Why is Movie 5 Cooler seen as stronger than Freeza?

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

precita
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5863
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:10 pm

Why is Movie 5 Cooler seen as stronger than Freeza?

Post by precita » Mon Nov 09, 2015 2:53 am

People say that because Cooler discovered a 4th transformation, that makes him stronger than Freeza.

Yet the moment Goku turned Super Saiyan in Movie 5, he was shown to be much more powerful than Cooler and beat him rather easily. Meanwhile when Goku was Super Saiyan on Namek, he was still shown to take a while to bring down 100% Freeza.

While Metal Cooler in Movie 6 is obviously much stronger than Freeza, I don't think Movie 5 Cooler was.

User avatar
Super Saiyan Turlast x4
I Live Here
Posts: 3379
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2005 12:45 am
Location: Philadelphia
Contact:

Re: Why is Movie 5 Cooler seen as stronger than Freeza?

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Mon Nov 09, 2015 3:26 am

Goku said Cooler Chi is greater than Freeza's, though.

This Goku is stated to be more powerful than he was since returning from namek.
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~

User avatar
B
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5561
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:15 am
Contact:

Re: Why is Movie 5 Cooler seen as stronger than Freeza?

Post by B » Mon Nov 09, 2015 8:15 am

Goku's been training the entire time he's been home(for the Androids, presumably).

Also, Coola is the big brother and Freeza is the family baby that gets coddled, so Coola must be stronger if Cold didn't think he needed the extra attention. Please do not take muh headcanon away from me.
Keen Observation of Dragon Ball Z Movie 4's Climax wrote:Slug shits to see the genki

User avatar
TheDevilsCorpse
Moderator
Posts: 11377
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 4:34 am
Contact:

Re: Why is Movie 5 Cooler seen as stronger than Freeza?

Post by TheDevilsCorpse » Mon Nov 09, 2015 8:50 am

B wrote:Also, Coola is the big brother and Freeza is the family baby that gets coddled, so Coola must be stronger if Cold didn't think he needed the extra attention. Please do not take muh headcanon away from me.
Fairly certain Coola is weaker than Freeza without his Super Evolution. So, I think the implication is that Freeza was so much stronger, that Cold just didn't pay much attention to the now disappointing older brother.
Direct translations of the Korean DB Online timeline and guidebook.
My personal "canon" and BP list. (Coming Soon)

User avatar
Kamiccolo9
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 10296
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:32 pm
Location: Regensburg, Germany

Re: Why is Movie 5 Cooler seen as stronger than Freeza?

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Mon Nov 09, 2015 11:08 am

I always saw it as Goku getting a fairly significant near death power boost from his recovery in Movie 5, since the movie was meant to mirror the Freeza Arc. I don't have a problem with even base Cooler being stronger than Freeza.

In fact, I could have sworn that I've seen some power level page that puts base Cooler at 140 million...but it was probably fake. I like the number, though.
Champion of the 1st Kanzenshuu Short Story Tenkaichi Budokai
Kamiccolo9's Kompendium of Short Stories
Cipher wrote:If Vegeta does not kill Gohan, I will stop illegally streaming the series.
Malik_DBNA wrote:
Scarz wrote:Malik, stop. People are asking me for lewd art of possessed Bra (with Vegeta).
"Achievement Unlocked: Rule 34"

User avatar
Polyphase Avatron
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6353
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:48 am

Re: Why is Movie 5 Cooler seen as stronger than Freeza?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Mon Nov 09, 2015 2:44 pm

I'm pretty sure Cooler said something about Freeza always being ahead of him until he discovered his new transformation. So form 4 Cooler < Form 4/Max Power Freeza < Form 5 Cooler.
Last edited by Polyphase Avatron on Mon Nov 09, 2015 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Cool stuff that I upload here because Youtube will copyright claim it: https://vimeo.com/user60967147

SSJ2FutureGohan
I Live Here
Posts: 2496
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2014 1:29 am

Re: Why is Movie 5 Cooler seen as stronger than Freeza?

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Mon Nov 09, 2015 3:06 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:I'm pretty sure Cooler said something about Freeza always being ahead of him until he discovered his new transformation. So form 4 Cooler > Form 4/Max Power Freeza > Form 5 Cooler.
That's a dub line, and your arrows are backwards. Otherwise I agree.

