The gap between SSJ3 Gotenks & Mystic Gohan

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Re: The gap between SSJ3 Gotenks & Mystic Gohan

Post by Darkprince410 » Sat Nov 07, 2015 1:33 am

AvatarReiko wrote:
Darkprince410 wrote: However, Buu received no legitimate damage from him whatsoever, as he was able to regenerate from it soon after being damaged.
Except he did. Gotenks' mouth blast damaged Buu and the latter was even shown to be frustarted afterwards(as well as other parts of the fight, to where even Piccolo commented on it), which is just one of many examples. Gotenks then proceeded to wail on Buu, so bad that the latter couldn't even counter, and lefft him cripped and covered entirely in bruises.
Darkprince410 wrote: Likewise, in contrast to the Goku vs. Cell fight, Buu wasn't wanting to inflict any real damage on Gotenks at all
I already addressed this above. Buu could have simply suppressed his Pl to a level where Gotenks could keep up with him but big enough that he could still control the fight. Hence, him not getting beaten black and blue. Furthermore, he only needed to put enough power into his attacks to KO Gotenks, not kill. Cell could have killed Goku pretty easily had he started out with his full power, but he surppressed himself so that Goku could keep up, while at same time, leaving a big enough gap so he could still control the fight.

Darkprince410 wrote: He knew that Gotenks didn't have much more time left in his fusion, so he let himself get beaten around a bit for what was generally superficial damage until he fell out of Ssj3 and then de-fused.

Gotenks was shown to have the slighty upper hand even before he knew about the fusion.
Darkprince410 wrote: It wasn't that he simply wanted to drag the fight out. He wanted to drag the fight out while keeping Gotenks as a viable and suitable source of power if he needed to absorb him.
Adressed above. No one is saying he had to kill him. He could have used attacks that were aimed to incapacitate. Saiyans can be very persitent and they know how to take a beating. And as I said above, he could have dragged it out without letting himself get pummelled.
He could sense Gohan's ki building from the get go, so from the very start of it all, he had no incentive to just go all out on Gotenks, before or after learning of the time limit on the fusion. Besides, as said before, the damage that Buu took was superficial and something he could easily regenerate from, so why would he necessarily need to fight at a level where it could actually injure Gotenks as a result? He can sit there, take the hits knowing they're not doing actual, legitimate damage, and leave Gotenks essentially damage free for a backup should he need to absorb him for fighting Gohan.

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Re: The gap between SSJ3 Gotenks & Mystic Gohan

Post by Jeff Styles » Sat Nov 07, 2015 1:52 am

Darkprince410 wrote:
Jeff Styles wrote:Goten says Gohan is only a little stronger than Gotenks.Yet Gohan was punching the stuffing out Evil Boo, phyiscal attacks that will cripple him if he was made up of flesh and bones.
1.33x gap between Gotenks and Gohan.Gotenks only hope in winning is if he caught Gohan off guard by using his Ghost Kamikaze Attack.If SSJ Gotenks can damage Evil Boo who is 8x stronger than him in that form, destroying Gohan will be easier since he can't regenerate.
No, that was Trunks that said that Gotenks was only "a little" stronger, and that was simply to save face. He initially commented that Gohan might almost be as strong as Super Gotenks, only for Goten to interject and say that Gohan is stronger. Trunks, being one to try and be cool whenever he could, tried to downplay the difference between them then by saying that he was only just a bit stronger, without there being any real sincerity to his comment.
Chapter: 498 (DBZ 304), P7.4-5
Context: after Boo disappears
Trunks: “Even if he really is still alive, it doesn’t matter! That jerk was helpless against Gohan! [Gohan] was about as strong as our Super Gotenks!”
Goten: “He was even stronger.”
Trunks: “Really? …Yeah…Just a little bit.”
Given Piccolo's statements on the comparison between Ssj3 Gotenks and Evil Buu, the difference between Gohan and Gotenks is at least the same as the difference between Gohan and base Evil Buu, if not moreso given the revelation that Evil Buu may have been intentionally drawing out the fight for if he needed Gotenks once Gohan arrived.
I can't believe I forgot about that small dialogue.
Evil Boo was dragging out the fight after Gotenks told him, he can only stays this strong for a little longer.He got lucky that Gotenks didn't erase him before his SSJ3 wore off.

