significant info. In the end we only have Goku's words, that aren't contradicted neither are confirmed. No point in further discussing this technicalities back and forth.
You're making things up now. Goku never shows uncertainty in fusion's power, the only 'if' is 'if' the kids can learn it or not. Go back and read the statements. (This was not intended to come off as rude, by the way. Just to clarify.)

Why does it matter if they're not confirmed? Did anyone confirm that Raditz is Goku's brother? Did anyone confirm Goku actually went to Yardrat, did anyone confirm Goku could've actually beaten Fat Boo?
LightBing wrote:He did not and it's not the point. The point being he doesn't mind risking everyone's life.
In the first situation Vegeta, almost killed his son and best friend in Namek, dumb luck made it not happen.Goku didn't risk Vegeta would turn good.
In the second he clearly failed, or else he wouldn't have been dead for 7 years, even needing to hold his son's hand to get the kill.
He did end up being right. Vegeta ended up being a huge asset in most scenarios, and Gohan ended up stronger than Cell. Why is this the one scenario where Goku is way off, and no one cares to say anything, and the author doesn't care to demonstrate him to be wrong?
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:When Goten and Trunks went full-power, was Goku's "Is that it?" a genuine question or was it more along the lines of him not being too impressed?

Btw, this question has nothing to do with Gotenks. I'm just wondering if there's a way to decipher the way the quote is phrased.
It could just mean he expected more, not that they're weak.

Regardless, even with what he's given he states that it's still enough to beat Boo.
khalildh wrote:Everyone always overlooks the fact that when Goku told Super Boo he was going to die if they fought, he was not planning on using Super Saiyan 3. In order to protect Vegeta's Saiyan pride, Goku was going to try and fight Boo using Super Saiyan 2. You all have to realize that Goku's Super Saiyan 3 was definitely the strongest at the end of the Saga, it is literally the only way the Boo Saga narrative makes any sense.
He was trying to protect Vegeta's pride in front of Pure Boo also?

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Re: Gotenks's strength

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Nov 03, 2015 5:58 pm

khalildh wrote:Everyone always overlooks the fact that when Goku told Super Boo he was going to die if they fought, he was not planning on using Super Saiyan 3. In order to protect Vegeta's Saiyan pride, Goku was going to try and fight Boo using Super Saiyan 2.
Since when did Goku care about Vegeta's pride? Back before the Cell Games, he told him in front of his face that he was much stronger than him just like that. He also didn't care to use Super Saiyan 3 against Pure Boo, and Vegeta already knew about SS3, so why would he hide it from Vegeta against Evil Boo?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Gotenks's strength

Post by Jeff Styles » Wed Nov 04, 2015 1:53 am

Goku thought a Metamoran fusion of Goten and Trunks would be enough to beats Fat Boo.This is not proved until SSJ Gotenks goes off to battle Fat Boo.Piccolo's only concern is Gotenks only have a minute left until he defuse.

SSJ Gotenks(pre ROSAT)>Fat Boo

When Evil Boo appears, his presence is felt from the Scared World of the Kais.Piccolo first comment Boo is now Pure Evil and his body is better suited for battling.Later on, he told Goten and Trunks everything about Boo has changed,Piccolo told Krillin to go and wakes up Goten and Trunks and tells them to head to the ROSAT and trains as hard as they could if they don;t wants to dies.After Piccolo sees Base Gotenks(post ROSAT), he is impress and thinks he have a chance to win.Only to be disappoint that Boo is much stronger than he thought he is.

