Could we agree with a model for Dragon Ball?

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Truhan
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Could we agree with a model for Dragon Ball?

Post by Truhan » Thu Nov 12, 2015 5:18 am

Where characters have attributes like strength, speed and stamina, with strength being the primary attribute that is being measured? I'll explain why in the context of Graded SSJ transformations, but let's also address one problem with power: it's being used instead of strength when it could also mean Ki amount in Dragon Ball. I believe that power equals strength, because that's the primary attribute that is being fueled, but energy has been used to replace Ki sometimes, and could be often mistaken with stamina, so this is where we have to draw the line.

Strength - the characters' physical power.
Speed - how fast the characters are.
Stamina - the characters' endurance.
Power - Ki amount of the characters.

SSJ Grades - We know that Grade II fueled Vegeta's strength and speed, but something else must have taken a hit, and that is stamina. With muscles swollen like that, it's possible that he could endure less in that form. Did he waste power though? Or did he assign Ki from stamina to his strength and speed? He didn't seem all that wasted before launching Final Flash, after all. Trunks is another story, with strength becoming more apparent than the other attributes, specially after losing speed.

SSJ Numbered - Contrary to SSJ Grades, all of the attritubes are increased evenly, but with what I believe is a power loss or consumption. It's not constant though, because it's only a trigger for the transformation, which allows the characters to remain in that form. Whatever shortage of power there is can also be charged later, and once their limit is reached, they turn "full power". This is how Goku is allowed to show portions of his power without affecting the current state he is in.

Let's test this with a proposition:

Goku was only 50% of his Full Power as a SSJ. Was he 50% FPSSJ instead? "Full Power" SSJ should have the same multiplier as a SSJ, only with maximized Ki. If it meant strength instead, half of it would put him outside his state, with 25 in his attribute. Same thing for SSJ2 Gohan when his power was cut by half: he didn't go back to SSJ because half of SSJ2's multiplier is 50. So what is the solution then? Use Power or Ki amount, because it makes sense.

---

I want you to bring more propositions to be tested. Help will be appreciated.

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Hitiro
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Re: Could we agree with a model for Dragon Ball?

Post by Hitiro » Thu Nov 12, 2015 6:59 am

Strength is pretty much synonymous with Ki though. By increasing your physical power you increase your Ki, Goku states this in the RoSaT. On the opposite side of this increasing Ki will always increase strength too. Just increasing Ki is the safest way to go about increasing your physical strength because you will amplify all stats by increasing Ki rather than possibly only amplifying one stat like Grade 3 does. Also Goku pretty much says it's difficult to maintain SSJ when he is in the RoSaT so there is both a power cost in transforming and a power cost in maintaining the transformation. Goku and Gohan just worked to reduce this strain on their power supply by as much as possible. "Full Power" SSJ is a vary bad name for what the form is actually about. Because Goku and the others have always been able to use their maximum Ki in their SSJ forms. This upgrade is basically to give them more stamina for fights. That's all.

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Re: Could we agree with a model for Dragon Ball?

Post by Truhan » Thu Nov 12, 2015 7:46 am

Hitiro wrote:Strength is pretty much synonymous with Ki though. By increasing your physical power you increase your Ki, Goku states this in the RoSaT. On the opposite side of this increasing Ki will always increase strength too. Just increasing Ki is the safest way to go about increasing your physical strength because you will amplify all stats by increasing Ki rather than possibly only amplifying one stat like Grade 3 does. Also Goku pretty much says it's difficult to maintain SSJ when he is in the RoSaT so there is both a power cost in transforming and a power cost in maintaining the transformation. Goku and Gohan just worked to reduce this strain on their power supply by as much as possible. "Full Power" SSJ is a vary bad name for what the form is actually about. Because Goku and the others have always been able to use their maximum Ki in their SSJ forms. This upgrade is basically to give them more stamina for fights. That's all.
I'm going to appeal to Ki that is being consumed and Ki that is part of the characters' resources, which doesn't contradict your view nor mine. If Goku has full resources and we don't know about them, then he is obviously not using them. When he powers up something, be it his strength or speed, then he's revealing it. That's why he could appear to have reached his limit when there were no more resources to be used. Case in point: Piccolo mentions that Goku's condition doesn't allow him to have a Full Power output against the Androids similar to that of his previous reference. If anything was improved, it was the removal of strain in his body, allowing his Ki to regenerate through resting. That is why his SSJ was used as a new Base state, allowing him to not waste Ki. However, strength, speed and stamina were all the same, since they were based on 50 times his Base attributes. Here's an example:

[Base Goku]

[] Strength
[] Speed
[] Stamina
[][][][][][][][][][] Power

[SSJ Goku]

[][][][][] Strength
[][][][][] Speed
[][][][][] Stamina
[][][][][] Power

[Mastered SSJ]

[][][][][] Strength
[][][][][] Speed
[][][][][] Stamina
[][][][][][][][][][] Power

[SSJ Grade II]

[][][][][][] Strength
[][][][][][] Speed
[][][] Stamina
[][][][][] Power

[SSJ Grade III]

[][][][][][][][] Strength
[][][][] Speed
[][][][] Stamina
[][][][][] Power

It's how the attributes are related to his power that defines how strong, fast and resilient Goku is. Here's a SSJ2 from Mastered SSJ:

[SSJ2]

[][][][][][][][][][] Strength
[][][][][][][][][][] Speed
[][][][][][][][][][] Stamina
[][][][][] Power

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Re: Could we agree with a model for Dragon Ball?

Post by Hitiro » Thu Nov 12, 2015 7:58 am

Truhan wrote:
Hitiro wrote:Strength is pretty much synonymous with Ki though. By increasing your physical power you increase your Ki, Goku states this in the RoSaT. On the opposite side of this increasing Ki will always increase strength too. Just increasing Ki is the safest way to go about increasing your physical strength because you will amplify all stats by increasing Ki rather than possibly only amplifying one stat like Grade 3 does. Also Goku pretty much says it's difficult to maintain SSJ when he is in the RoSaT so there is both a power cost in transforming and a power cost in maintaining the transformation. Goku and Gohan just worked to reduce this strain on their power supply by as much as possible. "Full Power" SSJ is a vary bad name for what the form is actually about. Because Goku and the others have always been able to use their maximum Ki in their SSJ forms. This upgrade is basically to give them more stamina for fights. That's all.
I'm going to appeal to Ki that is being consumed and Ki that is part of the characters' resources, which doesn't contradict your view nor mine. If Goku has full resources and we don't know about them, then he is obviously not using them. When he powers up something, be it his strength or speed, then he's revealing it. That's why he could appear to have reached his limit when there were no more resources to be used. Case in point: Piccolo mentions that Goku's condition doesn't allow him to have a Full Power output against the Androids similar to that of his previous reference. If anything was improved, it was the removal of strain in his body, allowing his Ki to regenerate through resting. That is why his SSJ was used as his new Base state, allowing him to not waste Ki. However, strength, speed and stamina were all the same, since they were based on 50 times his Base attributes. Here's an example:

[Base Goku]

[] Strength
[] Speed
[] Stamina
[][][][][][][][][][] Power

[SSJ Goku]

[][][][][] Strength
[][][][][] Speed
[][][][][] Stamina
[][][][][] Power

[Mastered SSJ]

[][][][][] Strength
[][][][][] Speed
[][][][][] Stamina
[][][][][][][][][][] Power

[SSJ Grade II]

[][][][][][] Strength
[][][][][][] Speed
[][][] Stamina
[][][][][] Power

[SSJ Grade III]