Boo didn't wants to believe someone was superior to him until he ended up getting stomps.

Ultimate Gohan>>SSJ3 Gotenks~Evil Boo

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Re: The gap between SSJ3 Gotenks & Mystic Gohan

Post by Blade » Sat Nov 07, 2015 3:34 am

OWmyDragonBallz wrote:Then this Battle of Gods stuff ruined the power consistency.
Sort of - I mean, even the JSAT Special implies that Goku and Vegeta are stronger than Gotenks, but for some reason that tends to get ignored.

The in-universe logic in Battle of Gods undid around 20 years of fan-theories and official join-the-dots guidebook statements, but I think that was kind of inevitable. I mean, it's much easier to analyse a static fixture than a moving object, and until 2012, in regards to story progression at least, the Dragonball Franchise was very much the former.
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Re: The gap between SSJ3 Gotenks & Mystic Gohan

Post by AvatarReiko » Sat Nov 07, 2015 7:31 am

Darkprince410 wrote:
AvatarReiko wrote:
Darkprince410 wrote: However, Buu received no legitimate damage from him whatsoever, as he was able to regenerate from it soon after being damaged.
Except he did. Gotenks' mouth blast damaged Buu and the latter was even shown to be frustarted afterwards(as well as other parts of the fight, to where even Piccolo commented on it), which is just one of many examples. Gotenks then proceeded to wail on Buu, so bad that the latter couldn't even counter, and lefft him cripped and covered entirely in bruises.
Darkprince410 wrote: Likewise, in contrast to the Goku vs. Cell fight, Buu wasn't wanting to inflict any real damage on Gotenks at all
I already addressed this above. Buu could have simply suppressed his Pl to a level where Gotenks could keep up with him but big enough that he could still control the fight. Hence, him not getting beaten black and blue. Furthermore, he only needed to put enough power into his attacks to KO Gotenks, not kill. Cell could have killed Goku pretty easily had he started out with his full power, but he surppressed himself so that Goku could keep up, while at same time, leaving a big enough gap so he could still control the fight.

Darkprince410 wrote: He knew that Gotenks didn't have much more time left in his fusion, so he let himself get beaten around a bit for what was generally superficial damage until he fell out of Ssj3 and then de-fused.

Gotenks was shown to have the slighty upper hand even before he knew about the fusion.
Darkprince410 wrote: It wasn't that he simply wanted to drag the fight out. He wanted to drag the fight out while keeping Gotenks as a viable and suitable source of power if he needed to absorb him.
Adressed above. No one is saying he had to kill him. He could have used attacks that were aimed to incapacitate. Saiyans can be very persitent and they know how to take a beating. And as I said above, he could have dragged it out without letting himself get pummelled.
He could sense Gohan's ki building from the get go, so from the very start of it all, he had no incentive to just go all out on Gotenks, before or after learning of the time limit on the fusion.

Whoever said that he needs to go all out. He doesnt have to.

Besides, as said before, the damage that Buu took was superficial and something he could easily regenerate from

Buu was shown to be frustrated at several points during their fight because Gotenks beating the snot out of him. Piccolo even states this himself, that Buu is angry because he is fighting someone at least on par with himself. Gotenks' attacks were clearly taking their toll on hum physcally and mentally.

so why would he necessarily need to fight at a level where it could actually injure Gotenks as a result?

As long as he does not kill him, it is fine. All he has to do is hold back on attacks that kill him.

He can sit there, take the hits knowing they're not doing actual, legitimate damage, and leave Gotenks essentially damage free for a backup should he need to absorb him for fighting Gohan.