User avatar
Polyphase Avatron
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6353
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:48 am

Re: Why is Movie 5 Cooler seen as stronger than Freeza?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Mon Nov 09, 2015 5:58 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:
Polyphase Avatron wrote:I'm pretty sure Cooler said something about Freeza always being ahead of him until he discovered his new transformation. So form 4 Cooler > Form 4/Max Power Freeza > Form 5 Cooler.
That's a dub line, and your arrows are backwards. Otherwise I agree.
Oh sorry. I'll fix it.
Cool stuff that I upload here because Youtube will copyright claim it: https://vimeo.com/user60967147

User avatar
Hellspawn28
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 14246
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:50 pm
Location: Maryland, USA

Re: Why is Movie 5 Cooler seen as stronger than Freeza?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Mon Nov 09, 2015 9:36 pm

Goku in Movie 5 is likely stronger then he was on Namek. Coola's 5th form seems like it could be equal to Cyborg Freeza or maybe a bit stronger. Coola said that he is stronger then his brother, but he most likely has no idea about Cyborg Freeza.
PS4 username: Guyver_Spawn_27
MAL Profile: http://myanimelist.net/profile/Hellspawn28
LB Profile: https://letterboxd.com/Hellspawn28/

User avatar
RandomGuy96
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8842
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:57 pm
Location: San Diego, California, USA

Re: Why is Movie 5 Cooler seen as stronger than Freeza?

Post by RandomGuy96 » Tue Nov 10, 2015 3:57 am

According to the official guides (and movie 6), Goku has already trained on Yardrat, and has also been training in preparation for the androids. So he's way stronger than he was on Namek. As a demonstration of this, Trunks easily dispatched two Freeza-level guys with one hit each, and yet plainly admitted that Goku's power was much greater than his. Goku was even stronger than that when he fought Cooler.

The one-sidedness of Cooler and Goku's fight is also exaggerated. The argument is that, since Goku tanked Cooler's punch, he must be way, way, WAY more powerful. This is ignoring that:
A. It was likely a half-assed punch, given that he was just toying with Goku, and doesn't attempt to land a serious blow after that.
B. The blast that he launches at Goku right after, which Goku also tanked, wasn't even meant to hurt Goku; just distract him.
C. Characters tank things that they shouldn't all the time in Toei.

Meanwhile, the rest of the fight, as brief as it was, doesn't portray a vast difference in power. Goku rushes Cooler and lands a three-hit combo. Cooler staggers and is apparently hurt, yet is not significantly injured (contrast his brother after one solid hit from Goku). He laughs it off and carries on normally. Cooler decides to skip the whole fight and just launches his strongest attack, which he generated quickly and without visible strain. Goku struggles with it for a while before countering with his own energy attack. A "beam struggle" ensues in which Goku's Kamehameha overpowers the Supernova and Cooler is killed. However, Goku is left so depleted by the struggle that he can't maintain Super Saiyan, can't defend himself from a half-dead Salza, and can't even stand. If Piccolo hadn't stepped in, Goku would have died.

That doesn't really imply that Cooler is weaker than the guy who was way weaker than the guy who couldn't do crap to Goku's finger.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

User avatar
FoolsGil
I Live Here
Posts: 4486
Joined: Tue May 21, 2013 10:37 pm

Re: Why is Movie 5 Cooler seen as stronger than Freeza?

Post by FoolsGil » Tue Nov 10, 2015 8:04 am

It is definitely possible for Cooler to be stronger than Freeza and still lose to Super Saiyan. Super Saiyan is a 50x multiplier-That is a large gap of power from base. Freeza at 100% probably could have been beaten at a multiplier of 35 for example, and 5th form Cooler could have beaten at multiplier of 40, but because Super Saiyan automatically goes up to 50, both would still be crushed.

Now yes, having the 5th Form be equal to Super Saiyan would have been a better fight to watch, but even so it's still easy to point out how Cooler is stronger than Freeza.

User avatar
Polyphase Avatron
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6353
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:48 am

Re: Why is Movie 5 Cooler seen as stronger than Freeza?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Tue Nov 10, 2015 10:15 pm

He was also confident he could beat the person who killed his brother.
Cool stuff that I upload here because Youtube will copyright claim it: https://vimeo.com/user60967147

User avatar
Son Edo
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 417
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2010 6:35 am
Location: Australia

Re: Why is Movie 5 Cooler seen as stronger than Freeza?

Post by Son Edo » Wed Nov 11, 2015 10:05 am

My head is dusty on this movie. I assume it's something like

Final form Coola > Full power 4th form Freeza > Full power 4th form Coola.

User avatar
Speedster
Regular
Posts: 523
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2015 8:15 pm
Location: Planet Earth

Re: Why is Movie 5 Cooler seen as stronger than Freeza?

