Is Vegito vastly superior to Gogeta or only slightly?

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miguelnuva1
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Is Vegito vastly superior to Gogeta or only slightly?

Post by miguelnuva1 » Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:28 am

I'm basically bringing this up for a couple reasons. Before we go into this we know a couple of things.

1. Potara is stated stronger than fusion but not by a certain amount.

2. Vegito is suprised by his power against Buuhan.

3. Old Kai mentions that potara isn't all the reason Vegito was strong but the fact Goku and Vegeta together took it that far.

4. Let's use Gogeta as he appeared in M12.

Finally we also need what ever numbers you use for

1. Goten and Trunks(pre rosat)
2. Goten and Trunks(post rosat)
3. Goku and Vegeta.

Now to begin. Gotenks pre rosat was around SSJ2 level in his base form got destroyed by Fat Buu. As a SSJ Gotenks pre rosat surpassed Fat Buu. Fat Buu got a monstrous power up into Super Buu to the point Piccolo wouldn't let the boys fight.

Super Buu>SSJ Gotenks pre>Fat Buu> Base Gotenks pre

Piccolo late hopes that training in the ROSAT will help Gotenks win, when the boys fuse Piccolo is happy and thinks they can win.

Base Gotenks (post)=SSJ Gotenks (expected)=Super Buu.

Now the above isn't really important or fact the point is Piccolo doesn't note that Goten and Trunks made any increase but Gotenks at least got 50x stronger(or what ever the SSJ boost is).

Saying that to see if Goten and Trunks didn't increase a lot then Goku and Vegeta who are a decent amount stronger should make Gogeta a monster to Gotenks.

Finally Vegito mentions he shouldn't be dominating Buuhan but what is he estimating off? I think Vegito using Goku who had estimated what Gotenks would be is comparing himself to Gogeta. I believe a SSJ Gogeta would have a Goku vs Cell gap on Buu while we know Vegito could dominate Buu. If I had to use numbers

SSJ Gogeta: 100
Buuhan: 120
SSJ Vegito: 195
SSJ2 Gogeta: 200

Buu is about 20% stronger than a normal SSJ Gogeta and Vegito has a bigger gap then Ginyu thought could embarrass the Ginyu Force.

What does anyone else think?

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Re: Is Vegito vastly superior to Gogeta or only slightly?

Post by Darkprince410 » Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:36 am

Given how close Goten and Trunks were to their fathers in terms of power, Super Saiya-jin 3 Gogeta would only be slightly above Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks in terms of power, meaning that it would still almost certainly take Ssj3 Gogeta to be able to take on regular Evil Buu. In comparison, Ssj Vegetto, while still readily holding back a portion of his power, was able to effortlessly dominate the far more powerful Gohan Buu.

So, given what is known, you'd be looking at Ssj3 Gogeta being between Gohan and Ssj3 Gotenks in terms of power, indicating a significant difference in power between Ssj Vegetto and the equivalent form for Gogeta.

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Re: Is Vegito vastly superior to Gogeta or only slightly?

Post by miguelnuva1 » Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:55 am

Darkprince410 wrote:Given how close Goten and Trunks were to their fathers in terms of power, Super Saiya-jin 3 Gogeta would only be slightly above Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks in terms of power, meaning that it would still almost certainly take Ssj3 Gogeta to be able to take on regular Evil Buu. In comparison, Ssj Vegetto, while still readily holding back a portion of his power, was able to effortlessly dominate the far more powerful Gohan Buu.

So, given what is known, you'd be looking at Ssj3 Gogeta being between Gohan and Ssj3 Gotenks in terms of power, indicating a significant difference in power between Ssj Vegetto and the equivalent form for Gogeta.
So you have Goten and Trunks post rosat surpassing SSJ Goten and SSJ Trunks pre roast.

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Re: Is Vegito vastly superior to Gogeta or only slightly?

Post by Khin » Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:58 am

Base Vegetto > SSJ3 Gogeta .SSJ3 Gogeta would be only at Butenks level at best in my opinion while Base Vegetto was stomping Buuhan effortlessly.

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Re: Is Vegito vastly superior to Gogeta or only slightly?