Evil Boo>>Base Gotenks(post ROSAT)>SSJ Gotenks(pre ROSAT)>Fat Boo

Goten and Trunks aren't far away from the adults, even before their ROSAT training.They battle Gohan and Vegeta respective when their aura is shown.Putting them at least 50% of their power,

SSJ3 Gogeta>SSJ3 Gotenks>SSJ2 Gogeta>SSJ2 Gotenks>SSJ Gogeta>SSJ Gotenks>Base Gogeta>Base Gotenks

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Re: Gotenks's strength

Post by Khin » Wed Nov 04, 2015 3:02 am

SSJ3 Gotenks(Post ROSAT) >= Super Buu > SSJ Gotenks(Post ROSAT) >= SSJ Gotenks(Pre ROSAT) > SSJ3 Goku > Fat Buu(Pre Split)

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Re: Gotenks's strength

Post by Speedster » Wed Nov 04, 2015 11:20 am

khalildh wrote:Everyone always overlooks the fact that when Goku told Super Boo he was going to die if they fought, he was not planning on using Super Saiyan 3. In order to protect Vegeta's Saiyan pride, Goku was going to try and fight Boo using Super Saiyan 2. You all have to realize that Goku's Super Saiyan 3 was definitely the strongest at the end of the Saga, it is literally the only way the Boo Saga narrative makes any sense.
I would say instead that he just said so because at the time they were both in their SSJ2 forms and therefore he just referred to their SSJ2 forms out of respect to Vegeta. "We are not match for him". Otherwise it would be like "you the weakling who can only go up to SSJ2 are not match for him but myself who can turn SSJ3 I am"
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Since when did Goku care about Vegeta's pride?
Since when Vegeta sacrificed himself based on a lie.
Why would he not be planning on using it?
Because the plot demanded it. Your own words on a different topic! :thumbup:

Also such a thing in Dragonball happened all the time. It always appears that Goku used all of his power only to turn out that he was holding back considerably after all. See his fight with Tenshinhan for example. And not only Goku but villains as well. It happened with Freeza where fourth form Freeza struggled only to later reveal than he was not using anywhere near 50% of his maximum while we were thinking that his final form was his maximum. Happened with Cell too, with Beerus and the list goes on. Additionally people here try to adhere to the “official” (read random) guide-book multipliers to make their argument as if Toriyama ever wrote based on consistent rules and multipliers. For all we know SSJ might be a boost than a multiplier or a different multiplier upon a stronger base.
Vegeta's already aware at the time that Goku had lied to him earlier when the two fought and saw that Goku had Super Saiya-jin 3, so there's no reason that he'd continue not using it just to try and spare Vegeta.
Vegeta didn't know how powerful SSJ3 was however. Knowing that Goku was 4x stronger than him would be much more humiliating than being let to believe it was only a say 1.5x difference which was more reachable. After all going from SSJ1 to SSJ2 is according to the (random) guides only x2. Why would Vegeta think that going from SSJ2 to SSJ3 be much different?
If anything, Vegeta would most likely consider it a greater offense if Goku didn't use Super Saiya-jin 3 now that he's learned about it, given that he'd almost certainly consider it a matter of Goku not wanting to show him how much stronger he was so as to not hurt him more.
Weak argument. Here is an equivalent. When Goku fought kid Buu Vegeta remarked about it in chapter 511 page 12: "Don't try to spare my feelings" and I would complete "like you did before"...

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Re: Gotenks's strength

Post by Darkprince410 » Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:52 pm

Weak argument. Here is an equivalent. When Goku fought kid Buu Vegeta remarked about it in chapter 511 page 12: "Don't try to spare my feelings" and I would complete "like you did before"...
That's not a good argument and you know it. In this situation here, it's a matter of Goku not wanting to switch Vegeta in so as to keep him from risking his life and dying against an opponent far too strong for him. In the situation within Evil Buu though, he's wanting neither of them to even try to fight Buu individually because he knows neither of them can beat Evil Buu on their own. With Pure Buu, it's sparing his feelings to protect his life, not to spare his pride. He had absolutely no qualms about using Ssj3 against Pure Buu, which means he'd have absolutely no qualms about using Ssj3 against Evil Buu if he thought it'd work.

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Re: Gotenks's strength

Post by IDreamtIWasABee » Wed Nov 04, 2015 10:44 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Personally, I'd prefer to assume fusion is something predictable or something not impossible to predict (like many make it out to be) instead of assuming that Goku was talking out of his ass and potentially sending his 6-year-old son, his wife, and his life-long best friends along with their children to their deaths and endangering the whole universe. But hey, that's just me.
He did that anyway. Turning a mission to save the universe into an exercise for the kids is astonishingly stupid, even if Gotenks had been twice as strong.