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Re: The gap between SSJ3 Gotenks & Mystic Gohan

Post by AvatarReiko » Sat Nov 07, 2015 7:47 am

He could sense Gohan's ki building from the get go, so from the very start of it all, he had no incentive to just go all out on Gotenks, before or after learning of the time limit on the fusion.

Whoever said that he needs to go all out. He doesnt have to. He just needs to limit himself that to where he and Gotenks are almost equal.

Besides, as said before, the damage that Buu took was superficial and something he could easily regenerate from

Buu was shown to be frustrated at several points during their fight because Gotenks beating the snot out of him. Piccolo even states this himself, that Buu is angry because he is fighting someone "at least on par with himself". Gotenks' attacks were taking their toll on him both physcally and mentally and he was clearly hurt by them. You say he could easily regenerate from the attacks but the opposite was actually shown. After Gotenks fires his mouth blast, he proceeds to wail on him and beats him so bad that Buu was left physically deformed and it is not until after Gotenks splits that buu is able to recover.

so why would he necessarily need to fight at a level where it could actually injure Gotenks as a result?

It does not matter if he injures him, as long as he does not kill him. As I said, saiyans are persitent and all Buu would need to do is hold back enough on his attacks that they don't kill him. Much like how Goku can punch Krillin in the face without taking his whole in head off. Or better yet, avoid using lethal attacks all-togther. Again, fighting at level near him would have dragged it out just as much as it would if Buu had sat there and let Gotenks wail on him(which would involve him taking a beating for not reason), and also would have given Gotenks the illusion that he stood an equal chance of winning.

He can sit there, take the hits knowing they're not doing actual, legitimate damage, and leave Gotenks essentially damage free for a backup should he need to absorb him for fighting Gohan.

Why would you opt to take a serious beating and endure a lot pain when you don't have to? That does not make any sense to me.

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Re: The gap between SSJ3 Gotenks & Mystic Gohan

Post by Truhan » Sat Nov 07, 2015 7:58 am

Blade wrote:
OWmyDragonBallz wrote:Then this Battle of Gods stuff ruined the power consistency.
Sort of - I mean, even the JSAT Special implies that Goku and Vegeta are stronger than Gotenks, but for some reason that tends to get ignored.

The in-universe logic in Battle of Gods undid around 20 years of fan-theories and official join-the-dots guidebook statements, but I think that was kind of inevitable. I mean, it's much easier to analyse a static fixture than a moving object, and until 2012, in regards to story progression at least, the Dragonball Franchise was very much the former.
It doesn't have to be that farfetched. I only have Gotenks 1.6 stronger than Goku or Vegeta in the Buu saga, from which time had passed to allow the latter to surpass him. Mystic Gohan as well, but only SSJ3 Goku would close that gap. If the 2008 Special and BoG show anything, then it's the shift in direction of the franchise, of which I am glad, because I honestly didn't buy the new generation as the strongest*. There's always Vegeta surpassing SSJ3 Goku as a gag scene, but it can be cleaned under the rug, except for DBS' reinterpretation that placed too much emphasis on his power, which was unnecessary.

*It takes one generation of talentless folks to breed the new generation of talent, and while "talentless" is a bit harsh, I only expect Uub and Pan to be written as better than Gohan and Gotenks.

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Re: The gap between SSJ3 Gotenks & Mystic Gohan

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat Nov 07, 2015 10:15 am

Blade wrote:
OWmyDragonBallz wrote:Then this Battle of Gods stuff ruined the power consistency.
Sort of - I mean, even the JSAT Special implies that Goku and Vegeta are stronger than Gotenks, but for some reason that tends to get ignored.