Post by Darkprince410 » Wed Nov 04, 2015 3:10 am

miguelnuva1 wrote:
Darkprince410 wrote:Given how close Goten and Trunks were to their fathers in terms of power, Super Saiya-jin 3 Gogeta would only be slightly above Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks in terms of power, meaning that it would still almost certainly take Ssj3 Gogeta to be able to take on regular Evil Buu. In comparison, Ssj Vegetto, while still readily holding back a portion of his power, was able to effortlessly dominate the far more powerful Gohan Buu.

So, given what is known, you'd be looking at Ssj3 Gogeta being between Gohan and Ssj3 Gotenks in terms of power, indicating a significant difference in power between Ssj Vegetto and the equivalent form for Gogeta.
So you have Goten and Trunks post rosat surpassing SSJ Goten and SSJ Trunks pre roast.
Even before the Room of Spirit and Time, the boys were established to be extremely close to the adults in terms of power, so even if one doesn't take Piccolo's comment at face value and that he overestimated Gotenks' increase, Gogeta wouldn't be much different than Gotenks at the same level. Therefore, the difference between Gogeta and Vegetto would be huge, regardless of which of the two.

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Re: Is Vegito vastly superior to Gogeta or only slightly?

Post by miguelnuva1 » Wed Nov 04, 2015 3:39 am

Darkprince410 wrote:
miguelnuva1 wrote:
Darkprince410 wrote:Given how close Goten and Trunks were to their fathers in terms of power, Super Saiya-jin 3 Gogeta would only be slightly above Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks in terms of power, meaning that it would still almost certainly take Ssj3 Gogeta to be able to take on regular Evil Buu. In comparison, Ssj Vegetto, while still readily holding back a portion of his power, was able to effortlessly dominate the far more powerful Gohan Buu.

So, given what is known, you'd be looking at Ssj3 Gogeta being between Gohan and Ssj3 Gotenks in terms of power, indicating a significant difference in power between Ssj Vegetto and the equivalent form for Gogeta.
So you have Goten and Trunks post rosat surpassing SSJ Goten and SSJ Trunks pre roast.
Even before the Room of Spirit and Time, the boys were established to be extremely close to the adults in terms of power, so even if one doesn't take Piccolo's comment at face value and that he overestimated Gotenks' increase, Gogeta wouldn't be much different than Gotenks at the same level. Therefore, the difference between Gogeta and Vegetto would be huge, regardless of which of the two.
Here's my problem. Goten and Trunks were stated to not be able to win as SSJ Gotenks pre rosat, Base Gotenks post Rosat was thought to be able to win despite Goten and Trunks not increassing a lot. Gogeta could potential be 50x Gotenks because Gotenks himself got 50x more powerful, Even if we use a 10x multiplier

Gotenks pre
-1
ssj-10

Gotenks post
-11
ssj-110
ssj2- 220
ssj3- 880

Gogeta
-110
-1,100

Something like this is possible.

The big problem I have is that Gotenks gets a lot stronger while Goten and Trunks don't, so something like this

Boys pre: 1
Boys post: 1.5
Goku and Vegeta: 2

Means Base Gogeta=SSJ Gotenks potentially and SSJ Gogeta> SSJ3 Gotenks.

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Re: Is Vegito vastly superior to Gogeta or only slightly?

Post by Darkprince410 » Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:43 am

There's really only one of two ways to look at the situation given the information provided, and neither have Gotenks being that weak in comparison to Gogeta.

1) Gotenks is now 50x as strong as he was before, meaning the boys are 50x as strong as they were before they entered the Room of Spirit and Time. Therefore, given how close they were strength wise to the adults before entering, then after, they were nearly 50x stronger than the adults.

2) Piccolo's statement can't be taken as face value, and his comment about them being "doomed" was him going back on how strong he thought Gotenks was. He was stronger than he was before by a good deal, but not the 50x stronger as would be the case with #1.

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Re: Is Vegito vastly superior to Gogeta or only slightly?

Post by miguelnuva1 » Wed Nov 04, 2015 7:07 am

Fusion not being linear makes both statements work. Small gains for Goten and Trunks are large gains for Gotenks.

