Buu's power when he absorbs somebody

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Truhan
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Re: Buu's power when he absorbs somebody

Post by Truhan » Fri Nov 06, 2015 5:25 pm

Darkprince410 wrote:No, that doesn't work at all though given everything that's established and shown within the manga. We're initially told through Rou Kaioushin that every time Buu absorbs someone, it results in a form change and an increase in strength. Kibitoshin does not counter or correct this at all, so, at the time that he states this, that's a straight fact that has no counters. Then, come Kibitoshin's explanation of Buu's past, he specifically indicates that Dai Kaioushin affected Buu in a way differently than normal, breezing past the explanation of South Kaioushin as if nothing about it was different than usual. Therefore, given that information, in combination with what we're shown, South Kaioushin Buu cannot be weaker than Pure Buu or Evil Buu.
When did Rou Kaioshin said that Buu gains strength with his absorptions? Because if it were in a context of Buu against Gotenks and Gohan, it would still help my case, and not contradict that both Kais have suppressed Buu indeed. According to my logic, any power above 100 gives Buu some strength, hence why South Kaioshin and Dai Kaioshin are only 80 and 50. That's the way I framed them, but if you want to frame yours, then go ahead. I can make Buff Buu stronger than both Kid Buu and Super Buu, but South Kaioshin would be twice as strong as a SSJ2, which seems highly unlikely.

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Re: Buu's power when he absorbs somebody

Post by Hitiro » Fri Nov 06, 2015 5:30 pm

Truhan wrote:I'm not going to read through all that. Learn to be straighter to the point. In the mean time, I have made up my mind. Buff Buu was only gathering Ki, and losing his suppression to become Kid Buu. Super Buu > Kid Buu > Buff Buu, because Super Buu is the concatenation of two Buus with one Kai each, instead of having both suppressing one body. Therefore:

Super Buu - 640
Kid Buu - 400
Evil/Buff Buu - 320
Good Buu - 200
Fat Buu - 160

South Kai - 80
Dai Kai - 50

It works beautifully, trust me :wink:
Ki is the pegging post for all stats in the manga. Buff Boo's Ki was larger than Evil(Super) Boo's. So no, this doesn't work. It would actually look something like this:

Buff Boo - 700 (Literally just Pure Boo + South Kaioshin.)
Evil Boo - 640 (Weaker due to minor influence from Dai Kaioshin presence.)
Pure Boo - 400
Pure Evil(Grey) Boo - 400 (Would be a manifestation of Pure Boo's original power.)
Fat Boo - 380 (Much weaker due to major influence from Dai Kaioshin Presence.)
Good Boo - 100 (Fits pretty well as Pure Boo is supposed to be on par with SSJ3 Goku with SSJ3 Goku being just a little stronger and SSJ2 Vegeta which is directly 4x weaker than SSJ3 Goku managed to get attacks in. Boo just did a better job because he had regen.)

South Kaishin - 300(South Kaioshin would have to be fairly close to Pure Boo to put up enough of a good fight for Pure Boo to feel the need to absorb him.)
Dai Kaioshin - 100
Truhan wrote:When did Rou Kaioshin said that Buu gains strength with his absorptions? Because if it were in a context of Buu against Gotenks and Gohan, it would still help my case, and not contradict that both Kais have suppressed Buu indeed. According to my logic, any power above 100 gives Buu some strength, hence why South Kaioshin and Dai Kaioshin are only 80 and 50. That's the way I framed them, but if you want to frame yours, then go ahead. I can make Buff Buu stronger than both Kid Buu and Super Buu, but South Kaioshin would be twice as strong as a SSJ2, which seems highly unlikely.
The South Kaioshin would have to be pretty strong for Boo to even think of absorbing him in the first place. It is highly likely that South Kaioshin was able to back Pure Boo into a corner to force Pure Boo to absorb him. Furthermore there would be no reason for Boo to absorb the Dai Kaioshin afterwards if South Kaioshin made him weaker. Boo would be like "I don't want to get weaker!" Even animals understand when something is bad for them and avoid experiencing it again. South Kaioshin must have been a positive for Boo to try and absorb another person.
Last edited by Hitiro on Fri Nov 06, 2015 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Buu's power when he absorbs somebody

Post by manwolf » Fri Nov 06, 2015 5:33 pm

In dragon ball ki is divided in three aspects: body, mind and spirit.