Post by Speedster » Wed Nov 11, 2015 6:29 pm

I always assumed that the movie was a what-if scenario. What if Goku never stayed to train at planet Yardrat and came back to Earth directly with the Dragonballs when Porunga asked him. He did stay of course 130 days until that wish was made so he did learn the instant transmission technique which we know he could use in movie 6. Having not trained to master his SSJ from explains why in the movie he could not turn Super Saiyan at will and had to come to the brink of losing his friends to spontaneously transform.

Of course Goku could have increased the power level of his base form via a Zenkai boost and/or training on Earth (for whatever period of time had passed) resulting to the power level of his SSJ form to increase as well. If we accept that the multiplier is x50 going from 3million to 3.4million for his base would result his SSJ to be 170 million. Cooler's 4th form might had been like 100 million and his 5th form 130million (he said in the movie he discovered this transformation that gave him the EDGE over his little brother - this doesn't imply that their gap was big but rather if they fought each other he would eventually win even that meant to struggle a bit).

precita
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5863
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:10 pm

Re: Why is Movie 5 Cooler seen as stronger than Freeza?

Post by precita » Wed Nov 11, 2015 6:41 pm

The thing is when Goku goes Super Saiyan in the film, he doesn't act like its an all new transformation at all. Also none of the other characters wonder why Goku is a Super Saiyan, they all just accept it. Nobody comments on it.

Feels like Goku could have went Super Saiyan all throughout the film but prefered to fight Cooler in his base form for some stupid reason.

User avatar
Polyphase Avatron
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6353
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:48 am

Re: Why is Movie 5 Cooler seen as stronger than Freeza?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Wed Nov 11, 2015 10:51 pm

I always just saw it as an inconsistency - in the manga/anime when he returns to Earth he can go SSJ at will, but in the movie he was unable to control it yet like on Namek.
Cool stuff that I upload here because Youtube will copyright claim it: https://vimeo.com/user60967147

User avatar
RandomGuy96
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8842
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:57 pm
Location: San Diego, California, USA

Re: Why is Movie 5 Cooler seen as stronger than Freeza?

Post by RandomGuy96 » Thu Nov 12, 2015 1:25 am

Polyphase Avatron wrote:I always just saw it as an inconsistency - in the manga/anime when he returns to Earth he can go SSJ at will, but in the movie he was unable to control it yet like on Namek.
This happens in EVERY movie. Goku holds back when he has no reason to, and only uses his full power after he's been dominated for a while. Movie 7 is just as bad as Movie 5 in this regard.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

User avatar
Geekdom101
Regular
Posts: 502
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2015 9:50 pm
Location: Universe 7
Contact:

Re: Why is Movie 5 Cooler seen as stronger than Freeza?

Post by Geekdom101 » Thu Nov 12, 2015 5:38 am

RandomGuy96 wrote:
Polyphase Avatron wrote:I always just saw it as an inconsistency - in the manga/anime when he returns to Earth he can go SSJ at will, but in the movie he was unable to control it yet like on Namek.
This happens in EVERY movie. Goku holds back when he has no reason to, and only uses his full power after he's been dominated for a while. Movie 7 is just as bad as Movie 5 in this regard.
Yes every movie villain is JUST AS STRONG as they need to be for that time. Cooler can't touch movie 12 Goku.
"Allow me to show you... my further evolution"

OFFICIAL Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCgIqhB ... yUSp71VCOQ

User avatar
SuicidalZerg
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 325
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 12:01 am
Location: Utah, United States.
Contact:

Re: Why is Movie 5 Cooler seen as stronger than Freeza?

Post by SuicidalZerg » Thu Nov 12, 2015 10:37 pm

The way I see it, is that while the "Multiplier" might be 50x, that's 50x their current strength. Goku was actually quite drained immediately before his first SSJ transformation in his fight with Freeza, due to taking a long, drawn-out pounding. I doubt he was any where near as tired when he fought Coola, thus the increase in strength.
Nozawaberries commercial: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mdqta3iB6ZM

Twitch stream: http://www.twitch.tv/suicidalzerg
Planet Minecraft skins: http://www.planetminecraft.com/member/son_gohan/
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/user/SC2SuicidalZerg
NA Battle tag: SuicidalZerg.158
MC username: SuicidalZerg

Captain Strawberry
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1265
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:59 pm
Location: Where I wander

Re: Why is Movie 5 Cooler seen as stronger than Freeza?

Post by Captain Strawberry » Fri Nov 13, 2015 12:55 pm

Base Goku in Movie 5 would probably whoop Frieza especially with Kaioken.
Kuro Tenshi

I am just a simple traveller

Post Reply