I've always wondered why Piccolo didn't verbally knee him in the balls the way he did at the Cell Games.

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Re: Gotenks's strength

Post by Cipher » Wed Nov 04, 2015 11:25 pm

IDreamtIWasABee wrote:I've always wondered why Piccolo didn't verbally knee him in the balls the way he did at the Cell Games.
Piccolo was dead by the time Goku admitted he'd played around. We don't get to see them have another moment together before the end of the arc.

Even then, Piccolo was probably just fed up and wanted to go home.

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Re: Gotenks's strength

Post by dbgtFO » Thu Nov 05, 2015 10:10 am

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:When Goten and Trunks went full-power, was Goku's "Is that it?" a genuine question or was it more along the lines of him not being too impressed?

Btw, this question has nothing to do with Gotenks. I'm just wondering if there's a way to decipher the way the quote is phrased.
Seemed like a genuine question, though Trunks and Goten were disappointed with his reaction.
Later on Goku does after all state, that he thought it was a good gamble to take precisely, because the quirts were so super-gifted.

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Re: Gotenks's strength

Post by LowRyder2005 » Thu Nov 05, 2015 10:23 am

Bacon Skittles wrote:I've heard that Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku, which this could be due to being half-Saiyan. However how strong is Gotenks in his various forms when compared to other characters?
Although we are indeed lead to believe that SSJ Gotenks may rival Goku's power as SSJ3 (and it's the most obvious interpretation, really), the Daizenshuu states that after the ROSAT, Gotenks surpasses "Vegeta and the others", alas, "Vegeta and at least two people who were stronger than Gotenks at that time". In-context, since the same Daizenshuu states Goten is at least equal to Gohan (pre-training), it makes it very likely - if not certain - that Gotenks surpasses Vegeta, Goku and Buu. So there you have it:

Ultimate Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks >=< Super Buu > SSJ3 Goku > Fat Buu > Majin Vegeta >=< SSJ2 Vegeta = SSJ2 Goku > SSJ Gotenks > SSJ2 Gohan

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Re: Gotenks's strength

Post by Darkprince410 » Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:09 pm

LowRyder2005 wrote:
Bacon Skittles wrote:I've heard that Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku, which this could be due to being half-Saiyan. However how strong is Gotenks in his various forms when compared to other characters?
Although we are indeed lead to believe that SSJ Gotenks may rival Goku's power as SSJ3 (and it's the most obvious interpretation, really), the Daizenshuu states that after the ROSAT, Gotenks surpasses "Vegeta and the others", alas, "Vegeta and at least two people who were stronger than Gotenks at that time". In-context, since the same Daizenshuu states Goten is at least equal to Gohan (pre-training), it makes it very likely - if not certain - that Gotenks surpasses Vegeta, Goku and Buu. So there you have it:
The wording on that Daizenshuu entry is the typical vague sort of fact we see all too often with it. It's very, very possible that it was referring to Gotenks' base form surpassing Vegeta and the others after they entered the Room, which would still leave Ssj Gotenks above them all beforehand.

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Re: Gotenks's strength

Post by Hitiro » Thu Nov 05, 2015 7:23 pm

Darkprince410 wrote:The wording on that Daizenshuu entry is the typical vague sort of fact we see all too often with it. It's very, very possible that it was referring to Gotenks' base form surpassing Vegeta and the others after they entered the Room, which would still leave Ssj Gotenks above them all beforehand.
Honestly it makes more sense that the entry is talking about base Gotenks surpassing SSJ2 Vegeta. I say this because Piccolo does think base Gotenks could do something against Evil Boo. Even though he was clearly wrong the staff may have looked at this and thought "Well maybe Gotenks isn't strong enough to fight Evil Boo in base but for Piccolo to even say something like this Gotenks must have surpassed his SSJ pre-RoSaT self. Which was supposed to be able to beat Fat Boo which means he should be as strong or stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta. " Personally I don't think he became that strong.

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