I think that the body part of Buu cannot change cause he is very strong, but her mind and spirit can change, the first cause he is a mindless creature and the second cause he is a pure evil guy.

When Buu absorbs the South Kai they fuses their mindset so the result receives a lot of powers of the Kai, the Kai are good being but the amount of power Buu receives outclass the clash between good and bad, but when Buu absorbs Dai Kai the good outclass the increase in intelligence and the result loses power.

When the first good Buu becomes angry he channels bad feelings and he unseal the bad powers the good in the Kais seal, at one point Buu divides, one with the good spirit in the Kais and the other with evil spirit in the original Kai, the result have the mind of the Kais and the evil spirit in the original Buu minus the power to seal good Buu, the good Buu in the capsule have the intelligence of the Kais plus the goodness in the Kais.

When super Buu absorves Gotenks and Piccolo he receives the intelligence in Piccolo plus the super spirit of Gotenks that he loses when Gotenks defuse, but he absorbs Gohan with the same or more super spirit.

When loses Good Buu he begin to increases cause he doesn't need to suppress Good Buu but he also loses his intelligence so he become a mindless creature.

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Re: Buu's power when he absorbs somebody

Post by Truhan » Fri Nov 06, 2015 5:35 pm

Hitiro, I see no valuable relationship between those numbers. Most of them are arbitrary (as are mine)... At least establish a good formula and go through with it. By the way, don't you think it's strange that, despite South Kaioshin and Dai Kaioshin being that strong, the Z sword was never pulled?

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Re: Buu's power when he absorbs somebody

Post by Hitiro » Fri Nov 06, 2015 5:46 pm

Truhan wrote:Hitiro, I see no valuable relationship between those numbers. Most of them are arbitrary (as are mine)... At least establish a good formula and go through with it. By the way, don't you think it's strange that, despite South Kaioshin and Dai Kaioshin being that strong, the Z sword was never pulled?
400 is a pegging post to compare against SSJ3 Goku because the Daizenshuu has the SSJ3 multiplier as 400. The Dai Kaioshin I put as around as strong as a SSJ2 because Good Boo is pretty much Dai Kaioshin in the end. South Kaioshin I put at 300 because while I don't believe he is stronger than Pure Boo he gave him enough trouble to force Pure Boo to absorb him. And I don't see why pulling the Z sword needs to necessarily be a point of contention. There are numerous factors we could assume as to why these characters couldn't or didn't pull it. For one the Dai Kaioshin and South Kaioshin saw no reason to pull the sword.

Or possibly the stats that were amplified by their Ki were low to begin with so while they had huge amounts of Ki they didn't have the necessary stats to pull out the sword. We already had Piccolo point out that Evil Boo's body is suited for battle so that shows that their physical attributes and stats have a weighting against their Ki. Look at Dende. While he could have a battle power rivalling another character that doesn't mean he could win against the opponent because he isn't a "Fighter." It could just be that both the Dai Kaioshin and South Kaioshin excelled in Ki based techniques. Like how the East Kaioshin could do Ki blows against Fat Boo despite being below SSJ tier. It could also be a racial benefit of the Saiyans. They were genetically superior to most races in the universe. They had to be to survive on a planet with 10x Earth's Gravity. How else would Goku survive while being born with a pitiful battle power?