[][][][][][][][] Strength
[][][][] Speed
[][][][] Stamina
[][][][][] Power

It's how the attributes are related to his power that defines how strong, fast and resilient Goku is.
Piccolo's statement is a bad point to use because at the time Goku was suffering from the heart virus. That is why he couldn't output his full power against the androids. The issue with what you're suggesting is that the characters know when another character is using full power or not. So there can't be a discrepancy between Ki being consumed and Ki being used as part of a character's resources. Otherwise they would be able to fake how much power their full power is or they would never reach full power. Because if, as you say, they allocate their Ki to boosting strength and Ki then they would never be at full power. Likewise if you're suggesting that the Ki that isn't allocated as their resources is what they sense then all they have to do is allocate 99% of this Ki to their stats and then their small Ki which you would sense as their full power would be incorrect by a wide margin. It would be like you going up against a person who has a battle power of 1,000 and thinking you can win but really 99,000 of their battle power has been shifted into their stats.

Also, as I said. Ki amplifies your stats naturally. So FPSSJ Goku would have higher stats if you're saying he has more Ki at his disposal.

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Re: Could we agree with a model for Dragon Ball?

Post by Truhan » Thu Nov 12, 2015 8:14 am

Hitiro wrote:Piccolo's statement is a bad point to use because at the time Goku was suffering from the heart virus. That is why he couldn't output his full power against the androids. The issue with what you're suggesting is that the characters know when another character is using full power or not.


Piccolo's statement meant exactly what Herms noted down to help our interpretation: Goku, while having reached Full Power, was not even close to his previous output, due to his miserable condition, and I may add that said condition is what didn't allow Goku to rest (i.e. his resources were not full). Since transformations are fixed multipliers, according to some official guides, Piccolo would know how much power was being used or not, and how depleted Goku was.
So there can't be a discrepancy between Ki being consumed and Ki being used as part of a character's resources. Otherwise they would be able to fake how much power their full power is or they would never reach full power.
Which is exactly what Cell had been doing, and what Goku showed in front of Karin: half of his full power.
Because if, as you say, they allocate their Ki to boosting strength and Ki then they would never be at full power.
No, if FPSSJ Goku decided to allocate the Ki that was fueling his attributes towards one or two, like strength and speed, he would still be at Full Power, because he is only allocating the Ki that was already powering him up. Like Trunks suggested, his new power would allow a more dramatic transformation (i.e. new Grade), which Vegeta shot down, and was proved wrong when Gohan transformed into SSJ2.
Also, as I said. Ki amplifies your stats naturally. So FPSSJ Goku would have higher stats if you're saying he has more Ki at his disposal.
The attributes are based on the same multipliers applied to his stats. FPSSJ is the same increase as a SSJ, only with maximized Ki.

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Re: Could we agree with a model for Dragon Ball?

Post by Hitiro » Thu Nov 12, 2015 8:44 am

Truhan wrote:
Hitiro wrote:Piccolo's statement is a bad point to use because at the time Goku was suffering from the heart virus. That is why he couldn't output his full power against the androids. The issue with what you're suggesting is that the characters know when another character is using full power or not.