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Re: Is Vegito vastly superior to Gogeta or only slightly?

Post by Truhan » Wed Nov 04, 2015 8:43 am

I have developed a few formulas that help place Vegetto and Gogeta relative to Buu and his absorptions, with Janemba in between.
Fusion Dance = (A + B) * 10, where A and B are equal, which means that it's the same as 20 times the lowest battle power.

Potara Fusion = A * B / 10 ** (N - 1), where N is the number of digits in one's power. Same thing for transformations.

Buu's absorption = Buu * Victim / 10 ** (N - 1), where N is the number of digits in Buu's power.
So, if Vegeta and Goku were both 5'000, then by applying the fusion formula we have: SSJ Gogeta at 5'000'000. When using the potara fusion formula, we have a few steps worth following:
5'000 * 5'000 / 1'000 = 25'000. Then if he transforms into SSJ, it's 50 * 50 / 10 = 250. SSJ Vegeto is now 6'250'000. Since SSJ2 is two times SSJ, we use 2 * 2 / 1 = 4. SSJ2 Vegetto is now 25'000'000.

Now, let's get into the kids and Majin Buu. Let's consider SSJ3 Gotenks to be 1.6 times stronger than SSJ3 Goku, who is at 2'000'000. SSJ3 Gotenks is 3'200'000, and Super Buu equals him, so through absorption we get 10'240'000 (Buutenks). Now, let's say that Ultimate Gohan is 2 times stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks at 6'400'000:
3'200'000 (Super Buu) * 6'400'000 (Ultimate Gohan) / 1'000'000 = 20'480'000 (Buuhan), which is lower than SSJ2 Vegetto.

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Re: Is Vegito vastly superior to Gogeta or only slightly?

Post by TheGreatness25 » Wed Nov 04, 2015 10:37 am

Where did all of these formulas come from? All that from one comment that says Potara is a "better" fusion...which is followed up with mentioning the dance and time limit?

Goten and Trunks were not close to Goku and Vegeta's power. Goku said he could have defeated fat Boo, which automatically makes the kids much, much weaker than him.

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Re: Is Vegito vastly superior to Gogeta or only slightly?

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Nov 04, 2015 11:37 am

Vegetto is stronger than Gogeta according to the guidebooks. There is nothing in the manga that directly points it, there is only a vague reference about Potara being better than Fusion or that its effect is greater. For Vegetto being surprised that he was making such a fool of Majin Boo, perhaps he didn't know how powerful a merged being of Goku and Vegeta would be. The guidebooks only refer of Super Vegetto as having power that surpass that of SS3 and perhaps even SS4.

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Re: Is Vegito vastly superior to Gogeta or only slightly?

Post by Truhan » Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:14 pm

TheGreatness25 wrote:Where did all of these formulas come from?
I made them. It all started with trying to understand Buu's inner workings by laying down a few numbers, related between them in ways that are easy to understand (if you think in terms of multiplication instead of addition). The basis was that Buu can be powered down by absorbing characters weaker than himself, to a certain extent, and so I framed his numbers between a SSJ3 (fusion) and a SSJ2. I took some feats into consideration, as well as statements that make things clearer than they leave room for interpretation, because it's impossible to keep up with Dragon Ball's inconsistencies. The end result is that SSJ Vegetto is stronger than SSJ Gogeta, as expected, with the latter not being as strong as many would think. According to my numbers, he's actually closer to Ultimate Gohan and above Super Buu, hence why I said that Janemba fits somewhere between him and SSJ3 Goku.

SSJ Vegetto is 1.25 times stronger than SSJ Gogeta.

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Re: Is Vegito vastly superior to Gogeta or only slightly?

Post by jamiljamtheman » Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:43 pm

Well, I'm just gonna input based on what I directly observed in Movie 12 and the half of the Vegito battle I watched.
Vegito is very strong, and probably would have defeated Buu of that was his intention. Even in Base form, he's extremely tough.

However, Gogeta is also incredibly strong--we know for a fact that he is a decent step above SSJ3 Goku (because of how he handled Janemba). Also, it doesn't look like Vegito exhibits the kind of speed Gogeta does (in both Movie 12 AND GT though I know we aren't counting it).