For example, the Saiyan's durability has been a plot point many times throughout the manga. They are deemed incredibly tough by other races standards. Goku has won a fair few matches because his durability has exceeded those of similar power to him. Meanwhile if you look at someone like Boo who literally has no durability at all and can easily have bullets pass through him or take blows which dent his body from much weaker opponents then you can see his stats are much different from a Saiyans.
Last edited by Hitiro on Fri Nov 06, 2015 5:51 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: Buu's power when he absorbs somebody

Post by Darkprince410 » Fri Nov 06, 2015 5:47 pm

Truhan wrote:Hitiro, I see no valuable relationship between those numbers. Most of them are arbitrary (as are mine)... At least establish a good formula and go through with it. By the way, don't you think it's strange that, despite South Kaioshin and Dai Kaioshin being that strong, the Z sword was never pulled?
Why would they care to? The Z Sword was meant to give the individual incredible power in some non-explicit fashion. Why would the Kaioushin, especially South Kaioushin, who, apart from Buu, Beerus, and Whis, care to bother to pull out the sword during a general time of peace? Until Buu's arrival, there's no indication of them ever coming across any individual that was even remotely threatening to their strength, so it'd be unnecessary for them to try.
Truhan wrote:
When did Rou Kaioshin said that Buu gains strength with his absorptions? Because if it were in a context of Buu against Gotenks and Gohan, it would still help my case, and not contradict that both Kais have suppressed Buu indeed. According to my logic, any power above 100 gives Buu some strength, hence why South Kaioshin and Dai Kaioshin are only 80 and 50. That's the way I framed them, but if you want to frame yours, then go ahead. I can make Buff Buu stronger than both Kid Buu and Super Buu, but South Kaioshin would be twice as strong as a SSJ2, which seems highly unlikely.
It was after Vegetto had been absorbed, but there was no change to Buu's appearance or strength. Rou Kaioushin specifically points out that every time he's absorbed a warrior up to that point, he's changed his appearance and his power has gone up. Kibitoshin, in turn, acts surprised that there is no change. Later, when Kibitoshin is explaining Buu's past, he only mentions that Dai Kaioushin's absorption acted differently from the norm, meaning that South Kaioushin's didn't act differently from the norm, and thus it had to have raised his strength.

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Re: Buu's power when he absorbs somebody

Post by Truhan » Fri Nov 06, 2015 6:00 pm

I appreciate the philosophy and the character analysis, but I'll stick to what I said. If you can't frame and work with your information, just sit back and wait for anyone productive enough to enjoy being nitpicked apart, because I'm leaving this section of the forum. As a last note, the text/calculator game I'm working on will have two Buus at your disposal: Super Buu and Fat Buu, the first to absorb any other fighter, and the second to have fixed transformations, as he releases Dai Kaioshin and South Kaioshin. Super Saiyans will come in two types as well: Graded and Numbered, the first allowing you to power strength, speed and stamina individually, while the second multiplies your power across all attributes (SSJ2 and SSJ3). It's just background to my thought process...

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Re: Buu's power when he absorbs somebody

Post by Hitiro » Fri Nov 06, 2015 6:37 pm

Truhan wrote:I appreciate the philosophy and the character analysis, but I'll stick to what I said. If you can't frame and work with your information, just sit back and wait for anyone productive enough to enjoy being nitpicked apart, because I'm leaving this section of the forum. As a last note, the text/calculator game I'm working on will have two Buus at your disposal: Super Buu and Fat Buu, the first to absorb any other fighter, and the second to have fixed transformations, as he releases Dai Kaioshin and South Kaioshin. Super Saiyans will come in two types as well: Graded and Numbered, the first allowing you to power strength, speed and stamina individually, while the second multiplies your power across all attributes (SSJ2 and SSJ3). It's just background to my thought process...
Statements like this make no sense. It just seems you're blowing off other peoples points with generic comments like "If you can't frame and work with your information." You've been given several reasons as to why your information doesn't really work and you've not really provided anything to back up your points. I, as well as Darkprince410, have given plenty of points that can back up our claims. I mean it is fine for you to have a differing opinion but statements like the one you just provided are really unnecessary. Especially when the statement means literally nothing as we have done exactly what you say we haven't done.