Piccolo's statement meant exactly what Herms noted down to help our interpretation: Goku, while having reached Full Power, was not even close to his previous output, due to his miserable condition, and I may add that said condition is what didn't allow Goku to rest (i.e. his resources were not full). Since transformations are fixed multipliers, according to some official guides, Piccolo would know how much power was being used or not, and how depleted Goku was.
Goku was not at full power.
Strength Checker wrote:Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P8.4-5, P9.
Piccolo: “Have you noticed too, Gohan?...”
Gohan: “Y-yes…”
Piccolo: “Son Goku is rushing the match for some reason…He’s already putting out close to his full power…But even so, what’s with that miserable condition of his?...”
But regardless your condition does affect your Ki. I never said it didn't. But that has no bearing on what you said. It is not applicable to your current point which is why I said it was a bad point to make because there is a key difference between being ill and not being ill. You can't use an example in which is clearly undefined behavior as a point. Because the variables are different. It is like when you said that SSJ Trunks must be stronger than his dad because he had no trouble in the gravity chamber when there is a stark difference between Vegeta and Trunks in terms of size and weight. Of course he is going to be able to handle the environment better if he is almost as strong as the adult Saiyan's but has to deal with being half the weight of Vegeta so therefore he would be able to go up to 2x the amount of gravity Vegeta would struggle in. So you can't provide a point that is clearly unrelatable unless shown otherwise.
Truhan wrote:
So there can't be a discrepancy between Ki being consumed and Ki being used as part of a character's resources. Otherwise they would be able to fake how much power their full power is or they would never reach full power.
Which is exactly what Cell had been doing, and what Goku showed in front of Karin: half of his full power.
All Goku and Cell did was to suppress their Ki levels to half. That doesn't mean they have two states of Ki as you're suggesting. The characters don't allocate blocks of their Ki to do a specific job it is more natural than that.
Truhan wrote:
Because if, as you say, they allocate their Ki to boosting strength and Ki then they would never be at full power.
No, if FPSSJ Goku decided to allocate the Ki that was fueling his attributes towards one or two, like strength and speed, he would still be at Full Power, because he is only allocating the Ki that was already powering him up. Like Trunks suggested, his new power would allow a more dramatic transformation (i.e. new Grade), which Vegeta shot down, and was proved wrong when Gohan transformed into SSJ2.
Goku doesn't "allocate" his Ki to attributes. This is naturally done just by having your Ki at full power. The only time you can allocate your power in the manner you suggest is if you bulk up your muscles through transformations. But that is a different matter entirely. Therefore it isn't fair to say he is fueling his attributes but rather amplifying them by increasing his Ki. You make it sound as if they are somehow sacrificing their Ki to get these stats increases. Which as the story would indicate isn't true because their stats only increase when their Ki is shown to increase or vice-versa.
Truhan wrote:
Also, as I said. Ki amplifies your stats naturally. So FPSSJ Goku would have higher stats if you're saying he has more Ki at his disposal.
The attributes are based on the same multipliers applied to his stats. FPSSJ is the same increase as a SSJ, only with maximized Ki.
Goku's Ki is already maximized as a regular SSJ. There is no further increase to his Ki just by being "Full Power" SSJ. That's why I said the name is a bad name for the form because it isn't the case that he can't use his full Ki just as a regular SSJ. If Goku's Ki isn't maximized as a regular SSJ then how was he ever using his full power in all of the fights prior to this? Neither does the point that they can't use their full power ever be made. The only advantage to having FPSSJ according to what was said is a reduced strain on their power. That just means they can fight longer because they will lose energy at a slower rate.

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Re: Could we agree with a model for Dragon Ball?

Post by Truhan » Thu Nov 12, 2015 8:57 am

Look, try not to complicate things further, specially by resorting to pedantry, ok? "Goku was only close to his full power..." I mean, please! And this is my model we're discussing, so if you want to impose yours, then create your own thread. The only thing I asked for were propositions for me to test this model, not to have the model itself tore apart by your own. There's only so much one can do to remain productive, and here you are playing the role of a critique. This is the In-Universe Discussion section though, so I should have known...

As a last point, before I proceed ignoring any non-contribution (which doesn't mean having to agree with it), SSJ Goku isn't always 50 times more his base stats, but at a point where he has used that much power to increase them without wasting it anymore. Further increases in power, with or without an even distribution, are going to waste it. Think of it like a car: you shift your gear to the fourth, and you accelerate. If you stop accelerating, then your speed will decrease to an amount that feels natural with the 4th gear, instead of going down further, where it asks for a new one. This is how they could change between transformations: use them as thresholds to translate power that is being used to their current attributes.

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Re: Could we agree with a model for Dragon Ball?