So even though the potara apparently gives Vegito the higher power level, Gogeta is still not too far from that and seems much faster. It would be a close/maybe even battle. Of course, Vegito has the benefit of lasting longer than 30 minutes.

*for most of this post, I am picturing ssj Vegito and ssj Gogeta*

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Re: Is Vegito vastly superior to Gogeta or only slightly?

Post by Hitiro » Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:28 pm

jamiljamtheman wrote:Well, I'm just gonna input based on what I directly observed in Movie 12 and the half of the Vegito battle I watched.
Vegito is very strong, and probably would have defeated Buu of that was his intention. Even in Base form, he's extremely tough.

However, Gogeta is also incredibly strong--we know for a fact that he is a decent step above SSJ3 Goku (because of how he handled Janemba). Also, it doesn't look like Vegito exhibits the kind of speed Gogeta does (in both Movie 12 AND GT though I know we aren't counting it).

So even though the potara apparently gives Vegito the higher power level, Gogeta is still not too far from that and seems much faster. It would be a close/maybe even battle. Of course, Vegito has the benefit of lasting longer than 30 minutes.

*for most of this post, I am picturing ssj Vegito and ssj Gogeta*
If we take M12 as a basis the only Boo Goku had thought prior to going to back to otherworld was Fat Boo. And it was already readily stated that at least a SSJ fusion could beat Fat Boo. But it took a SSJ3 fusion to fight on par with Evil Boo. Going by the SSJ multipliers we are given that places Evil Boo at over 8x stronger than Fat Boo which would in turn be just over 8x stronger than a SSJ fusion. Then we have the fact that Evil Boo absorbed Gohan who was above him. Even if we assume that Gohan isn't that much stronger than Evil Boo he is still probably around or over 8x stronger than Fat Boo. So that makes Boohan around 16x stronger than Fat Boo. Generally it takes someone to be around 25% stronger than yourself to utterly destroy an opponent. SSJ3 Goku was not losing out that badly at the start against Janemba so I would put him around 12.5% of Goku, I guess. So it would look something like this:

Trunks: 0.46875
Goten: 0.46875
Goku: 1
Vegeta: 1
Fat Boo: 300
SSJ Gotenks(Pre-RoSaT): (Trunks + Goten)*8 = 375(My fusion mutliplier for the fusion dance is 8 here to fit with the numbers I put.)
SSJ3 Goku: 400
Janemba: 450
SSJ Gogeta: (Goku + Vegeta)*8 = 800
Evil Boo: 2,400
SSJ3 Gotenks: 2,700
Gohan: 3,000
Boohan: Gohan + Evil Boo = 5,400
SSJ Vegetto: 6,750(This is just a low estimate. I imagine SSJ Vegetto is much higher than 25% of Boohan.)

So yeah, Gogeta is nowhere near Vegetto in terms of power.
Last edited by Hitiro on Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is Vegito vastly superior to Gogeta or only slightly?

Post by Darkprince410 » Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:37 pm

TheGreatness25 wrote:Where did all of these formulas come from? All that from one comment that says Potara is a "better" fusion...which is followed up with mentioning the dance and time limit?

Goten and Trunks were not close to Goku and Vegeta's power. Goku said he could have defeated fat Boo, which automatically makes the kids much, much weaker than him.
All in-universe dialogue/events as well as the Daizenshuu put the kids right up there with Goku and Vegeta in terms of power, and how does Goku saying he could have defeated Fat Buu automatically make the kids weaker than him? Neither of the boys have access to Ssj2 or Ssj3 on their own (it'd take Goku with Ssj3 to beat Fat Buu) and Gotenks only tried fighting Buu in his base form, never getting a chance to use Ssj against him because he screwed around and burned off his time.

The only way that Goku is above Goten and Trunks by any real measure is that he has access to Ssj2 and Ssj3. On a form by form basis though, the boys are right up there with the adults.

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Re: Is Vegito vastly superior to Gogeta or only slightly?