If you're going to discuss things you're going to have to back up your points with reasonable points and evidence to support your theories. You asked me why they didn't pull the Z sword and I gave you two reasons as to why they didn't. Both vary possible. I even went ahead and provided extra evidence to support my claim with the varying stats theory. Darkprince410 covered the "They didn't feel it necessary" point I suggested. I would like to pose a few questions to you and see why you think these are viable with your theories.

1. Why did Pure Boo absorb South Kaioshin if, in your theory, he is merely a 80 compared to Pure Boo's 400?

2. If South Kaioshin negatively effected Boo then why would he absorb again and absorb a weaker person at that? I think it stands to reason that if South Kaioshin positively effected Boo then he would be more inclined to absorb again.

3. Goku noticed Boo's Ki increasing when he transformed into Buff Boo. For that to be the case then Buff Boo > Evil(Super) Boo. Yet in your list you have him listed as weaker? Why? I could understand if you had Pure Boo above Evil Boo because of something like his Ki didn't drop after Goku noticed Boo's Ki increase when he became Buff Boo. But your logic doesn't make sense if Pure Boo is below Evil Boo because an increase in Ki would suggest Buff Boo is superior to Pure Boo just by being superior to Evil Boo. In fact, Goku and Vegeta were worried when his Ki increased.

4. Why was Goku and Vegeta worried about this if he is lower than Pure Boo on your list which Goku and Vegeta were more than happy to fight against?

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Re: Buu's power when he absorbs somebody

Post by Truhan » Fri Nov 06, 2015 7:23 pm

Hitiro wrote:Statements like this make no sense. It just seems you're blowing off other peoples points with generic comments like "If you can't frame and work with your information." You've been given several reasons as to why your information doesn't really work and you've not really provided anything to back up your points. I, as well as Darkprince410, have given plenty of points that can back up our claims. I mean it is fine for you to have a differing opinion but statements like the one you just provided are really unnecessary. Especially when the statement means literally nothing as we have done exactly what you say we haven't done.

If you're going to discuss things you're going to have to back up your points with reasonable points and evidence to support your theories. You asked me why they didn't pull the Z sword and I gave you two reasons as to why they didn't. Both vary possible. I even went ahead and provided extra evidence to support my claim with the varying stats theory. Darkprince410 covered the "They didn't feel it necessary" point I suggested. I would like to pose a few questions to you and see why you think these are viable with your theories.

1. Why did Pure Boo absorb South Kaioshin if, in your theory, he is merely a 80 compared to Pure Boo's 400?

2. If South Kaioshin negatively effected Boo then why would he absorb again and absorb a weaker person at that? I think it stands to reason that if South Kaioshin positively effected Boo then he would be more inclined to absorb again.

3. Goku noticed Boo's Ki increasing when he transformed into Buff Boo. For that to be the case then Buff Boo > Evil(Super) Boo. Yet in your list you have him listed as weaker? Why? I could understand if you had Pure Boo above Evil Boo because of something like his Ki didn't drop after Goku noticed Boo's Ki increase when he became Buff Boo. But your logic doesn't make sense if Pure Boo is below Evil Boo because an increase in Ki would suggest Buff Boo is superior to Pure Boo just by being superior to Evil Boo. In fact, Goku and Vegeta were worried when his Ki increased.