Post by Hitiro » Thu Nov 12, 2015 9:07 am

Truhan wrote:Look, try not to complicate things further, specially by resorting to pedantry, ok? "Goku was only close to his full power..." I mean, please! And this is my model we're discussing, so if you want to impose yours, then create your own thread. The only thing I asked for were propositions for me to test this model, not to have the model itself tore apart by your own. There's only so much one can do to remain productive, and here you are playing the role of a critique. This is the In-Universe Discussion section though, so I should have known...

As a last point, before I proceed ignoring any non-contribution (which doesn't mean having to agree with it), SSJ Goku isn't always 50 times more his base stats, but at a point where he has used that much power to increase them without wasting it anymore. Further increases in power, with or without an even distribution, are going to waste it. Think of it like a car: you shift your gear to the fourth, and you accelerate. If you stop accelerating, then your speed will decrease to an amount that feels natural with the 4th gear, instead of going down further, where it asks for a new one. This is how they could change between transformations: use them as thresholds to translate power that is being used to their current attributes.
You misunderstand. The 50x is applied to his Ki. Not his base stats. His base stats are amplified by his Ki. The SSJ multiplier will always be 50x it doesn't vary unless the transformation is altered via the graded forms or by using a new SSJ form. His stats will fluctuate with his Ki which is amplifying them. And with the Piccolo statement I was only correcting you for future reference. But as I said, the point is really a null one considering it is an outlier so it can't really be used as a point to back up your claim.

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Re: Could we agree with a model for Dragon Ball?

Post by Truhan » Thu Nov 12, 2015 1:30 pm

I have tried to distract myself from this the whole afternoon, but is it really hard to understand that the power that is fueling your attributes is also the one that is being read by the others? Your resources are hidden, nobody senses them if you don't use them. It's like being rich and not dressing accordingly to your wealth, because you don't waste money on clothing, and so nobody is going to tell. If you have expensive clothes, others will be able to tell that you are rich, even if you don't have the same money, because you already wasted it through consumption (i.e. shopping).

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Re: Could we agree with a model for Dragon Ball?

Post by Hitiro » Thu Nov 12, 2015 3:29 pm

Truhan wrote:I have tried to distract myself from this the whole afternoon, but is it really hard to understand that the power that is fueling your attributes is also the one that is being read by the others? Your resources are hidden, nobody senses them if you don't use them. It's like being rich and not dressing accordingly to your wealth, because you don't waste money on clothing, and so nobody is going to tell. If you have expensive clothes, others will be able to tell that you are rich, even if you don't have the same money, because you already wasted it through consumption (i.e. shopping).
Why is it hard to understand? As you increase your Ki so does the amplification of your stats increase. For lack of a better explanation it would be something like this:

Base Goku(50%)
Ki: 50 < What is sensed.
Base Strength: 5
Base Speed: 5
Strength amplified by Ki: 5*50= 250
Speed amplified by Ki: 5*50= 250

Base Goku(100%)
Ki: 100 < What is sensed.
Base Strength: 5
Base Speed: 5
Strength amplified by Ki: 5*50= 500
Speed amplified by Ki: 5*50= 500

When a character isn't using 100% of their Ki then the opponent knows. They can feel something is missing. You can check any battle involving characters who can sense each others Ki. They only know someones maximum Ki output once they use it. So when Freeza said he only needed about half of his power to fight Goku, Goku knew he wasn't using his full power but he didn't think he was using so little of his power. There is however an alternate to what I said above and that is when a character is using so much of their power but intentionally doesn't hit hard or doesn't put that much effort into it. But their stats are the same. So Goku may be using 100% and throw his punch at you but if he doesn't swing all out then he is pulling his punches to reduce the damage on his opponent but you still have free reign of his amplified stats. He could still choose to deck them as hard as he wanted or simply choose not to. Suppressing Ki can only be taken so far when your power starts becoming massive. That's why Goku and the others had to tap the punching machine in conjection with suppressing their Ki as much as they could. Akira Toriyama said himself that as your Ki grows it becomes harder and harder for you control it. So Ki control is another important factor to training.
We asked Akira Toriyama! 2013 wrote:What are the requirements for becoming strong?
There are physical limits to the strength of the body itself, so in order to overcome that barrier, it’s necessary to increase your “ki”. Normally, the more you increase your ki, the harder it is to control, so ki control is also important.
From your example, while you can't tell how much money someone has, in this case you still know they have more than what they are presenting. But if they literally throw all their money at you then you know that is the full amount they can have.