The in-universe logic in Battle of Gods undid around 20 years of fan-theories and official join-the-dots guidebook statements, but I think that was kind of inevitable. I mean, it's much easier to analyse a static fixture than a moving object, and until 2012, in regards to story progression at least, the Dragonball Franchise was very much the former.
Well, JSAT/BoG/Super don't force the idea that SS3 Goku & SS2 Vegeta are stronger than U. Gohan & SS/3 Gotenks:
  • Gotenks goes Super Saiyan against Aka, yet SS Goku is the one that was forced to defeat him.
    • Either SS Goku is stronger than SS Gotenks, or
    • Gotenks was just fucking around, he transformed into a Super Saiyan to look cool, and after Aka started destroying the whole place, Goku took it seriously and took him out.
  • Vegeta says that after Goku defeated Majin Boo there should be no doubts that he should be #1, that he acknowledged him as the strongest Saiyan, and that while he is #2, one day he will surpass Goku and everyone in the universe, and will become the supreme #1.
    • Either Vegeta means that Goku is the strongest of all Saiyans, both full-blooded & Halflings, and believes in the possibility that there may be other more powerful guys in the universe, or
    • Since Vegeta says that he acknowledged Goku as the strongest Saiyan, not that he is the strongest Saiyan, and since a factor for considering him was the defeat of Majin Boo, which wasn't accomplished because Goku had the highest battle power, he could mean that Goku is the best fighter (like in his #1 speech in the manga), not the strongest in the sense that he has the biggest battle power (and Goku & Vegeta truly are better fighters that Gohan & Gotenks).
  • Kaio says that no one must annoy Beerus, and that SS3 Goku was defeated by 2 blows, which makes Vegeta panic.
    • Either Vegeta got paniced because Goku was the strongest and got defeated, or
    • Vegeta got paniced because after hearing about Goku, he believed Kaio saying that no one must touch Beerus, meaning that Beerus is stronger than everyone on Earth.
  • Vegeta fought better that Gohan & Gotenks against Beerus.
    • Either Vegeta is stronger than them, or
    • Beerus wasn't interested in Gohan & Gotenks because they annoyed him, so he instantly KOed them, but took interest in Vegeta, who challenged him without annoying him. We know that supressed Beerus' power varied, since if he was hitting everyone with the same strength, half of them would have died.
It works both ways.
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Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: The gap between SSJ3 Gotenks & Mystic Gohan

Post by Truhan » Sat Nov 07, 2015 10:29 am

I don't like the whole Goku is only the #1 Saiyan, because it reeks of pedantry. Shenron made no distinction between Saiyans and Half-saiyans that were necessary to pull off the SSJG ritual, and yet it took place. Don't think too much about the #1 comment, it doesn't mean a thing in the context of strength, because when it's all said and done, Buu was only defeated by the Genki-dama. Besides, the Daizenshuu statement concerning Kid Buu's strength is true on many levels:
- Super Buu and his absorptions didn't exist at the time;
- Gohan didn't power up nor did Gotenks appear again;
- Full Power SSJ3 Goku was not accomplished, nor was Vegetto.

Or maybe, we shouldn't look too much into it, and enjoy Dragon Ball for the new heights it's taking us to.

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Re: The gap between SSJ3 Gotenks & Mystic Gohan

Post by buutenks » Sat Nov 07, 2015 12:46 pm

ssj3 gotenks and super buu are equals,with perhaps ssj3 gotenks having an edge.Gohan is 1.5 x stronger than either of them.Since buutenks trashed gohan and gohan trashed super buu its safe to assume that the power gap between them was similar.

As for bog,it takes place some years after Buu saga,so goku had time to train some more.Plus u can see in bog both movie and anime that goku doesnt have any issues in ssj3 form,so he clearly mastered it.I'm sure goku managed to get close to gotenks and gohan(perhaps) but he didnt surpass them(well gohan anyways).this is evident in how beerus takes them out.ssj3 goku beerus finger flicks him and taps him on the neck koing him,while vs gohan he uses his whole hand and in the movie he kicks him.So its pretty clear that bog gohan>>ssj3 goku,gotenks idk.However even so for someone to take out ssj3 goku with 2 hits its very impressive,so vegeta had a reason to be concerned.