4. Why was Goku and Vegeta worried about this if he is lower than Pure Boo on your list which Goku and Vegeta were more than happy to fight against?
I'm going to answer this as a whole, but I haven't considered it before for a reason: you're restless, and won't stop with the psichology of the characters, guessing of the authors' intent, and whatever we're supposed to take in without questions. I'm basing my view on what happened, no matter if it's senseless or unreasonable, which for Dragon Ball is already a given.
1. Kid Buu absorbed South Kaioshin and Dai Kaioshin, lowering his power (I'm no longer making a distinction between it and strength), as stated by Kibitoshin.
2. He just did, period. I'm not interested in analyzing a character who has been depicted as wreckless, although you could say that his soul was tamed and forced to do it.
3. The list encompasses power in terms of attributes, not the Ki amount, which can increase or decrease without affecting Buu's power. How both Kais put a dent on it, I don't know.
4. They made a comment about his size, and then were caught by surprise with his sphere. Goku said that he couldn't stop that attack, so their happiness quickly faded.

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Re: Buu's power when he absorbs somebody

Post by Darkprince410 » Fri Nov 06, 2015 7:45 pm

Truhan wrote: I'm going to answer this as a whole, but I haven't considered it before for a reason: you're restless, and won't stop with the psichology of the characters, guessing of the authors' intent, and whatever we're supposed to take in without questions. I'm basing my view on what happened, no matter if it's senseless or unreasonable, which for Dragon Ball is already a given.
1. Kid Buu absorbed South Kaioshin and Dai Kaioshin, lowering his power (I'm no longer making a distinction between it and strength), as stated by Kibitoshin.
2. He just did, period. I'm not interested in analyzing a character who has been depicted as wreckless, although you could say that his soul was tamed and forced to do it.
3. The list encompasses power in terms of attributes, not the Ki amount, which can increase or decrease without affecting Buu's power. How both Kais put a dent on it, I don't know.
4. They made a comment about his size, and then were caught by surprise with his sphere. Goku said that he couldn't stop that attack, so their happiness quickly faded.
1) Only Dai Kaioushin weakened his power. South Kaioushin was established not to have affected him differently than the normal.

3) You're assuming a range of attributes that aren't mentioned or suggested at all. Given that South Kaioushin Buu doesn't fight at any point that we're shown, it's readily possible that everything could have been augmented. Speed, strength, etc. What we are told is there was a ki increase, which has always, in the past, been tied to a strength increase. With nothing saying that other attributes dropped or anything strange like that, assuming that they did is irrelevant.

4) Only Vegeta made a comment about his size. Goku's shown time and again that he doesn't take into account an individual's physical appearance if he can sense their strength. You say that you don't want us guessing Toriyama's intent, when you're the one guessing that Goku's comment was in regards to Buu's size, when everything points to it being in relation to what he is actually sensing, and not just seeing.

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Re: Buu's power when he absorbs somebody

Post by Hitiro » Fri Nov 06, 2015 7:52 pm

Truhan wrote:I'm going to answer this as a whole, but I haven't considered it before for a reason: you're restless, and won't stop with the psichology of the characters, guessing of the authors' intent, and whatever we're supposed to take in without questions. I'm basing my view on what happened, no matter if it's senseless or unreasonable, which for Dragon Ball is already a given.
1. Kid Buu absorbed South Kaioshin and Dai Kaioshin, lowering his power (I'm no longer making a distinction between it and strength), as stated by Kibitoshin.
Kibitioshin only stated that the Dai Kaioshin weakened him. There is nothing to suggest South Kaioshin weakened him. You're the one guessing the Author's intent here.
Truhan wrote:2. He just did, period. I'm not interested in analyzing a character who has been depicted as wreckless, although you could say that his soul was tamed and forced to do it.
If he "just did" then you're guessing the author's intent again. There must be a reason for him to absorb a character who would effect him negatively if you think South Kaioshin effected him negatively. But that is illogical.
Truhan wrote:3. The list encompasses power in terms of attributes, not the Ki amount, which can increase or decrease without affecting Buu's power. How both Kais put a dent on it, I don't know.
The only thing Pure Boo could possibly be superior to Buff Boo in is speed. Anything other than that is guess work or guessing the author's intent yet again. His Ki is stated to have increased. That would increase his stats overall given the evidence of the story. We also know that excessive muscle mass hinders speed. So again. You're guessing the authors intent here.
Truhan wrote:4. They made a comment about his size, and then were caught by surprise with his sphere. Goku said that he couldn't stop that attack, so their happiness quickly faded.
Incorrect, only Vegeta made a comment about his size. Goku merely said "We did it!" given the context of this their goal was to decrease Boo's power to something they could handle. Goku's aim was not to shrink Boo's size. And yes. Goku couldn't stop the attack. He was only a SSJ. By the time he made the transition to SSJ3 the ball would have already killed them. So that is a null point.