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Re: Could we agree with a model for Dragon Ball?

Post by Truhan » Thu Nov 12, 2015 6:20 pm

See, this is what I mean... I proposed a model for you to counter with yours? No one is the authority in Dragon Ball here, so any model works fine as long as there are examples for us to exercise our logic. I only asked for DB events to check if it's valid or not, on my own, and not to be told about it with a different perspective. Let me provide you with an example for you to test your model, to see if you catch on to this thread's purpose, no matter how unlikely it is to be of any other person who wants to participate (i.e. you made it clear that it's yours).

Event Number 1

Piccolo charges his power for a Ki attack. Is he likely to punch a hole through Raditz with the same power?

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Re: Could we agree with a model for Dragon Ball?

Post by Hitiro » Thu Nov 12, 2015 6:49 pm

Truhan wrote:See, this is what I mean... I proposed a model for you to counter with yours? No one is the authority in Dragon Ball here, so any model works fine as long as there are examples for us to exercise our logic. I only asked for DB events to check if it's valid or not, on my own, and not to be told about it with a different perspective. Let me provide you with an example for you to test your model, to see if you catch on to this thread's purpose, no matter how unlikely it is to be of any other person who wants to participate (i.e. you made it clear that it's yours).

Event Number 1

Piccolo charges his power for a Ki attack. Is he likely to punch a hole through Raditz with the same power?
It's not really a model I come up with. I'm using facts from the manga and the Daizenshuu. The Daizenshuu says the 50x multiplier is applied to their battle power which is their Ki. We know this because Vegeta literally calls Ki, battle power whenever he is sensing. He even says he learnt how to suppress his battle power on earth whereas Goku and the others call it suppressing Ki.

And unless Piccolo could put his Ki to the level of his Ki attack then yes. He could certainly kill Raditz. Maybe not punch a hole through him because the Makankosappo was a Ki attack that pierces like the Kienzan slices much more powerful opponents. But then the Ki he put into the attack was amplified by the Ki technique itself. That is why it was that high. He can't bring his actual bodily Ki up to that level at the time of the fight. Otherwise he would have been able to handle Raditz.

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Re: Could we agree with a model for Dragon Ball?

Post by Truhan » Thu Nov 12, 2015 6:50 pm

Good. Can you provide an example for me to test my model? You already tested yours.

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Re: Could we agree with a model for Dragon Ball?

Post by Hitiro » Fri Nov 13, 2015 4:32 am

I'm not sure why you want to test this model. We know for a fact that what the transformations do is multiply your original Ki levels. And, as I said, strength and Ki are already synonymous with each other. So if Gohan loses half of his Ki as from the proposed test you provided in the OP then his stats will also decrease by the appropriate amount because less Ki is amplifying his stats. What isn't clear is how proportional the two stats are. When Goku explains the Kaioken he pretty much says that all his stats increase linearly with each other. But that may just be a feature of the technique, it could be possible that Ki amplifies their other stats in weird ways like cubic or exponential in growth. If that were the case then it would make sense why Kaioken would stop being used as Kaioken would be a technique that imposes a linear increase in power.

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Re: Could we agree with a model for Dragon Ball?

Post by Truhan » Fri Nov 13, 2015 3:58 pm

So, does everything come down to Ki = Power = Highest Stat? Say, Burter is quite fast, so speed is what the others read even if the distribution is uneven, kinda like Trunks powering up his strength. It makes sense that Power should increase them evenly, for SSJ Vegeta to surpass a SSJ3, with the latter and SSJ2 being strength increases (according to the SEG).

