Is Vegito vastly superior to Gogeta or only slightly?

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Re: Is Vegito vastly superior to Gogeta or only slightly?

Post by Truhan » Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:52 pm

Well, I always thought Akira Toriyama was a good drawing artist, but not much of a writer. I mean, you can tell with Dragon Ball...

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Re: Is Vegito vastly superior to Gogeta or only slightly?

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:53 pm

I can't really tell with Dragon Ball, honestly. I've never seen one example of an incorrect line being left uncontradicted within the story.

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Re: Is Vegito vastly superior to Gogeta or only slightly?

Post by Truhan » Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:59 pm

That's another discussion, but power and strength differences should be enough. You can never tell when a character is simply getting stronger or just gathering Ki, as Piccolo would against Raditz, and as Vegeta got against Cell. On the other hand, you can tell when people still think that Full Power SSJ is much stronger than a USSJ, just because Goku surpassed Trunks. It's only a situational feat that people cling to, when in truth, Cell used his own Ultra form after having powered up to his fullest, which means he got stronger. Dragon Ball is inconsistent from both the writer and the fans' perspective.

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Re: Is Vegito vastly superior to Gogeta or only slightly?

Post by fadeddreams5 » Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:01 pm

Where are people getting that Goten and Trunks are anywhere near their fathers in terms of strength? They both got one-shotted by Vegeta, and neither can go SSJ2...

And as far as I can tell, Old Kai only mentioned that the effect of the potara fusion is superior to the metamoran one. As in, there is no time limit, time-consuming dance, or weakness to it--it's an instantaneous fusion that never wears out. Even if Vegito is stronger than Gogeta, it's nothing ridiculous like Base Vegito > SSJ3 Gogeta. O_o

Speaking of which, SSJ3 Gogeta does not even exist.
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Re: Is Vegito vastly superior to Gogeta or only slightly?

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:07 pm

fadeddreams5 wrote:Where are people getting that Goten and Trunks are anywhere near their fathers in terms of strength? They both got one-shotted by Vegeta, and neither can go SSJ2...
They were one-shotted by SS2 Vegeta, and people clearly mean not the kids far-off in equal forms, which is supported by the manga.
fadeddreams5 wrote:And as far as I can tell, Old Kai only mentioned that the effect of the potara fusion is superior to the metamoran one. As in, there is no time limit, time-consuming dance, or weakness to it--it's an instantaneous fusion that never wears out. Even if Vegito is stronger than Gogeta, it's nothing ridiculous like Base Vegito > SSJ3 Gogeta. O_o
He's not referring to time or efficiency. Goku would not need to be told that putting on an earring is easier than doing a specific dance as the most simple-minded of people can easily infer that. It does not refer to time either, as that's mentioned after.

Base Vegetto can be stronger than SS3 Gogeta. Not that I agree or think it's a fact, but it's certainly not objectively wrong.
fadeddreams5 wrote:Speaking of which, SSJ3 Gogeta does not even exist.
Not debuting does not mean impossible to exist.
Truhan wrote:That's another discussion, but power and strength differences should be enough. You can never tell when a character is simply getting stronger or just gathering Ki, as Piccolo would against Raditz, and as Vegeta got against Cell. On the other hand, you can tell when people still think that Full Power SSJ is much stronger than a USSJ, just because Goku surpassed Trunks. It's only a situational feat that people cling to, when in truth, Cell used his own Ultra form after having powered up to his fullest, which means he got stronger. Dragon Ball is inconsistent from both the writer and the fans' perspective.
Forgive me if I'm sounding dumb right now, is this trying to argue against Gohan-Boo's statement, if so, please clarify.

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Re: Is Vegito vastly superior to Gogeta or only slightly?

Post by Truhan » Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:14 pm

It's just an example of Dragon Ball's inconsistency, which we shouldn't try to make sense with. I used that example as a reply to your claim that DB wasn't inconsistent, which in turn answers my own claim that we put too much character psychology in our analysis. In other words, we make guesses of the characters and the author's intentions, when it's much simpler to use feats and statements, but correctly.

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Re: Is Vegito vastly superior to Gogeta or only slightly?

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:16 pm

Okay, I won't argue author's intent, although I did originally say I thought it was clear, not that everyone had to. Anywho, how is using Gohan-Boo's statement to say he's stronger than a Goku/Vegeta metamoran fusion incorrect? Do you think he's arrogant, because I disagree and find him the opposite. Or do you believe fusion is impossible predict? Because I again disagree as nothing says that and the opposite is suggested.