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Re: The gap between SSJ3 Gotenks & Mystic Gohan

Post by Tectorman » Sun Nov 08, 2015 1:19 pm

Darkprince410 wrote:I personally don't see how it really could be taken that way. Trunks has, time and again, been the one always pushing for "coolness", being the one to suggest they intentionally drag on the fight with Evil Buu in their weaker forms just to make it look more spectacular, and then jump to their "secret" form towards the end. Goten though has shown a good deal more level-headedness toward the matter. It would be perfectly in character for Trunks to try and play up Gotenks' strength in comparison to Gohan, and then try to save face when corrected.
True, but I also remember a scene during the tournament (I think it was right after they'd taken Mighty Mask's costume and dressed themselves up in it) where Trunks and Goten are arguing who would win out of their two fathers. I think Goten's line was "But Gohan said my dad was the strongest in the world."

That's it. Gohan says so, so that's what Goten argues from. Not what he's seen or sensed (has he even had an opportunity to see his father in action yet?). He's ready to get into with Trunks totally based on what amounts to hearsay, at least as far as he's concerned. But it's hearsay about his family from his family, so it is not to be doubted. That's why I'm taking it that way.
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Re: The gap between SSJ3 Gotenks & Mystic Gohan

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Sun Nov 08, 2015 1:49 pm

But Gohan says he was the strongest and that Boo was an idiot for not absorbing him. Regardless of what the kids want to say, Gohan knows he's more powerful than Gotenks.
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Re: The gap between SSJ3 Gotenks & Mystic Gohan

Post by Tectorman » Sun Nov 08, 2015 10:12 pm

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:But Gohan says he was the strongest and that Boo was an idiot for not absorbing him. Regardless of what the kids want to say, Gohan knows he's more powerful than Gotenks.
Which translation is that? Because mine just has Buutenks declaring that he absorbed Gotenks for power and Piccolo for intelligence, then Gohan asks why Buutenks didn't absorb him, and Buutenks giving his reason why. How is that Gohan saying he's stronger? I always took it as:

Gohan: So if you wanted to be the strongest, why not absorb me (also? Why absorb Gotenks and Piccolo instead of absorbing Gotenks, Piccolo, and Gohan and jumping straight to the top)?

Buutenks: Because I still needed someone to fight. Power is useless without someone to use it against. (Besides, I can always absorb you later.)

Gohan wasn't saying he was stronger than Gotenks. He was wondering why he wasn't yet absorbed. Unless you think that Gohan was under the impression that Buu absorbing him in addition to the others would have resulted in a weaker Buu.
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Re: The gap between SSJ3 Gotenks & Mystic Gohan

Post by dbzfan7 » Sun Nov 08, 2015 10:44 pm

Is there really a debate on if Gohan is stronger than Gotenks? Cause that's not a debate. Gohan is stronger clear as day. It's been said he is stronger. The guidebooks further support this too. How much stronger he is can be debated.

Maybe say:

Boo: 10
Gotenks: 12
Gohan: 17

Gaps could be smaller or larger. But so long as Bootenks can dominate Gohan and Gohan can dominate Super Boo, the gaps should be sound.
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Re: The gap between SSJ3 Gotenks & Mystic Gohan

Post by Wizard Sesame » Mon Nov 09, 2015 1:41 am

I always took Gotenks and Buu as being relatively even, with Buu purposefully allowing himself to be beat in order to be able to provoke the kids into fusing later on. After all, if he just took the punishment without any damage, the kids may not be willing to fuse if they really thought they had absolutely zero chance. It was all part of the long con by Buu, I feel.

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Re: The gap between SSJ3 Gotenks & Mystic Gohan

Post by miguelnuva1 » Tue Nov 10, 2015 2:43 am

Wizard Sesame wrote:I always took Gotenks and Buu as being relatively even, with Buu purposefully allowing himself to be beat in order to be able to provoke the kids into fusing later on. After all, if he just took the punishment without any damage, the kids may not be willing to fuse if they really thought they had absolutely zero chance. It was all part of the long con by Buu, I feel.
Buu wouldn't have absorbed Gotenks if he was close to Gohan. He had no problem insulting and owning SSJ Gotenks but when SSJ3 nearly kills him in 5 mins he still tries to fight that fight with his own power.