For a guy who claims that he is just basing his view on what happens you're are guessing the author's intent a lot. Even going so far as to ignore dialogue or actions that clearly suggest Buff Boo is superior to any other Boo not involving a Saiyan's absorption.

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Re: Buu's power when he absorbs somebody

Post by Truhan » Fri Nov 06, 2015 7:55 pm

Darkprince410 wrote:1) Only Dai Kaioushin weakened his power. South Kaioushin was established not to have affected him differently than the normal.

3) You're assuming a range of attributes that aren't mentioned or suggested at all. Given that South Kaioushin Buu doesn't fight at any point that we're shown, it's readily possible that everything could have been augmented. Speed, strength, etc. What we are told is there was a ki increase, which has always, in the past, been tied to a strength increase. With nothing saying that other attributes dropped or anything strange like that, assuming that they did is irrelevant.

4) Only Vegeta made a comment about his size. Goku's shown time and again that he doesn't take into account an individual's physical appearance if he can sense their strength. You say that you don't want us guessing Toriyama's intent, when you're the one guessing that Goku's comment was in regards to Buu's size, when everything points to it being in relation to what he is actually sensing, and not just seeing.
1. Than normal? Let's start by his clothes not changing through absorption, according to the Rou Kaioshin knowledge you're clinging to.
3. Vegeta took a hit in terms of Ki to create an artificial moon, and yet his strength increased 10 fold. Goku needed to power up to sustain SSJ3, without apparent gains.
4. Again, why with the character psichology? Just follow the events: Vegeta makes a comment about his size, and Goku follows through it (apparently), which is confirmed by his surprise towards Kid Buu's sphere. If he had been following Buu's rising Ki all along, how surprised should Goku be about it?

Oh, and Hitiro, let's not make this personal. It's the last I'll reply to you.

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Re: Buu's power when he absorbs somebody

Post by Hitiro » Fri Nov 06, 2015 8:06 pm

Truhan wrote:1. Than normal? Let's start by his clothes not changing through absorption, according to the Rou Kaioshin knowledge you're clinging to.
3. Vegeta took a hit in terms of Ki to create an artificial moon, and yet his strength increased 10 fold. Goku needed to power up to sustain SSJ3, without apparent gains.
4. Again, why with the character psichology? Just follow the events: Vegeta makes a comment about his size, and Goku follows through it (apparently), which is confirmed by his surprise towards Kid Buu's sphere. If he had been following Buu's rising Ki all along, how surprised should Goku be about it?

Oh, and Hitiro, let's not make this personal. It's the last I'll reply to you.
I'm not making this personal. I'm just pointing out the flaw in your argument. You keep telling us that it is us who are "guessing the Author's intent" or "using character psychology." Yet you are doing exactly what you are claiming we're doing. You're also ignoring things that we see in the story like Goku and Vegeta panicking when Evil Boo becomes Buff Boo. Your argument is pretty flimsy at best right now.

And as for Vegeta taking a hit in terms of Ki to create an artificial moon and yet his strength increased 10 fold. What is your point with that? The transformation amplifies your Ki by 10 fold. So whatever Vegeta lost when creating the artificial moon is going to pale in comparison if his remaining Ki is amplified by 10x. And Goku's gains are tied to how much Ki he as. If the SSJ3 transformation is guzzling all his Ki before he can push it to 100% and maintain it at that level he isn't going to have any gains, now is he?

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