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Re: Is Vegito vastly superior to Gogeta or only slightly?

Post by Truhan » Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:19 pm

We're arguing different things. I don't even know if I'm against your opinion. I was replying to Dark Prince, but you got caught in the discussion. I agree that Potara Fusion is stronger than the Fusion Dance, but not because the adults got much stronger together than the kids. I just thought the kids were not that strong, period. My argument ended when I used the 2008 Special and BoG as "evidence", which were quickly discarded for reasons inconsistent with someone who uses the Daizenshuu to support his claims.

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Re: Is Vegito vastly superior to Gogeta or only slightly?

Post by fadeddreams5 » Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:22 pm

They were one-shotted by SS2 Vegeta, and people clearly mean not the kids far-off in equal forms, which is supported by the manga.
In equal forms, SSJ Vegeta knocked down SSJ Trunks with a single punch which nearly made him cry.
He's not referring to time or efficiency. Goku would not need to be told that putting on an earring is easier than doing a specific dance as the most simple-minded of people can easily infer that. It does not refer to time either, as that's mentioned after.
Overall, the effect of the potara is greater than metamoran fusion. The by-product might be a little stronger than one resulting from regular fusion, but this is never directly stated by the Old Kai. Even if Vegito is stronger than him, I don't understand why people believe Gogeta is that much inferior.
Not debuting does not mean impossible to exist.
True, but I just find it silly. You never see anyone saying Base Goku > SSJ3 Goten or SSJ3 Future Trunks.
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Re: Is Vegito vastly superior to Gogeta or only slightly?

Post by jamiljamtheman » Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:44 pm

For the record, Toei did not "steal" the goku-vegeta fusion. :p the manga debut of vegito was January 1995, whereas fusion reborn debuted in march 1995.

I guess from your guys' evidence Vegito outclasses Gogeta in strength, but I still argue that Gogeta could have a couple advantages. I still think he is faster than vegito, and its possible that soul punisher would be useful against buu saga vegito (since Vegeta was still at least kind of evil). But that's a different topic entirely :lol:

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Re: Is Vegito vastly superior to Gogeta or only slightly?

Post by Darkprince410 » Wed Nov 04, 2015 7:07 pm

fadeddreams5 wrote:
They were one-shotted by SS2 Vegeta, and people clearly mean not the kids far-off in equal forms, which is supported by the manga.
In equal forms, SSJ Vegeta knocked down SSJ Trunks with a single punch which nearly made him cry.
But that's all the punch managed to do. It was a reactive punch spurred by anger, and all it managed to do was knock him back and make his nose bleed. This coming right after we see Vegeta visibly having a hard time blocking and dodging Trunks' blows. We've seen time and again where even a difference of 2x is substantial enough for one individual to be able to dodge and block blows so easily it's like the person throwing them wasn't even trying (Goku vs. Nappa, Goku vs. the Ginyu Tokusentai, etc), and even smaller gaps have shown one side still clearly having superiority over the other (Recoome vs. Vegeta, Vegeta vs. Kui, etc). Given Vegeta's clear difficulty in defending himself against Trunks, the gap between them comes off as being very small.

Couple that with the fact that the Daizenshuu establishes Goten as being as strong as Gohan, and Gohan's comment in-universe that the boys will outstrip him if he isn't careful, and it all points to the boys being right there with the adults power wise.
jamiljamtheman wrote:For the record, Toei did not "steal" the goku-vegeta fusion. :p the manga debut of vegito was January 1995, whereas fusion reborn debuted in march 1995.
Actually, they kind of did.

From Toriyama's interview for Daizenshuu 6:
What about the concept of the Potara?

That was simply, since Fusion was a plot point that was already taken by one of the movies, I was wondering what I should do; I had always been drawing earrings [on Kaiōshin], so I thought, “perhaps I can use these”…
So, according to Toriyama, he came up with the idea of the Potara earrings because the idea of the a Goku/Vegeta fusion with the dance was already in the works for movie 12. Just because Vegetto made his actual debut before Gogeta did doesn't mean that Vegetto came first.
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Re: Is Vegito vastly superior to Gogeta or only slightly?

Post by Truhan » Wed Nov 04, 2015 7:13 pm

Actually, SSJ Trunks is stronger than SSJ Vegeta, given we see him run circles around Vegeta, who had been struggling with gravity. Hey, it's a feat, not my opinion...