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Re: Could we agree with a model for Dragon Ball?

Post by Hitiro » Fri Nov 13, 2015 8:32 pm

Truhan wrote:So, does everything come down to Ki = Power = Highest Stat? Say, Burter is quite fast, so speed is what the others read even if the distribution is uneven, kinda like Trunks powering up his strength. It makes sense that Power should increase them evenly, for SSJ Vegeta to surpass a SSJ3, with the latter and SSJ2 being strength increases (according to the SEG).
Butta being fast could just be down to his base speed stat being higher than normal. So the Ki amplification would give him a higher benefit than others. It's like Goku's durability being a plot point during dragon ball. Even when he was fighting opponents who are the same level as him his durability has always been an advantage. Because Saiyan's are probably naturally more durable than other races because they come from a planet with 10x Earth's gravity. It seems that Freeza's race are also have a lot of durability and survivability. So it could just be that Butta's physical speed limit is higher than other races before it is amplified by Ki. Essentially:

Goku
Ki: 100
Strength: 5
Speed: 5
Strength Ki amplified: 500
Speed Ki amplified: 500

Butta
Ki: 100
Strength: 5
Speed: 6
Strength Ki amplified: 500
Speed Ki amplified: 600

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Re: Could we agree with a model for Dragon Ball?

Post by Truhan » Sat Nov 14, 2015 5:31 am

Ok, last question, because this is still something that confuses me: how can SSJ Goku be half of his power and not revert to base? Or how can Gohan lose half of his power and remain a SSJ2? "Full Power" could be like Freeza's 100% state (i.e. it doubles the 50x multiplier into 100x), but then it still wouldn't justify Gohan dropping to 100x as well.

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Re: Could we agree with a model for Dragon Ball?

Post by Hitiro » Sat Nov 14, 2015 9:52 am

Truhan wrote:Ok, last question, because this is still something that confuses me: how can SSJ Goku be half of his power and not revert to base? Or how can Gohan lose half of his power and remain a SSJ2? "Full Power" could be like Freeza's 100% state (i.e. it doubles the 50x multiplier into 100x), but then it still wouldn't justify Gohan dropping to 100x as well.
Why would lowering your Ki revert you? If Goku transforms while he is suppressed to 50% then his SSJ3 form will amplify that 50% rather than amplify the full 100% of his Ki. All the SSJ transformations do is amplify whatever Ki you currently have. Halving the Ki is still at 50x mulitplier. The multiplier doesn't change. Only the value that is being multiplied. For example:

SSJ2 Gohan(uninjured)
Base Ki: 10
SSJ2 Ki: 10*100 = 1,000

SSJ2 Gohan(injured)
Base Ki: 5(After being injured he loses half of his original Ki)
SSJ2 Ki: 5*100= 500

As you can see it wasn't the 100x multiplier that changed. It was the Ki the transformation was amplifying.

Truhan
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Re: Could we agree with a model for Dragon Ball?

Post by Truhan » Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:32 am

I think you're replying to one argument at a time and not making sense with your own logic as a whole, because what you just said now supports a model where Ki is not how strong a character gets, it's only a resource for power. Here's a last attempt at defining a model, with resources being my own interpretation of Ki, while power is the multiplier:

[Base Gohan]

Strength - 10 * 1 | Speed - 10 * 1 | Stamina - 10 * 1 | Power - 1 | Resources - 2000 | Total - 1 * 2000 = 2000

[SSJ Gohan]

Strength - 10 * 50 | Speed - 10 * 50 | Stamina - 10 * 50 | Power - 50 | Resources - 40 | Total - 50 * 40 = 2000

[SSJ2 Gohan]