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Re: The gap between SSJ3 Gotenks & Mystic Gohan

Post by TheZFighter » Tue Nov 10, 2015 3:35 am

SSJ3 Vegeta wrote:The gap between Vegeta(vs.Recoome) and Recoome

Super Buu = 28

SSJ3 Gotenks = 30

Ultimate Gohan = 40

Buutenks = 58

If Gotenks spams his Ghost Attack,he may have a chance since that attack was able to hurt a guy 8x stronger than him.
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Re: The gap between SSJ3 Gotenks & Mystic Gohan

Post by Son Edo » Wed Nov 11, 2015 9:18 am

Daizenshuu on SSJ3 Gotenks - "Gotenks' most powerful form. In a few days' training, the two of them learn Super Saiyan 3, which took Goku many years to do. This form possesses the ability to fight equally with Majin Buu."

Daizenshuu on "Mystic" Gohan - "In order to defeat Majin Buu, he had his dormant power drawn out by the Elder Kaioshin. Even without becoming a Super Saiyan, he has power surpassing Gotenks."

So Daizenshuu goes by the Gohan > Gotenks = Boo.

Anime Subs after Boo absorbs Gohan - "This is great! I’m much more powered-up than before! But this time, there is no time limit!"

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Re: The gap between SSJ3 Gotenks & Mystic Gohan

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Nov 11, 2015 3:44 pm

Son Edo wrote:Daizenshuu on SSJ3 Gotenks - "Gotenks' most powerful form. In a few days' training, the two of them learn Super Saiyan 3, which took Goku many years to do. This form possesses the ability to fight equally with Majin Buu."

Daizenshuu on "Mystic" Gohan - "In order to defeat Majin Buu, he had his dormant power drawn out by the Elder Kaioshin. Even without becoming a Super Saiyan, he has power surpassing Gotenks."

So Daizenshuu goes by the Gohan > Gotenks = Boo.

Anime Subs after Boo absorbs Gohan - "This is great! I’m much more powered-up than before! But this time, there is no time limit!"
Interesting. There's also the fact Super Buu never said Gotenks surpassed him but then Trunks says Gohan is just a little bit stronger than him.

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Re: The gap between SSJ3 Gotenks & Mystic Gohan

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Wed Nov 11, 2015 6:35 pm

Trunks only said that after saying Gohan is as strong as Gotenks.

In other words, he's full of crap.
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Re: The gap between SSJ3 Gotenks & Mystic Gohan

Post by Hitiro » Wed Nov 11, 2015 7:47 pm

Tectorman wrote:
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:But Gohan says he was the strongest and that Boo was an idiot for not absorbing him. Regardless of what the kids want to say, Gohan knows he's more powerful than Gotenks.
Which translation is that? Because mine just has Buutenks declaring that he absorbed Gotenks for power and Piccolo for intelligence, then Gohan asks why Buutenks didn't absorb him, and Buutenks giving his reason why. How is that Gohan saying he's stronger? I always took it as:

Gohan: So if you wanted to be the strongest, why not absorb me (also? Why absorb Gotenks and Piccolo instead of absorbing Gotenks, Piccolo, and Gohan and jumping straight to the top)?

Buutenks: Because I still needed someone to fight. Power is useless without someone to use it against. (Besides, I can always absorb you later.)

Gohan wasn't saying he was stronger than Gotenks. He was wondering why he wasn't yet absorbed. Unless you think that Gohan was under the impression that Buu absorbing him in addition to the others would have resulted in a weaker Buu.
Strength Checker wrote:Chapter: 499 (DBZ 305), P13.1
Context: after Gotenks-absorbed Boo explains his plan
Gohan: “…Keh…So that’s how it was, huh?...However, despite prattling on so fluently, it seems your stupidity hasn’t changed. If you wanted to take 1st prize, it would have been simple enough to absorb me…!”
In the Japanese translation he refers to himself as "1st prize" so I would think it is clear that he thinks, at least, that he is above Gotenks.

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