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Re: Is Vegito vastly superior to Gogeta or only slightly?

Post by Hitiro » Wed Nov 04, 2015 7:18 pm

jamiljamtheman wrote:For the record, Toei did not "steal" the goku-vegeta fusion. :p the manga debut of vegito was January 1995, whereas fusion reborn debuted in march 1995.

I guess from your guys' evidence Vegito outclasses Gogeta in strength, but I still argue that Gogeta could have a couple advantages. I still think he is faster than vegito, and its possible that soul punisher would be useful against buu saga vegito (since Vegeta was still at least kind of evil). But that's a different topic entirely :lol:
To be fair while Fusion Reborn debuted in March it takes a good several months to develop such a thing. And a script needs to be developed before that too and must be approved by whoever is going to publish the movie plus provide funding. It is highly likely that this stuff was decided 6 months prior, much like games take 6 months to a year to develop or some movies.

And it is debatable about Gogeta being faster then Vegetto. It all depends on how close they are in terms of strength. Because if they are fairly close then yes, the weaker one could be faster. But as we saw with Butta, while he claims to be the fastest in the universe, he loses out to people with more power than him. Now in terms of strength he could be around Recoom and Jheese's level of strength, maybe even lower than them. And still be superior in speed to the both of them. But Goku demonstrated that with a battle power of 90,000 he totally outclassed them. Ginyu said that if Goku's battle power were around 60,000 he would understand how they gave them such a difficult time. Estimations of, at least, Recoom would be around 40,000+ and if the others are comparable then Goku being just 1.5x stronger shows that Butta's speed can easily be outclassed.
Truhan wrote:Actually, SSJ Trunks is stronger than SSJ Vegeta, given we see him run circles around Vegeta, who had been struggling with gravity. Hey, it's a feat, not my opinion...
Why does that make Trunks stronger? He is a 9 year old child with probably a third to a half of Vegeta's body weight. So no, it wouldn't make him stronger at all. Dr. Briefs says if Vegeta weighs 60 kilos(132 lbs) he would weigh 18 tons in 300x Earth's gravity. An average child of 9 years old if they were 4ft would weigh about 60 lbs. I don't know if there are any actual weight and height data in the databooks but myAnimeList puts Trunks at 4'2". So he is probably around half the weight of Vegeta meaning he would only need half the strength.

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Re: Is Vegito vastly superior to Gogeta or only slightly?

Post by Jeff Styles » Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:37 pm

Based on Goten and Trunks's training(pre ROSAT) with Gohan and Vegeta, their aura are shown, meaning they are fighting at 50% at least.

Boohan says a fusion(Metamoran) between Goku and Vegeta won't beats him.

I have

SSJ Vegito>>>Boohan>Bootenks>SSJ3 Gogeta>Ultimate Gohan>Base Vegito>Buff Boo>Booicolo>SSJ3 Gotenks~Evil Boo>SSJ2 Gogeta>SSJ2 Gotenks>SSJ Gogeta>SSJ Gotenks>Base Gogeta>Base Gotenks

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Re: Is Vegito vastly superior to Gogeta or only slightly?

Post by Kaboom » Wed Nov 04, 2015 10:14 pm

What the Elder Kaioshin said about the source of Vegetto's unexpected strength — that it was mainly thanks to Goku and Vegeta's qualities rather than the Potara — is more than enough to "cancel out" whatever arrogant boasts or presumptions Boo made about a Goku-and-Vegeta Fusion's chances against him. Other guidebooks also freely assign the same "strongest Fusion" and "universe's ultimate warrior" and other such titles onto Gogeta just like they do to Vegetto. So clearly Gogeta is meant to be a powerhouse just like his Potara counterpart, solely by virtue of being a Goku-Vegeta Fusion.

Yet both the manga and other sources also plainly say that, all else being equal, the Potara is still a better/stronger method of Fusion than the Dance. So all things considered, the only true limitation or requirement for Gogeta's strength is that he's weaker than Vegetto overall (i.e. "in equivalent forms").

I personally think he's only a few times weaker at most, and at Super Saiyan he's either equal with or just slightly stronger than Gotenks- or Gohan-absorbed Boo. If he fought them, it'd probably unfold a lot like Gotenks' fight with Evil Boo or Goku's fight with Pure Boo. But unlike those fights, Gogeta wouldn't be hampered by Super Saiyan 3, and he's got the extreme benefit of both Goku and Vegeta's skills and talent combined... so he'd probably have a tough time but would almost certainly win both fights in the end. Maybe that's about how Vegetto expected his own fight with Boo to go, and so he was surprised to end up much, much stronger and have such an easy advantage.
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Re: Is Vegito vastly superior to Gogeta or only slightly?