Strength - 10 * 100 | Speed - 10 * 100 | Stamina - 10 * 100 | Power - 100 | Resources - 20 | Total - 100 * 20 = 2000

[Injured SSJ2 Gohan]

Strength - 10 * 100 | Speed - 10 * 100 | Stamina - 10 * 100 | Power - 100 | Resources - 10 | Total - 100 * 10 = 1000

It means that his resources (Ki) dropped to half while he kept his power or multiplier (i.e. the thing that amplifies the characters' attributes). Goku could be using 50 times the power to increase his attributes, while showcasing only half of his Ki, which means he would be 50% of his total. Gohan's total (which is only a placeholder name) was not enough to go against Cell's Kamehameha.

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Hitiro
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Re: Could we agree with a model for Dragon Ball?

Post by Hitiro » Sat Nov 14, 2015 11:37 am

Truhan wrote:I think you're replying to one argument at a time and not making sense with your own logic as a whole, because what you just said now supports a model where Ki is not how strong a character gets, it's only a resource for power. Here's a last attempt at defining a model, with resources being my own interpretation of Ki, while power is the multiplier:

[Base Gohan]

Strength - 10 * 1 | Speed - 10 * 1 | Stamina - 10 * 1 | Power - 1 | Resources - 2000 | Total - 1 * 2000 = 2000

[SSJ Gohan]

Strength - 10 * 50 | Speed - 10 * 50 | Stamina - 10 * 50 | Power - 50 | Resources - 40 | Total - 50 * 40 = 2000

[SSJ2 Gohan]

Strength - 10 * 100 | Speed - 10 * 100 | Stamina - 10 * 100 | Power - 100 | Resources - 20 | Total - 100 * 20 = 2000

[Injured SSJ2 Gohan]

Strength - 10 * 100 | Speed - 10 * 100 | Stamina - 10 * 100 | Power - 100 | Resources - 10 | Total - 100 * 10 = 1000

It means that his resources (Ki) dropped to half while he kept his power or multiplier (i.e. the thing that amplifies the characters' attributes). Goku could be using 50 times the power to increase his attributes, while showcasing only half of his Ki, which means he would be 50% of his total. Gohan's total (which is only a placeholder name) was not enough to go against Cell's Kamehameha.
No, I'm saying that naturally having high Ki amplifies your stats. It isn't a resource you spend to get the strength you suggest. It is your strength. If you're injured your Ki is reduced because Ki is both a physical and spiritual energy. Characters are weaker when they are hurt. They are also weaker when their mindset is bad. For example, being scared hurts how much Ki you're putting out. This is supported by Akira Toriyama's statement with one of the categories for Ki being Youki(Bravery) is one asset to Ki. If you're scared and not being brave then your Ki will diminish. Your numbers are illogical because from the examples you put above it would mean that Gohan is still as strong as he was even while losing half of his Ki. Which is just untrue. Because we have direct statements saying Gohan has lost too much Ki and he won't be able to beat Cell with the amount of Ki he has left. It would also mean that Ki is not an indicator of how strong a person is but rather how long they can maintain their full strength. If we look at it this way then let's say Oob has a power of 10 in your example. But his resources are 1,000,000,000. What you're saying Goku would sense is 10 billion as Power * Resource = Total. But then Oob is extremely weak because all of his stats are amplified by power rather than his resources. In effect:

Oob
Strength: 10*10 = 100
Speed: 10*10= 100
Stamina: 10*10 = 100
Power: 10
Resources: 1,000,000,000
Total: 10*1,000,000,000 = 10,000,000,000

SSJ3 Goku
Strength: 10*400 = 4,000
Speed: 10*400 = 4,000
Stamina: 10*400 = 4,000
Power: 400
Resources: 3,000,000
Total: 400*3,000,000 = 1,200,000,000

As you can see above Goku is almost 10 times lower than Oob from his total but he is 40 times greater in his stats. So therefore sensing Ki should amount to nothing because it would always be unreliable.

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