Post by Truhan » Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:09 pm

And yet, later on, SSJ Goku and Vegeta finish off a monster that SSJ Gotenks had trouble with, which means the kids can't be right up there (the 2008 special). Vegeta doesn't believe that SSJ Gotenks has any chance at dealing with Beerus, which also means that the kids are way below. The difference I was talking about doesn't make SSJ Gotenks that much stronger than SSJ Goku or Vegeta, and provided they have trained, the latter would be able to surpass them.

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Re: Is Vegito vastly superior to Gogeta or only slightly?

Post by Darkprince410 » Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:19 pm

Truhan wrote:And yet, later on, SSJ Goku and Vegeta finish off a monster that SSJ Gotenks had trouble with, which means the kids can't be right up there (the 2008 special). Vegeta doesn't believe that SSJ Gotenks has any chance at dealing with Beerus, which also means that the kids are way below. The difference I was talking about doesn't make SSJ Gotenks that much stronger than SSJ Goku or Vegeta, and provided they have trained, the latter would be able to surpass them.
The 2008 special isn't within the manga's continuity, and regardless of it, it was clear that Gotenks was still just playing around with Aka that entire time. He wasn't having any trouble with him at all from the moment the boys fused. Hell, he was battering him around effortlessly in his base form, when Goku felt the need to become a Super Saiya-jin to stop him (a weaker Aka at that, given that he just came back from Gotenks' pummeling).

As for Beerus, how does that mean that the kids were way below? Vegeta didn't think anyone stood a chance against him, regardless of how powerful they were, and Goku didn't think that even a fusion between him and Vegeta (potentially Potara at that) would do anything. He only stepped in at first when he had no choice, and was only able to get anywhere after an unforeseen, massive rage boost pushed him to unprecedented levels of power.

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Re: Is Vegito vastly superior to Gogeta or only slightly?

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:22 pm

Gohan-Boo said a fusion of Goku and Vegeta is no match for him, and this was before he was aware the potara were superior to metamoran fusion, so his estimation would be based off of his knowledge on metamoran fusion. Since there is no contradiction, I interpret that as Gohan-Boo being stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gogeta, since Boo also knows Goku has Super Saiyan 3. I'd also say the author's intent is obvious.

With that said, Vegetto ends up dwarfing Gogeta; which, from an author's standpoint makes perfect sense. Toei stole Gogeta, so Toriyama one-ups Toei and makes his fusion do something Toei's can't, which is beat up Gohan-Boo.

Also, yes, regardless of Boo's comment, potara is objectively stronger than metamoran.

Chapter: 501 (DBZ 307), P6.2-6
Context: Elder Kaioshin gives the Potara to Goku
Elder Kaioshin: “Here! Put this Potara on your left ear! [ ] Put the other one on Gohan’s ear. Just by doing that, you two will be able to merge together! Like with Fusion.”
Goku: “Huh! Re-really!?”
Elder Kaioshin: “Of course. And what’s more, the effect is greater than with Fusion! This has been the trump card treasure of the Kaioshins since long ago.”


No, he's not referring to convenience or time, as the former doesn't need to be stated as it's obviously inferable since Goku already knows putting on an earring is easier than doing a specific dance, and it doesn't reference time as that's mentioned after:

Chapter: 501 (DBZ 307), P11.6
Context: Goku asks how long Potara-based fusion lasts
Elder Kaioshin: "The Potara don't have such a weakness. It's eternal! You'll never return to normal again!"


If that isn't enough:

Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P1.3
Context: Goku asks if he should become a Super Saiyan before merging with the Potara, and Elder Kaioshin advices against it
Elder Kaioshin: “If you’re going to become a Super Saiyan, it’s better to do it after merging. But anyway, even without doing that, you’ll probably be plee~~eenty. The Potara’s power is just that amazing!


The potara's power is just that amazing. If the fusion dance had the same result, why would potara be emphasized?

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Re: Is Vegito vastly superior to Gogeta or only slightly?

Post by Truhan » Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:49 pm

I never thought that simple feats and statements would be met with so much character psychology and guessing of the author's intent, to the point where it's getting ridiculous.

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Re: Is Vegito vastly superior to Gogeta or only slightly?

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:51 pm

Ridiculous? You do realize writing in lines for the reader to simply blow-off or to misinform your reader is not good storytelling, right?

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