Post by miguelnuva1 » Wed Nov 04, 2015 10:44 pm

The main problem I have with a weak Gogeta is the fact that fusion is not linear.

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Re: Is Vegito vastly superior to Gogeta or only slightly?

Post by Herms » Wed Nov 04, 2015 10:51 pm

miguelnuva1 wrote:The main problem I have with a weak Gogeta is the fact that fusion is not linear.
Yeah, I appreciate the logic behind saying the gap between Gotenks and Gogeta should be equivalent to the gap between Goten/Trunks and Goku/Vegeta...but at the same time I think it might be too simplistic.

Also, while maybe it's not too relevant, how do the various games portray Gogeta in relation to Vegetto? All I can recall offhand is the Ultimate Butoden What-If story where they fight and Gogeta only loses because his fusion time runs out. Not exactly canon or anything, but I think that's how must people view the two: more or less equal, except Gogeta's got a time limit.
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Re: Is Vegito vastly superior to Gogeta or only slightly?

Post by miguelnuva1 » Wed Nov 04, 2015 11:10 pm

Herms wrote:
miguelnuva1 wrote:The main problem I have with a weak Gogeta is the fact that fusion is not linear.
Yeah, I appreciate the logic behind saying the gap between Gotenks and Gogeta should be equivalent to the gap between Goten/Trunks and Goku/Vegeta...but at the same time I think it might be too simplistic.

Also, while maybe it's not too relevant, how do the various games portray Gogeta in relation to Vegetto? All I can recall offhand is the Ultimate Butoden What-If story where they fight and Gogeta only loses because his fusion time runs out. Not exactly canon or anything, but I think that's how must people view the two: more or less equal, except Gogeta's got a time limit.
Personally I go with the one form theory. What ever a ssj1 Vegito can do Gogeta needs ssj2 to do the same thing.

As for Buuhan, Vegito dominates him, while Gogeta would be just strong enough to survive.

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Re: Is Vegito vastly superior to Gogeta or only slightly?

Post by dbzfan7 » Wed Nov 04, 2015 11:16 pm

Herms wrote:
miguelnuva1 wrote:The main problem I have with a weak Gogeta is the fact that fusion is not linear.
Yeah, I appreciate the logic behind saying the gap between Gotenks and Gogeta should be equivalent to the gap between Goten/Trunks and Goku/Vegeta...but at the same time I think it might be too simplistic.

Also, while maybe it's not too relevant, how do the various games portray Gogeta in relation to Vegetto? All I can recall offhand is the Ultimate Butoden What-If story where they fight and Gogeta only loses because his fusion time runs out. Not exactly canon or anything, but I think that's how must people view the two: more or less equal, except Gogeta's got a time limit.
I logically feel that Gogeta can not be that much stronger than Gotenks, or else he gets a magical boost for some reason that Gotenks doesn't. Though nothing like that is ever said for the metamorese fusion. However the games seem to always portray them as pretty close to each other. So perhaps that's what the people behind Dragon Ball really think it is? Sure it hasn't happened in the series, but chances are if something like this happened, it'd probably play out like in the games.

Kinda like that whole Kibitoshin thing in the Super Manga I had already heard of in the video games being done. So them defusing wasn't that much of a surprise to me since Vegetto used the same method in his Shin Budokai 2 ending.
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Re: Is Vegito vastly superior to Gogeta or only slightly?

Post by Kaboom » Wed Nov 04, 2015 11:27 pm

Herms wrote:Also, while maybe it's not too relevant, how do the various games portray Gogeta in relation to Vegetto?
For the most part, I think the games tend to hype of the QUESTION of "Goku vs Vegetto" rather than try to give any answer. Of course, the games like to pit Gogeta up against Broli for some reason too, so...
dbzfan7 wrote:I logically feel that Gogeta can not be that much stronger than Gotenks, or else he gets a magical boost for some reason that Gotenks doesn't.
Yet a mysterious, borderline-magical "there's something about Goku and Vegeta" boost is exactly what was given credit for Vegetto's extra strength. Elder Kaioshin even called his younger compatriot an idiot for thinking it was just because of the Potara. Which leads me to think that ANY Fusion of Goku and Vegeta would likewise be extraordinarily strong compared to others.
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